Confirmed with Link: MacTavish media availability today at 11am

[Philly85*]

It's true. Some people just need to take a break.

 

[Oi'll say!]

... Taylor Hall anyone?

2012/13 45gp, 50 pts, +5 (91 pt pace)
2013/14 75gp, 80 pts, -15 (86 pt pace)

Didn't seem like he got any better to me, but stats don't seem to mean much around here.

Oh, I forgot that the shortened season doesn't count either. I guess it was a career year for Hall

 

[Oi'll say!]

The problem with the people who are loudest about how "everything is terrible just look at the results" are doing the absolute easiest thing to do in the world. There is no critical thought put into anything because it's too easy to say "It's all terrible they all suck"

Not everyone sucks, a lot of things went wrong and a lot of things can be done better but to dismiss it all as terrible because of the results is incredibly narrow minded thinking and demonstrates a very clear lack of objectivity and really is an inability to see the forest for the trees.

There are positives here, yes the overall product was ****, but that doesn't mean everyone involved is a pile of ****.

You're not really in tune with what's going on in this thread.

There's a lot of preaching going on here about how "MacT only traded away players who were useless, the fact that they weren't useless b4 eakins got here is a mirage" and "Eakins did allright and the team was better at the end of the year" and "getting rid of Smid was awesome because he was so bad and the Oilers have a whole bunch of better d-men playing now" and "DD was never any good, Scrivens is the messiah" blah blah blah.

People here will preach that all of those moves were completely amazing but none of them seem to be able to point a finger at how the team got better in any one area. It doesn't make much sense because the way I see it, if we got Mike Babcock, Carey Price and Shea Weber here for Eakins, Scrivens and Ference the team wouldn't likely get far worse.


If Eakins and MacT made some headway here we'd all be happy. We all know what happened here, some people don't want to admit it, MacT is trying to blow sunshine up our butts and apparently a few people here got nicely tanned.

 

[Oi'll say!]

Apparently doesn't count, neither does Scrivens.

Scrivens played 21 games here. He was .916 here which ties him with DD's 24 yr old season here although DD played 35 games in that one. It's 5 points less than DD's 26 yr old season here where he played 38 games.

If the injury-shortened season was a mirage then what can you say about a 27 yr old guy who has 72 career games spread across 3 seasons on 3 different teams? 20 of those games were also part of Toronto's "mirage" playoff season so he really only has 52 gp.

 

[Towmater14]

Mac T has done great.
Eakins sucks major dog poop.
Dubnyk was NEVER a good goalie.

 

[missinthejets]

You're not really in tune with what's going on in this thread.

There's a lot of preaching going on here about how "MacT only traded away players who were useless, the fact that they weren't useless b4 eakins got here is a mirage" and "Eakins did allright and the team was better at the end of the year" and "getting rid of Smid was awesome because he was so bad and the Oilers have a whole bunch of better d-men playing now" and "DD was never any good, Scrivens is the messiah" blah blah blah.

People here will preach that all of those moves were completely amazing but none of them seem to be able to point a finger at how the team got better in any one area. It doesn't make much sense because the way I see it, if we got Mike Babcock, Carey Price and Shea Weber here for Eakins, Scrivens and Ference the team wouldn't likely get far worse.


If Eakins and MacT made some headway here we'd all be happy. We all know what happened here, some people don't want to admit it, MacT is trying to blow sunshine up our butts and apparently a few people here got nicely tanned.

It's more in tune that trying to suggest that it's Mctavishes fault for Kevin Lowes GMing mistakes. Again, the whole point is that some people (ie. you) are looking at the terrible results and making broad sweeping generalizations about how everything is terrible. Not the case. Some things, in fact a good many things Mctavish did as GM were good moves. Sure there were some mistakes, most notably Eakins but no GM is one and done with the coaching hires. He'll continue to tweak the roster and if the coach still fails then he'll get to try again for the coaching hire. You can objectively look at the job MacT has done this year without only focussing on the record.

