Mackinnon vs Matthews vs Eichel

[Sidney the Kidney]

What do you mean? The poll is asking what player you'd take going forward

And? Is Nathan MacKinnon expected to revert to being that 50 point guy going forward? Who you'd take "going forward" involves determining what you think that player is now and beyond, not what he was a handful of seasons ago.

Isn't who he is today more relevant in determining who he'll be "going forward" than who he was at age 19 or 20?

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

Mack
Matthews
Eichel

Easy peasy

If all are healthy next year and get ice time there will be no excuses for any player. But the list could also change a tad bit however.

 

[Sojourn]

Except Mackinnon has NEVER been a 100 pt player.

And it took matthews 63 games to break 70.....

I’m sure you know why 80 percent of people are choosing mackinnon.......

It’s the same reason the majority took
Laine over matthews
Skej over rielly
Risto over gardiner

And the list goes on and on

Why don’t you let me grab the nails, and we can put you on that cross.

People are voting MacKinnon because he is clearly, and unquestionably, the better player right now. It isn’t because of who Matthews plays for. It’s because, so far, Matthews has played 3 NHL seasons and he’s completed 1. It’s because over the last two years MacKinnon has put up a 97 point season, in 74 games, and a 99 point season in 82, something Matthews hasn’t even come close to accomplishing. Even with pace projections.

But sure, play the victim. It’s only because he’s a Toronto player. No other reason.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

And? Is Nathan MacKinnon expected to revert to being that 50 point guy going forward? Who you'd take "going forward" involves determining what you think that player is now and beyond, not what he was a handful of seasons ago.

Isn't who he is today more relevant in determining who he'll be "going forward" than who he was at age 19 or 20?

What do you mean? First of all, I was correcting your claim that the discussion is only about who is better now. And also, age really does matter in terms of who someone would consider taking going forward. Not sure why you'd pretend otherwise

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

And also untrue?

Every post of yours in this thread goes on about how Matthews is younger and a better bet to be better than Mackinnon because reasons.

But then again, you’re playing the Leafs victim card to why the superior player is winning.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

What do you mean? First of all, I was correcting your claim that the discussion is only about who is better now. And also, age really does matter in terms of who someone would consider taking going forward. Not sure why you'd pretend otherwise

Age definitely matters, but let’s not act like Matthews is f***ing 10 years younger than Mackinnon.

 

[Sojourn]

What do you mean? First of all, I was correcting your claim that the discussion is only about who is better now. And also, age really does matter in terms of who someone would consider taking going forward. Not sure why you'd pretend otherwise

I agree age does matter. But we’re also talking about two players with a little over one year between them. It’s, what, like a year and two weeks? If age is going to hurt MacKinnon here, it’s also reasonable to say it would hurt Matthews.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Age definitely matters, but let’s not act like Matthews is ****ing 10 years younger than Mackinnon.

Agreed. I don't see anyone doing that, but anyone who thinks Matthews is a decade younger is wrong

 

[Legion34]

If the "pace" argument applies for Matthews, then it should for MacKinnon as well.

Or it shouldn't for either, which most would prefer.

Either way is fine. I just find it funny that a player who never did something was given the benefit of the doubt.

But a player who easily passed it “struggled”

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

What do you mean? First of all, I was correcting your claim that the discussion is only about who is better now. And also, age really does matter in terms of who someone would consider taking going forward. Not sure why you'd pretend otherwise

So if the discussion was about who you'd take going forward between Laine and Kucherov, how Kucherov did in his rookie year would factor into which one you'd take going forward?

You're arguing semantics about what the OP is asking when what I said still applies. Who you'd take going forward involves deciding who you think will be better from this point in time and on. Unless you believe MacKinnon will regress to being a 50 point player, how he did prior to these past two seasons has no real relevance.

So I'll ask two questions:
1-Do you think MacKinnon will be a 50 point player this season and beyond?
2-If not, why does what he did prior to these past two years have any relevance to "going forward"?

 

[Legion34]

And so what if MacKinnon peaked? So what if MacKinnon doesn’t get any better? It doesn’t matter, since he is already better than Matthews.

