Making a mountain out of many molehills?

[Bomber0104]

Yzerman doesn't seem to understand this right now. Weird.

Dubas also brought in plenty of tough and fighting players while was the Marlies GM. Brought in guys like Clune, Johnson, signed Marchment as a UFA prospect, Gudbranson, among other tough/fighting players that have rolled through that I can't remember.

This narrative that he goes out of his way to not include any sort of toughness is lazy.

It's almost like they all want good players that contribute effectively and a good mix of players is always needed.

It's actually striking (and not just to me) how soft and timid this group is that he assembled.

The all-skill composition would be great if the majority of the competition assembled their rosters that way. But since they don't Dubas put this team at a disadvantage competitively, and it's only going to be more apparent as the season goes on and then of course playoff time.

 

[ShaneFalco]

It's actually striking (and not just to me) how soft and timid this group is that he assembled.

The all-skill composition would be great if the majority of the competition assembled their rosters that way. But since they don't Dubas put this team at a disadvantage competitively, and it's only going to be more apparent as the season goes on and then of course playoff time.

meh even without making any moves, add Moore and Marchment to this group, and maybe even Rosen, and they become harder to play against
But I agree, right now they are playing way too soft

 

[SprDaVE]

It's actually striking (and not just to me) how soft and timid this group is that he assembled.

The all-skill composition would be great if the majority of the competition assembled their rosters that way. But since they don't Dubas put this team at a disadvantage competitively, and it's only going to be more apparent as the season goes on and then of course playoff time.

He didn't assemble this team, at least not by himself. He hasn't been the General Manager for 1 year. The one major move he did was adding someone on pace for over 50 goals...

Ironically, the major problem right now is that they can't score at all. We have 8 forwards that have combined for 8 goals in the past 10+ games. 2 of those players are 30+ goal scorers.

We all want them to play a lot more heavy and with a lot more urgency. I hope we can see them get past this tough stretch and let's hope Dubas can add the secondary players needed to compliment the skilled players in the lineup.

 

[Bluelines]

Doesn't adversity build character?

 

[diceman934]

We are a soft team. It is not an opinion but a fact. Soft teams do not win in the playoffs.

Teams have discovered that they can hit us out of games and have done so.

Toughness is not fighting but it would not hurt if we had players stand up to others who take liberties with our players. Toughness is taking and giving checks, as well as helping your team by blocking shots and being hard to play against. We lack players like this.

We need at least 3 players who will run you if you run one of our players and play them not sit them on the bench as some sort of guard dog on a chain. I am not talking about goons as that is what everyone thinks of when talking about toughness. We have several players who avoid the puck under threat of being hit. One is to many.

Tampa is a tough team and yet people think they are not. This people do not watch hockey but only the leafs if they say Tampa is not tough.

Every team is looking for a player like Wilson right now. Why?

He will run you out of the arena if you even think about taking liberties with his team mates, and he is mean. Mean players get more room on the ice and open up room for their line mates. Washington won the cup last year and meanness was a huge part. It was no coincidence that they won the cup last year at the time they placed Wilson on the top line. They played a 3rd line at best player on the top line and gave him a ton of ice time to influence the game.

It Wilson was here in Toronto most on here would be mortified that he was on the top line. There is good reason as to why Babs likes Hyman and I wish he was meaner and tougher but still like his game.

We have players getting run every game and only Kadri who throws a check with any purpose to attempt to hurt them.

 

[SprDaVE]

Tampa is a tough team and yet people think they are not. This people do not watch hockey but only the leafs if they say Tampa is not tough.

It Wilson was here in Toronto most on here would be mortified that he was on the top line. There is good reason as to why Babs likes Hyman and I wish he was meaner and tougher but still like his game.

They are definitely not tougher than the Leafs. I watch a crap ton of hockey and to say they are tough, or tougher, is really being disingenuous quite a bit and makes me question your own opinion that people don't watch more than Leafs hockey. They have a world class offensive team, with a Vezina quality goaltender and a defense that is anchored with plenty of puck moving defenders. Look at their top 9 and let me know how that's more or less "tough" to play against. Their top forwards are all 6 feet and under and far from tough hockey players. They play heavy and with urgency and that's what this Leafs team needs to do a lot more.