 

[rboomercat90]

It's more in tune that trying to suggest that it's Mctavishes fault for Kevin Lowes GMing mistakes. Again, the whole point is that some people (ie. you) are looking at the terrible results and making broad sweeping generalizations about how everything is terrible. Not the case. Some things, in fact a good many things Mctavish did as GM were good moves. Sure there were some mistakes, most notably Eakins but no GM is one and done with the coaching hires. He'll continue to tweak the roster and if the coach still fails then he'll get to try again for the coaching hire. You can objectively look at the job MacT has done this year without only focussing on the record.

Let's talk about the big mistake you admit Mac T made. He is hell bent on keeping him and the fact he is still here I guess we can assume he is going to start the season with the Oilers. Is it reasonable to assume that Mactavish fires him if this team has a terrible start to the season in order to save the season or will he continue to ignore the results like he did last year? IMO, if he does keep him and this team misses the playoffs by 20+ points they should both be canned. Would you agree with this or not?

 

[Mr Positive]

Let's talk about the big mistake you admit Mac T made. He is hell bent on keeping him and the fact he is still here I guess we can assume he is going to start the season with the Oilers. Is it reasonable to assume that Mactavish fires him if this team has a terrible start to the season in order to save the season or will he continue to ignore the results like he did last year? IMO, if he does keep him and this team misses the playoffs by 20+ points they should both be canned. Would you agree with this or not?

I know it could all be PR or whatever, but it was said that Eakins was close to being fired this year. Eakins said it himself on a few occasions, and even outside sources were saying that the Oilers' late season push saved Eakins his job.

I know a lot of fans would have liked that but I think its a good sign that the players did want to keep him enough to play better

 

[Oi'll say!]

I know it could all be PR or whatever, but it was said that Eakins was close to being fired this year. Eakins said it himself on a few occasions, and even outside sources were saying that the Oilers' late season push saved Eakins his job.

I know a lot of fans would have liked that but I think its a good sign that the players did want to keep him enough to play better

I heard near the same thing near the end of the season and I didn't think he did anything worth keeping his job.

They finished 4-8-0 and two of the games that they won were due to nothing other than Scrivens having freakish games.

I have done a detailed breakdown of their stats and I'm not interested in doing it again but they were at their worst in all the main categories. Wins/losses, gaa, gf. Their opponents were getting points fast enough to end up with 122 iirc and the Oilers were on pace for about 54.

I think that the Oilers will have no choice but to fire Eak if the team starts the next season like they finished last season but I think MacT will go all out this off-season. He'll sell off some of the prospects and picks in the org to get some immediate help "for the team" lol.

 

[Oi'll say!]

It's more in tune that trying to suggest that it's Mctavishes fault for Kevin Lowes GMing mistakes. Again, the whole point is that some people (ie. you) are looking at the terrible results and making broad sweeping generalizations about how everything is terrible. Not the case. Some things, in fact a good many things Mctavish did as GM were good moves. Sure there were some mistakes, most notably Eakins but no GM is one and done with the coaching hires. He'll continue to tweak the roster and if the coach still fails then he'll get to try again for the coaching hire. You can objectively look at the job MacT has done this year without only focussing on the record.

On the surface you could say that some individual moves were good but if you look at the assets we had b4 the season vs the assets we had after the season we traded down.

DD was worth way more than a 32 yr old 3rd line checker that Preds fans didn't want anymore b4 the season started.

DD had a .917 sv% over his past 3 seasons and was only 3 games below .500 in that span on this team that wasn't very good.
Hendricks played 170 games with 21 points and was -17 in his last 3 seasons. And like I said he was 32 yrs old. If MacT made that trade b4 the season started he would have been fired on the spot. It only made sense after Eakins got this team off to their atrocious start and so many players here were looking like crap.

Smid played a lot of mins here in 2012/13 and his -1 was respectable enough considering the Oilers were a last place team the year b4. This was his 28 yr old season, he should be in his prime over the next 4 seasons. He was traded for a couple guys who have a small chance of even making it to the nhl for a full cup of coffee let alone earning full-time roster spots. Even if you look at it as a straight up Ference for Smid trade, last year's Smid was better than this year's Ference. Pretty much the same team.