Matthews has not always been better. He wasn’t better this year. Or last year. You keep going back to the age argument. You can’t help it, apparently, because it’s the only argument you have for Matthews. Yes, he started his career better.

And?

And that’s where your argument falls apart, because it turns into “well, he could do the same thing.” Maybe.

Ummmm really?

Matthews
69 pts in 82 games
63 pts in 62 games
73 pts in 68 games.

?That’s an increase despite having to go back to carrying rookies again

 

[Deadly Dogma]

Feelings hurt?

I don’t remember seeing those comparisons. Mackinnon has increased to 80% of the votes. Leafs have the largest fan base and the poll should be closer.

Maybe you also believe AM is better than McDavid?

crappy part is if Matthews is having a better season than N.M and we bump this, guess who gets the infractions

 

[Sojourn]

Either way is fine. I just find it funny that a player who never did something was given the benefit of the doubt.

But a player who easily passed it “struggled”

Toronto fans were calling Matthews a point per game player -last season- when he fell 20 games short of a full season, and was only 1 point above his games played total.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

So if the discussion was about who you'd take going forward between Laine and Kucherov, how Kucherov did in his rookie year would factor into which one you'd take going forward?

You're arguing semantics about what the OP is asking when what I said still applies. Who you'd take going forward involves deciding who you think will be better from this point in time and on. Unless you believe MacKinnon will regress to being a 50 point player, how he did prior to these past two seasons has no real relevance.

So I'll ask two questions:
1-Do you think MacKinnon will be a 50 point player this season and beyond?
2-If not, why does what he did prior to these past two years have any relevance to "going forward"?

Of course age would factor in. It would be silly not to. that doesn't mean it would be my only consideration, but I wouldn't treat the question as who is better now if that's not the question

1-No
2-Because I recognize development is a real thing, and players improve as they get more experienced and stronger and get more powerplay time and better linemates. Also, young players are better for longer

 

[Sojourn]

Ummmm really?

Matthews
69 pts in 82 games
63 pts in 62 games
73 pts in 68 games.

?That’s an increase despite having to go back to carrying rookies again

What are you protesting here? That Matthews hasn’t always been better? Be specific. Because MacKinnon’s totals the last two seasons are certainly better.

Or are you just arguing that Matthews has been better than his previous seasons? Which I didn’t dispute. Because being better than his previous seasons isn’t actually an argument for him against MacKinnon. Matthews can improve on his totals this upcoming season and still fall well short of MacKinnon... because the gap between them right now is that noteworthy. Which, again, is why people are voting for MacKinnon. You can talk all you want about how Matthews can continue to improve, and people will continue to say that it doesn’t mean he matches MacKinnon.

I’m guessing your issue is that... and my response to you is: So what? So what if Matthews has improved?

 

[Legion34]

How about this.

How many times since the lockout has the player who has been dramatically better every single year for the first 3 years they entered the NHL not turned out to be the better player?

Must happen all the time for 80 percent of people to make that choice right?

Generally the player who is better for the first 200 games of their career turns out to be better.... right?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Of course age would factor in. It would be silly not to. that doesn't mean it would be my only consideration, but I wouldn't treat the question as who is better now if that's not the question

So you're stuck on semantics about a phrase I used, rather than my overall point? Why do all our discussions involve you missing the bigger point and laser focusing on a poorly chosen word or phrase?

The point I was making is these people comparing Matthews to how MacKinnon produced at age 21, as though that's still the player MacKinnon is TODAY, seems a little iffy when deciding who you'd take going forward since the MacKinnon you choose going forward wouldn't be that 50 point guy.

 

[Sojourn]

crappy part is if Matthews is having a better season than N.M and we bump this, guess who gets the infractions

Because bumping old threads is infraction-worthy.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

So you're stuck on semantics about a phrase I used, rather than my overall point? Why do all our discussions involve you missing the bigger point and laser focusing on a poorly chosen word or phrase?

The point I was making is these people comparing Matthews to how MacKinnon produced at age 21, as though that's still the player MacKinnon is TODAY, seems a little iffy when deciding who you'd take going forward since the MacKinnon you choose going forward wouldn't be that 50 point guy.