Wilson is a damn good and tough hockey player. But then you look other players and the Caps don't exactly exhume toughness either. Let's be real here. Again, they won the cup with a lot less toughness in their lineup than a lot of other teams. They also finally got good goaltending, which is needed to win the cup. But yeah, they won the cup because of Tom Wilson alone I guess.

Our problem isn't really toughness as much as we can't score (especially on the PP) and our goaltending save percentage took a nose dive. Our defensive quality is pretty bad as well.

 

[ACC1224]

Leafs would seem a lot tougher if they consistently finished their checks.

 

[diceman934]

They are definitely not tougher than the Leafs. I watch a crap ton of hockey and to say they are tough, or tougher, is really being disingenuous quite a bit and makes me question your own opinion that people don't watch more than Leafs hockey. They have a world class offensive team, with a Vezina quality goaltender and a defense that is anchored with plenty of puck moving defenders. Their top forwards are all under 6 feet and far from tough hockey players.

Wilson is a damn good and tough hockey player. But then you look other players and the Caps don't exactly exhume toughness either. Let's be real here. Again, they won the cup with a lot less toughness in their lineup than a lot of other teams. They also finally got good goaltending, which is needed to win the cup.

Our problem isn't really toughness as much as we can't score (especially on the PP) and our goaltending save percentage took a nose dive.

Tampa is a very tough team. Start watching we are the softest team in the league and Tampa one of the toughest, Easily in the top 5.

I am not going to argue with you about toughness as you saying that Tampa being softer then us is laughable and removes all doubt as to your ability to see what you are watching if your claim is that Tampa is not tough. Did you watch what they Did to Boston in the playoff last year and how they beat them.

Last thing Our problem is a lack of toughness as we are easily deterred with a team that uses physical play against us which by the way limits scoring chances.

 

[SprDaVE]

Tampa is a very tough team. Start watching we are the softest team in the league and Tampa one of the toughest, Easily in the top 5.

I am not going to argue with you about toughness as you saying that Tampa being softer then us is laughable and removes all doubt as to your ability to see what you are watching if your claim is that Tampa is not tough. Did you watch what they Did to Boston in the playoff last year and how they beat them.

Last think. Our problem is a lack of toughness as we are easily deterred with a team that uses physical play against us which by the way limits scoring chances.

They are tough team because they are good? Yes. They play heavy, they forecheck and they actually have skill that makes them incredibly tough to play against. They also have damn good defensemen that is backboned by top notch goaltending. So yes, they are tough in that aspect.

They don't go out and body check or make it tough by wearing anybody down physically though. If you think they do that more than us... I don't know what to say to that other than to say you are wrong? Agree to disagree?

I never said we weren't soft. We should be a lot more tough to play against and a few of the players need to play a lot more heavy. 3 goals in the past 13+ games between Nylander, Matthews and Kadri is not being very tough to play against. If Kucherov, Point and Stamkos had 10-20 games without a goal, I think they'd probably be losing a lot more.

 

[diceman934]

They are tough team because they are good? Yes. They play heavy, they forecheck and they actually have skill that makes them incredibly tough to play against. They also have damn good defensemen that is backboned by top notch goaltending. So yes, they are tough in that aspect.

They don't go out and body check or make it tough by wearing anybody down physically though. If you think they do that more than us... I don't know what to say to that other than to say you are wrong? Agree to disagree?

I never said we weren't soft. We should be a lot more tough to play against and a few of the players need to play a lot more heavy. 3 goals in the past 13+ games between Nylander, Matthews and Kadri is not being very tough to play against.

Wrong they play the game many ways but Tampa hits a lot.

NHL.com - Stats

Check out the hit stats for your self and even more impressive is their number of hits as they are among the best possession teams in the League.

Start watching more then assuming as that is what you did.

 

[SprDaVE]

Wrong they play the game many ways but Tampa hits a lot.

NHL.com - Stats

Check out the hit stats for your self and even more impressive is their number of hits as they are among the best possession teams in the League.

Start watching more then assuming as that is what you did.

Oh hits are the toughness barometer? Cernak, Girardi, Paquette and Erne make that Tampa Bay team oh so tough. Arguably their worst possession players as well, which isn't surprising. I really like Cernak quite a bit though.