I've said b4 that getting Scrivens for a 3rd round pick was brilliant and I stand by it, but overshadowing everything is the hiring of Eakins and equally bad is banking on him for the start of the 2014/15 season.

 

[rboomercat90]

I know it could all be PR or whatever, but it was said that Eakins was close to being fired this year. Eakins said it himself on a few occasions, and even outside sources were saying that the Oilers' late season push saved Eakins his job.

I know a lot of fans would have liked that but I think its a good sign that the players did want to keep him enough to play better

Who was saying Eakins job was ever in jeopardy? Eakins saying it doesn't mean squat because a lot of people in his situation that can admit it to themselves that things aren't going well can start feeling insecure. I never got the impression from anybody above him in the organization that it was ever considered. Are these the same outside sources that have been saying all year that Kevin Lowe needs to be gone? Just because somebody in this organization deserves to get canned doesn't mean it's going to happen. These guys don't do things the way most other teams do.

 

[missinthejets]

DD was worth way more than a 32 yr old 3rd line checker that Preds fans didn't want anymore b4 the season started.

DD had a .917 sv% over his past 3 seasons and was only 3 games below .500 in that span on this team that wasn't very good.
Hendricks played 170 games with 21 points and was -17 in his last 3 seasons. And like I said he was 32 yrs old. If MacT made that trade b4 the season started he would have been fired on the spot. It only made sense after Eakins got this team off to their atrocious start and so many players here were looking like crap.

Smid played a lot of mins here in 2012/13 and his -1 was respectable enough considering the Oilers were a last place team the year b4. This was his 28 yr old season, he should be in his prime over the next 4 seasons. He was traded for a couple guys who have a small chance of even making it to the nhl for a full cup of coffee let alone earning full-time roster spots. Even if you look at it as a straight up Ference for Smid trade, last year's Smid was better than this year's Ference. Pretty much the same team.

Was DD worth more though? Nashvilles goalie coach trashed his technique and had to apologize to the oilers goalie coach for it, they didn't even keep him and now he's in the AHL right? That doesn't sound like a player worth a lot. Mctavish moved a goalie who was struggling badly for the type of player the team needed and it's very obvious that Hendricks added something intangible to the team.

As for Smid, his play dropped this year that is pretty undeniable and I say that as a big Smid fan. They are also in a position where a lot of young defenseman are going to start to break into the lineup soon and I do think the move really was made with the idea of making space for them. Comparing Smid to Ference is a bit silly too as Ference is here because he has more experience so if it's between Smid and Ference of course the GM is picking the guy he signed for the veteran and leadership role mostly. The fact that Smid didn't play any higher in the lineup in Calgary should be a wake up call as well. For a guy who has that kind of salary going forward the GM deemed him a movable asset and added some prospects to the system in an area the team was lacking. The will likely have to do the same with more defensemen in the future as well since they are a bit over stocked in that position.

Mctavish really does seem to have a good grasp on where the organization is weak and where it is strong and is making moves to try and balance things out, just that there's a lot of work to do and he can't wave a magic wand and fix them all instantly. I think he knows he goofed on the coaching thing but doesn't want to pull the trigger again until he's got the roster more in line with how he wants it.

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

Was DD worth more though? Nashvilles goalie coach trashed his technique and had to apologize to the oilers goalie coach for it, they didn't even keep him and now he's in the AHL right? That doesn't sound like a player worth a lot.

This is a good observation and my #1 beef with the Oilers. I will bang this drum that the Oilers are THE WORST team at developing goalies to the point other posters will probably tell me to go away but the facts are undeniable.

The real question is why was Dubnyk so bad in the first place? When you look at what happened with goalies within our development system its almost laughable. I wrote my thoughts in detail in another thread so i won't do it again here

It is the most obvious area of improvement within the organization. Yet very little has been done in the last 10 years. The biggest improvement was to acquire an AHL and ECHL franchise so our goalies have a place to play that the team controls. However, the root of the problem remains the same.