I'm not trying to focus on semantics too heavily. I was legitimately wondering why you think the discussion is purely about who's better now and age is meaningless, when the OP specified that wasn't the case. Yes, MacKinnon won't be a 50 point player going forward. That doesn't also mean that Matthews won't also benefit from developing, or be a more enticing pick here due to getting more prime years with him

 

[Sojourn]

How about this.

How many times since the lockout has the player who has been dramatically better every single year for the first 3 years they entered the NHL not turned out to be the better player?

Must happen all the time for 80 percent of people to make that choice right?

Generally the player who is better for the first 200 games of their career turns out to be better.... right?

I offer you a counter argument: How many times since the lockout has a player gone from a 50-60 point pace over multiple seasons to a 100 point pace?

I’d be willing to bet the percentage of that happening is smaller than the percentage of your example.

Which pretty much shows that trying to generalize things like you’re doing is a very poor argument. Yes, statistically, based on how they started their careers, Matthews should end up better. Up until the point where MacKinnon had a 97 point season in 74 games, and followed it up with a 99 point season in 82. After that, it matters less how they started because MacKinnon is already defying the odds. That kind of jump in his numbers already makes him unusual.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm not trying to focus on semantics too heavily. I was legitimately wondering why you think the discussion is purely about who's better now and age is meaningless, when the OP specified that wasn't the case. Yes, MacKinnon won't be a 50 point player going forward. That doesn't also mean that Matthews won't also benefit from developing, or be a more enticing pick here due to getting more prime years with him

Where did I say or even imply that I was arguing the bolded? Matthews very well could improve and very well could surpass MacKinnon. I wouldn't even be surprised if he did. I know Leaf fans instantly like to label me a "Leaf hater" but seem to consistently ignore the posts I make when I praise their players, and I've consistently listed Matthews highly in threads about ranking players (Marner as well. Tavares, not so much).

My point was, if someone were to pick Matthews, it would be because they believe he will surpass the MacKinnon of the past two years. So bringing up the 50 point MacKinnon and comparing them "by age" doesn't seem to make much sense because that's not the MacKinnon Matthews would have to surpass.

 

[Legion34]

I offer you a counter argument: How many times since the lockout has a player gone from a 50-60 point pace over multiple seasons to a 100 point pace?

I’d be willing to bet the percentage of that happening is smaller than the percentage of your example.

Which pretty much shows that trying to generalize things like you’re doing is a very poor argument. Yes, statistically, based on how they started their careers, Matthews should end up better. Up until the point where MacKinnon had a 97 point season in 74 games, and followed it up with a 99 point season in 82.

Your parameters are oddly specific. Mine allow for all players to be compared.

Your numbers also leave out the that almost no one was a 90 pt scorer for years.

How bout Kessel. He went from a 60 pt player to a plus PPG player......

He didn’t end up better player than all the ones who were considered drastically better in the first 200 games.

Mackinnons best pace was 42 goals and 107
Pts.

Matthews was 45 goals 88 pts.

Matthews has always and more than likely will always be the better goal scorer. The only question will assists.

Maybe if one didn’t play on a team with the most PP and one with one of the least the points would be closer

 

[Sojourn]

Your parameters are oddly specific. Mine allow for all players to be compared.

Your numbers also leave out the that almost no one was a 90 pt scorer for years.

How bout Kessel. He went from a 60 pt player to a plus PPG player......

He didn’t end up better player than all the ones who were considered drastically better in the first 200 games.

Mackinnons best pace was 42 goals and 107
Pts.

Matthews was 45 goals 88 pts.

Matthews has always and more than likely will always be the better goal scorer. The only question will assists.

Maybe if one didn’t play on a team with the most PP and one with one of the least the points would be closer

Don’t be a hypocrite. Your parameters were just as specific. My entire point was that what MacKinnon has done is anomalous, and that trying to gauge past things based on what happened before that took place isn’t going to tell you shit. He’s already a special case, and yet your argument, your entire argument comes down to “Matthews started better.”

The end.

That’s it. That’s your argument. Your boy started better. It doesn’t matter what MacKinnon did something very unusual, and has very quickly become one of the very best in the game. The fact that Matthews started better makes him the right choice... unless you’re a Toronto hater.

 

[spiny norman]

Lopsided result.