Leafs will be able to add/promote from within those kind of players in the near future. I wouldn't sweat the hit count too much.

 

[Bluelines]

Yzerman doesn't seem to understand this right now. Weird.

Why is Yzerman's opinion pertinent?

 

[Notsince67]

As a Leafs fan, I prefer to look at it this way:
Leafs fans are collectively incredibly stupid goon loving dinosaurs who hate skillful Europeans and want the skill players traded so the Leafs situation could worsen
And on slow news days, the Fan 590, TSN 1050 along with Sportsent and TSN sports networks are busy catching Leafs farts hoping to stumble upon something to say
And then we have the print media trying to keep the screws in the fans brains from further loosen.

Alas. The Euro class is the new victimized group. How about leaving hockey to the hockey fans because if this is what you see you need a new sport.

 

[Bluelines]

As much as a lot of fighting is out the game, a good physical play and sometimes a fight can still change momentum in a game. You can give your team energy still from a good physical shift.

Of course it can, sport is not just about defeating the guy across from you with skill, you must also defeat his spirit. If you know every time you go into the corners you are going to get bopped in the nose, pasted against the boards, hacked and slashed... are you so eager to go into the boards? If you double clutch on a pass and miss your window because you over think it because you are looking for the next guy to knock you down, did the last hit have an effect on you?

Hitting the snot out of everyone is not the be all and end all but neither is skill, just look at our skilled team record over the last 20 games.

Defeat a mans mind and his body will soon follow.

 

[diceman934]

Oh hits are the toughness barometer? Cernak, Girardi, Paquette and Erne make that Tampa Bay team oh so tough. Arguably their worst possession players as well, which isn't surprising.

Lol you said they do not hit a lot. Why not admit you were wrong rather then attempting to change the goalposts?

You named some of their tough players (not all) name ours?

Tampa is a tough team we are not. We can not put out players who can play a physical game. Tampa can and does.

 

[SprDaVE]

Lol you said they do not hit a lot. Why not admit you were wrong rather then attempting to change the goalposts?

You named some of their tough players (not all) name ours?

Tampa is a tough team we are not. We can not put out players who can play a physical game. Tampa can and does.

But they don't, at least not from the actual players making them good. If we had Polak, Komarov and Martin, you think we're better right now? Seems like a big reach to me because we were pretty soft with them as well apparently.

We seem to disagree what makes a team tough to play against. Again, remove Kucherov, Stamkos, Hedman and Point from the Lightning and they aren't very tough to play against... right?

Leafs could use more Dermott, and likely replacing Lindholm with a Moore or Marchment. Right there is a big improvement in "toughness".

 

[Bluelines]

Lol you said they do not hit a lot. Why not admit you were wrong rather then attempting to change the goalposts?

You named some of their tough players (not all) name ours?

Tampa is a tough team we are not. We can not put out players who can play a physical game. Tampa can and does.

Marner
Tavares
Brown
Nylander
Gardiner

 

[Vaive50]

On all of those other 18 wheeler off the cliff seasons, there were always people like you chiming in around February claiming everything would be ok...

Are you the open-minded one who correctly sees that people are over-reacting?

Or are you the closed-minded one who refuses to accept how glaring the leafs current problems are?

Only time will tell I suppose...

Are you seriously comparing this team to those teams owned by the Teachers Corp and run by Brian Burke and coached by Randy Carlyle (now look at the Ducks 18-wheeler) where our top-line center was Bozak (right now Bozak would be our 4th line center). You are far too pessimistic, the Leafs aren't the only "Top" team that has hit a rough stretch of games. The Stanley cup champ Caps are even worse than us with 5 straight losses which include losses to the Blues and Hawks (3-8 in last 11). The President trophy Preds of last year and Stanley cup finalists the year prior had lost 6 straight which included losses to the Sens, Hawks and Flyers to fall way down in the standings and since then are playing decent but still losing to the Red Wings, Canes and Panthers.