1) Oilers don't draft enough goalies.
2) Oilers always put their eggs in one or two baskets
3) Oilers do a poor job of developing goalies (as you identified in your post)

FYI, the Nashville goalie coach is a free agent. I mentioned this as well in another thread. I bet we won't even have any interest to sign him. Oilers wheel of suck keeps on turning.

 

[Pressure]

Seriously guys, do we have to bring up DD in yet ANOTHER thread?

We are terrible at developing goalies, but these warts that Dubnyk had were present the day he was drafted. He was never projected to be a first round player, and could have been had in the 2nd and 3rd round..

Anyways, the guy is trash, garbage. There's enough threads about him already.

 

[missinthejets]

If the system hadn't been so flawed maybe those warts would have been polished out of his game and he'd be a worthwhile goaltender? Not like he was pure **** all the time, he showed flashes of being good, considering the **** show he put up with for a development system I think that speaks to the talents he does have, the team just let him down when it came to development.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

If the system hadn't been so flawed maybe those warts would have been polished out of his game and he'd be a worthwhile goaltender? Not like he was pure **** all the time, he showed flashes of being good, considering the **** show he put up with for a development system I think that speaks to the talents he does have, the team just let him down when it came to development.

You're right, flashes, he wasn't good, he wasn't "consistent", it was just Flashes.

Whine about the system and development or whatever else you need to, the reality is some player don't have what it takes to get beyond "flashes" Devan Dubnyk didn't.

When you want a comparable for Dubnyk and his "flashes" I present - Mathieu Garon.

Mathieu Garon was a big athletic goaltender who always "looked" like he could/should be an NHL starter...however never found consistency to get beyond "flashes". This is why he was never a starter. That is Devan Dubnyk. If you some of you want to pretend the Oilers tore him down and he would have been just fine, good for you, the fact is he was never consistent enough to be an NHL starter and now he's not consistent enough to be an NHLer.

 

[missinthejets]

but the point is if he had proper development from day one maybe the flaws in his game would have been worked out and he would have been more consistent? We'll never know but it's entirely possible that with some good development he would have worked out. Trying to fix problems when a player is older is hard, fixing them when they're young is much easier but Dubnyk never got that support. The fact he even played in the NHL is pretty remarkable considering how much they dicked around with his development.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

but the point is if he had proper development from day one maybe the flaws in his game would have been worked out and he would have been more consistent?

No, absolutely NO. This assume that every player is exactly the same and can achieve exactly the same thing, the only difference is development, which I doubt even you believe.

Devan Dubnyk isn't a 23 to 25 year old the team is cutting bait on, he's was with the organization for a decade, 10 years of development, the last 3 in the NHL. If he was going to be a full time NHL starter, he would have shown the consistency to do that, he has not and did not, that why he's not an Oilers any more.

Look at Andres Lindback, develop in a place where they develop goalies "right", Nashville, does not look to have anything close to the consistency to be an NHL starter. Looks like he has the tools, but not the game, why? Because he's been poorly develop or as a player he simple can't achieve this? Probably the latter.

This the problem, everyone assumes the goalies are just plug and play, they aren't they tough to figure out and not all of them will be great if you just develop them properly. Like forwards and defensemen, some goalies don't have what it takes.

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

No, absolutely NO. This assume that every player is exactly the same and can achieve exactly the same thing, the only difference is development, which I doubt even you believe.

Devan Dubnyk isn't a 23 to 25 year old the team is cutting bait on, he's was with the organization for a decade, 10 years of development, the last 3 in the NHL. If he was going to be a full time NHL starter, he would have shown the consistency to do that, he has not and did not, that why he's not an Oilers any more.

Look at Andres Lindback, develop in a place where they develop goalies "right", Nashville, does not look to have anything close to the consistency to be an NHL starter. Looks like he has the tools, but not the game, why? Because he's been poorly develop or as a player he simple can't achieve this? Probably the latter.

This the problem, everyone assumes the goalies are just plug and play, they aren't they tough to figure out and not all of them will be great if you just develop them properly. Like forwards and defensemen, some goalies don't have what it takes.