Things go wrong but what's important is the root of the subject and our root is Shanahan, not the Teachers Corp. You think Shanny will sit around forever and let his Shanaplan fail. No, he won't, he knows that we have the players that are capable of doing what they did before that Islanders loss when their record was 27-10-2. This time of season is where the bottom feeders like to play spoiler like we used to when we were a bottom feeder and it seems they are doing it to everyone but Tampa (and maybe Calgary). The Yotes just beat the Sharks 6-3 and pushed the Pens to OT before beating us. The Panthers beat the Preds and Sharks right after beating us.

I say take a chill pill and let the experts who get paid millions do their job in fixing this "goal scoring" problem that we've run into all of a sudden. Try to remember who the experts were back in those 18-wheeler years.

 

[RLF]

Oh hits are the toughness barometer? Cernak, Girardi, Paquette and Erne make that Tampa Bay team oh so tough. Arguably their worst possession players as well, which isn't surprising. I really like Cernak quite a bit though.

Leafs will be able to add/promote from within those kind of players in the near future. I wouldn't sweat the hit count too much.

Tampa does hits a lot more than the Leafs do. There is basically 13 players on Tampa that have as many hits as our top 4. So yes, I would say they do try and wear down the opposition physically more than we do.

 

[CelticDruid]

I mean... I pretty much said either he is blind to the problems, or people like me are exaggerating them, and that only time will tell.

That's not really optimistic or pessimistic.

It will all work out in the wash............... patience.

 

[SprDaVE]

Tampa does hits a lot more than the Leafs do. There is basically 13 players on Tampa that have as many hits as our top 4. So yes, I would say they do try and wear down the opposition physically more than we do.

None in their top 9 hit more than our top 9 in forwards. Zaitsev hits twice as much as Hedman... so he's tougher than Hedman?

Again, I'm not saying we aren't soft and we do need to add more heaviness in our secondary and complimentary players but a lot of the great teams in this league aren't exactly face punchers or heavy hitters, at least that's not what makes them good nor does it correlate to being good.

See Calgary is the last team in hits and Edmonton is top 5. What am I supposed to make out of it?

 

[Vaive50]

None in their top 9 hit more than our top 9 in forwards.

Again, I'm not saying we aren't soft and we do need to add more heaviness in our secondary and complimentary players but a lot of the great teams in this league aren't exactly face punchers or heavy hitters, at least that's not what makes them good nor does it correlate to being good.

See Calgary is the last team in hits and Edmonton is top 5. What am I supposed to make out of it?

Right and the refs give the Leafs penalties for simply breathing on the other team players, what would happen if we actually start hitting a lot more.

 

[Slyfox]

Who were the tough guys during the Pens two cup runs?

 

[ACC1224]

None in their top 9 hit more than our top 9 in forwards. Zaitsev hits twice as much as Hedman... so he's tougher than Hedman?

Again, I'm not saying we aren't soft and we do need to add more heaviness in our secondary and complimentary players but a lot of the great teams in this league aren't exactly face punchers or heavy hitters, at least that's not what makes them good nor does it correlate to being good.

See Calgary is the last team in hits and Edmonton is top 5. What am I supposed to make out of it?

Don't hits vary from rink to rink? I wouldn't use that as any barometer.

 

[RLF]

None in their top 9 hit more than our top 9 in forwards. Zaitsev hits twice as much as Hedman... so he's tougher than Hedman?

Again, I'm not saying we aren't soft and we do need to add more heaviness in our secondary and complimentary players but a lot of the great teams in this league aren't exactly face punchers or heavy hitters, at least that's not what makes them good nor does it correlate to being good.

See Calgary is the last team in hits and Edmonton is top 5. What am I supposed to make out of it?

You are taking it to the extreme. The point was they hit more and are more physical. It was not a player to player comparison. Toronto 813 hits. Tampa 1191 hits. Almost 300 more hits by team. That is pretty significant, No?
That's all I said, and you can take top 9 if you want, which I don't quite agree with your interpretation there. Nonetheless, that would mean their 4th line and D drastically out hit ours. That would suggest it is tougher to play in their end than ours and that they do play more physical as a team. If you project it over a season it is Tampa 1993 hits to Toronto 1389 hits.

Make of it what you will. I think it depends on if it is a team philosophy or a couple individuals that make the difference in numbers. I think it would be hard to suggest we have players who rather enjoy the physical aspect of the game and that we are tough to play against physically. We are an easy night physically most of the time.