I believe, that an organization should be able to develop 1 NHL starting goalie every 5 years. So if you draft a goalie every year, then in theory your success rate is 20%. Not great.

Goalies are a huge crapshoot. The position is just as mental as it is physical. Goalies can't make mistakes. Period. That's how it works. How they deal with failure and adversity is what separates a bad goalie from a good one.

Unfortunately you can't scout mental toughness. It only reveals itself during games usually at the most critical times.

For example, we knew Dubnyk wasn't a starter once he was handed the position and failed miserably. Before that, nothing indicated with 100% certainty that Dubnyk couldn't do the job. We had suspicions but it wasn't fact. That's the conundrum a team faces with goalies.

Consequently, you can't say that goalies are a crapshoot therefore we won't put as much efforts into our goalies as we do with the rest of our players.

 

[Oilfan2]

I believe, that an organization should be able to develop 1 NHL starting goalie every 5 years. So if you draft a goalie every year, then in theory your success rate is 20%. Not great.

Goalies are a huge crapshoot. The position is just as mental as it is physical. Goalies can't make mistakes. Period. That's how it works. How they deal with failure and adversity is what separates a bad goalie from a good one.

Unfortunately you can't scout mental toughness. It only reveals itself during games usually at the most critical times.

For example, we knew Dubnyk wasn't a starter once he was handed the position and failed miserably. Before that, nothing indicated with 100% certainty that Dubnyk couldn't do the job. We had suspicions but it wasn't fact. That's the conundrum a team faces with goalies.

Consequently, you can't say that goalies are a crapshoot therefore we won't put as much efforts into our goalies as we do with the rest of our players.

Well said..

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

I believe, that an organization should be able to develop 1 NHL starting goalie every 5 years. So if you draft a goalie every year, then in theory your success rate is 20%. Not great.

Goalies are a huge crapshoot. The position is just as mental as it is physical. Goalies can't make mistakes. Period. That's how it works. How they deal with failure and adversity is what separates a bad goalie from a good one.

Unfortunately you can't scout mental toughness. It only reveals itself during games usually at the most critical times.

For example, we knew Dubnyk wasn't a starter once he was handed the position and failed miserably. Before that, nothing indicated with 100% certainty that Dubnyk couldn't do the job. We had suspicions but it wasn't fact. That's the conundrum a team faces with goalies.

Consequently, you can't say that goalies are a crapshoot therefore we won't put as much efforts into our goalies as we do with the rest of our players.

You're right, I'm also not saying it's a "crap" shoot. To assume "you should be able to develop a NHL starting goalie every 5 years" is just false, period. That's like saying you should be able to develop to Pairing Defenseman or a First line player every 5 years, there are so many other factors.

I don't know what to say here, there tends to be an obvious reason the top-10 goalies in the league doesn't fluctuate very much from year to year, the position is difficult to play and the good ones teams hold on to them tightly. Does your logic for development of starter suggest that NJ sucks at developing goalies because they've only had Brodeur for 2 decades or that they weren't trying to develop other starting goalies?

Yes, teams do need to work toward getting a starter out of the goalie, if it were just a simple as "doing that" guys like Rask, Lundqvist, Price and Rinne wouldn't be so highly valued.

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

You're right, I'm also not saying it's a "crap" shoot. To assume "you should be able to develop a NHL starting goalie every 5 years" is just false, period. That's like saying you should be able to develop to Pairing Defenseman or a First line player every 5 years, there are so many other factors.

I don't know what to say here, there tends to be an obvious reason the top-10 goalies in the league doesn't fluctuate very much from year to year, the position is difficult to play and the good ones teams hold on to them tightly. Does your logic for development of starter suggest that NJ sucks at developing goalies because they've only had Brodeur for 2 decades or that they weren't trying to develop other starting goalies?

Yes, teams do need to work toward getting a starter out of the goalie, if it were just a simple as "doing that" guys like Rask, Lundqvist, Price and Rinne wouldn't be so highly valued.

I need to clairfy.

I used the word should because that "should" be the goal. I didn't use the word "must" because like you pointed out its not possible to achieve this result consistently every 5 years.

NJ does suck at developing goalies. Ari Ahonen and Jeff Frazee was supposed to be the "next guy" but they couldn't make it past the AHL. NJ's problem is the same as i described with the Oilers.

Think of the goaltending process for an NHL club like toilet paper. When your sitting on the toilet you don't want to be in a situation where you run out of toilet paper. Most people buy mega packs of toilet paper so they never run out. You can never have enough toilet paper.

Goalies are the same. You want lots of goalies. Like Quick, Bernier/Scrivens, Jones in LA or Fasth, Hiller, Andersen, Gibson in ANA or Lethonen, Campbell, Desrosiers in DAL and so on.

Goaltending is a position where you need lots of guys. You need to consistantly be drafting and developing them on a continuous basis. Why did the Habs draft Fucale when in theory they have Price (top 5 goalie in the NHL at 26). Because they don't want to run out toilet paper.

MacT this year was like Elaine in the episode of Seinfeld hoping someone would spare a square.

 

[SoftDumps]

I need to clairfy.

I used the word should because that "should" be the goal. I didn't use the word "must" because like you pointed out its not possible to achieve this result consistently every 5 years.

NJ does suck at developing goalies. Ari Ahonen and Jeff Frazee was supposed to be the "next guy" but they couldn't make it past the AHL. NJ's problem is the same as i described with the Oilers.

Think of the goaltending process for an NHL club like toilet paper. When your sitting on the toilet you don't want to be in a situation where you run out of toilet paper. Most people buy mega packs of toilet paper so they never run out. You can never have enough toilet paper.

Goalies are the same. You want lots of goalies. Like Quick, Bernier/Scrivens, Jones in LA or Fasth, Hiller, Andersen, Gibson in ANA or Lethonen, Campbell, Desrosiers in DAL and so on.

Goaltending is a position where you need lots of guys. You need to consistantly be drafting and developing them on a continuous basis. Why did the Habs draft Fucale when in theory they have Price (top 5 goalie in the NHL at 26). Because they don't want to run out toilet paper.

MacT this year was like Elaine in the episode of Seinfeld hoping someone would spare a square.

Great toilet paper analogy, well said. Too bad MacT didn't draft a ton of goalies for the past 5 years.

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

Great toilet paper analogy, well said. Too bad MacT didn't draft a ton of goalies for the past 5 years.

That means alot coming from you SoftDumps

 

[ConnorMcNugesaitl]

This is a good observation and my #1 beef with the Oilers. I will bang this drum that the Oilers are THE WORST team at developing goalies to the point other posters will probably tell me to go away but the facts are undeniable.

The real question is why was Dubnyk so bad in the first place? When you look at what happened with goalies within our development system its almost laughable. I wrote my thoughts in detail in another thread so i won't do it again here

It is the most obvious area of improvement within the organization. Yet very little has been done in the last 10 years. The biggest improvement was to acquire an AHL and ECHL franchise so our goalies have a place to play that the team controls. However, the root of the problem remains the same.

1) Oilers don't draft enough goalies.
2) Oilers always put their eggs in one or two baskets
3) Oilers do a poor job of developing goalies (as you identified in your post)

FYI, the Nashville goalie coach is a free agent. I mentioned this as well in another thread. I bet we won't even have any interest to sign him. Oilers wheel of suck keeps on turning.

I don't think it's a development issue. But I also think people overrate the amount of development that can be done with players in general. Guys are going to become what they are. The reason Brule didn't turn out and Kyle Turris did isin't because of Columbus or Phoenix respectively. It's because Turris is a better hockey player.

To your original point the Oilers issue is they're terrible at drafting goaltenders could it be that they just need to draft more and see who pans out, perhaps but they surely need to evaluate their scouting staff and how they evaluate goaltenders because it hasn't been good.

On the other hand this organization was awful at drafting for 3 decades and the new regime is just starting to have some fruit from the later season crop. So they probably need another 2 years before you can fully evaluate them from 2009 til now.