Mackinnon vs Matthews vs Eichel

[Neutral Hockey Fan]

I'll ask you, since the other guy seems to want to avoid answering the question.

What's your prediction for Matthews' totals this year? Shouldn't the prediction be in line with "being better than MacKinnon", which would be 100 points or so?

In Mackinnon’s 4th season (the same season Matthews is about to play in), he had 53 points with a paltry 16 goals, while playing in all 82 games.

If Matthews production is in line with that, it will be perhaps the most disappointing season of any player in recent memory, would it not?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

In Mackinnon’s 4th season (the same season Matthews is about to play in), he had 53 points with a paltry 16 goals, while playing in all 82 games.

If Matthews production is in line with that, it will be perhaps the most disappointing season of any player in recent memory, would it not?

The discussion is who is the better player *now*. So if Leaf fans want to argue that Matthews is better TODAY, then you should probably compare him to MacKinnon today, and not what MacKinnon did a few years ago. No one is arguing that MacKinnon, in his first three years, is better. The argument is today's version of MacKinnon is the better player.

But again, why do Leaf fans not want to give a straight answer? What are your predictions for Matthews' totals this year?

 

[cgf]

In Mackinnon’s 4th season (the same season Matthews is about to play in), he had 53 points with a paltry 16 goals, while playing in all 82 games.

If Matthews production is in line with that, it will be perhaps the most disappointing season of any player in recent memory, would it not?

Development. Is. Not. Linear.

 

[Neutral Hockey Fan]

The discussion is who is the better player *now*. So if Leaf fans want to argue that Matthews is better TODAY, then you should probably compare him to MacKinnon today, and not what MacKinnon did a few years ago. No one is arguing that MacKinnon, in his first three years, is better. The argument is today's version of MacKinnon is the better player.

But again, why do Leaf fans not want to give a straight answer? What are your predictions for Matthews' totals this year?

You’d have to ask leaf fans this question. I am most certainly not a fan of any particular team, as I am simply a hockey fan.

I love Mackinnon as a player. Eichel is a clear step behind in this poll

 

[JackSlater]

MacKinnon has the highest highs and the lowest lows so far, but I like someone who has proven to be among the absolute best in the world over others who might prove it soon.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

That Matthews is a year younger crutch is f***ing annoying.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

That Matthews is a year younger crutch is ****ing annoying.

It's also irrelevant to the current discussion since it's asking who is the better player *now*.

The age thing only would have relevancy if the question is "who was the better player at age X?"

 

[POVERTY]

Right now it's Mackinnon ainec and Matthews has potential to catch up

 

[Sojourn]

I trust that Matthews will get to Mackinnons level, because what his did on his ELC crushed what nate mac did

Matthews: 111g/205pts in 212 games
MacKinnon: 59g/153pts in 238 games


It took Mackinnon 5 seasons to hit 25g or 65+ pts. Matthews 40g/69pts as a rookie. Lets give AM 3 more seasons to hit that next level

It was certainly better than what MacKinnon did... but does that actually mean anything? I think the majority feel that no, it doesn’t matter. What MacKinnon did after that was put up 97 points in 74 games, and he followed it up with 99 points in 82 games. That means MacKinnon is either a 100-point player(depending on how you gauge that) or he’s really f***ing close as a 99-point player.

Which means the question isn’t who had the better start, which is what your argument boils down to. It’s whether Matthews can be a 100-point player. Right now, he’s well off the mark. And yes, MacKinnon was even further off the mark, but we also know what he has done since.

And that’s why MacKinnon is dominating this poll. One of them has achieved it. Twice. The other you hope can, at least once, but objectively you would probably say it isn’t a safe bet(and neither was MacKinnon at the time).

 

[J T Money]

So would you also say there is zero guarantees that mackinnon doesn’t regress?

He also could have had his career year too right?

They both could do so...it's as if you're blind by the fact MacKinnon is a 100pt player and Matthews struggled to get over the 70pt mark.

There's a reason 80% of the voters chose MacKinnon - he's the better player.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

In Mackinnon’s 4th season (the same season Matthews is about to play in), he had 53 points with a paltry 16 goals, while playing in all 82 games.

If Matthews production is in line with that, it will be perhaps the most disappointing season of any player in recent memory, would it not?

Mack's 4th season was also the Avs 48 point season, where they only scored 165 goals total, and had 1 other player with 40+ points. So, let's not pretend that there isn't a massive difference in quality of team around Matthews in his upcoming 4th season than what Mack was working with in his 4th season.

Matthews has also been 348 days older in every comparable season (ie. rookie years, Mack was 18, Matthews was 19), If we want same age comparables, this coming year is more comparable to Mack's 5th season, when he scored 97 points and should have won the Hart.

 

[Neutral Hockey Fan]

Mack's 4th season was also the Avs 48 point season, where they only scored 165 goals total, and had 1 other player with 40+ points. So, let's not pretend that there isn't a massive difference in quality of team around Matthews in his upcoming 4th season than what Mack was working with in his 4th season.

Matthews has also been 348 days older in every comparable season (ie. rookie years, Mack was 18, Matthews was 19), If we want same age comparables, this coming year is more comparable to Mack's 5th season, when he scored 97 points and should have won the Hart.

The linemate arguement is true for sure, like you said.

It’s one of those scenarios where you wish Matthews had linemates equivalent to Mackinnon’s most common line mates (Rantanen and Landeskog).

Put Matthews with that equivalent, Marner and Nylander for example, and give him 23+ minutes per game with a lot more pp time, like Mackinnon gets. That’s the only true way to gauge who would put up the better numbers.

Sadly, we will never see this scenario take place, as Babcock is a trash coach who loves his grinders and old and useless vets(sorry leaf fans, don’t spam me talking about how much you love babcock “the overrated”)

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

It's also irrelevant to the current discussion since it's asking who is the better player *now*.

The age thing only would have relevancy if the question is "who was the better player at age X?"

What do you mean? The poll is asking what player you'd take going forward

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

The linemate arguement is true for sure, like you said.

It’s one of those scenarios where you wish Matthews had linemates equivalent to Mackinnon’s most common line mates (Rantanen and Landeskog).

Put Matthews with that equivalent, Marner and Nylander for example, and give him 23+ minutes per game with a lot more pp time, like Mackinnon gets. That’s the only true way to gauge who would put up the better numbers.

Sadly, we will never see this scenario take place, as Babcock is a trash coach who loves his grinders and old and useless vets(sorry leaf fans, don’t spam me talking about how much you love babcock “the overrated”)

If we want equality, MacKinnon would need to have someone like Tavares on the Avs to keep other teams a little more honest. And Matthews would actually need to stay healthy for a full season.

 

[Neutral Hockey Fan]

If we want equality, MacKinnon would need to have someone like Tavares on the Avs to keep other teams a little more honest. And Matthews would actually need to stay healthy for a full season.

No doubt. I’m in complete agreement with you that the leafs as a team are miles and miles deeper with more talent when comparing them to a team like Colorado.

That can certainly play a role in hindering the one and only line that has any semblance of nhl talent.

Give Colorado a couple more years in which they can hopefully acquire more talent, and they have the potential to become a solid team in this league

 

[Sojourn]

What do you mean? The poll is asking what player you'd take going forward

Kind of. It says same contracts, and based on what you know about the players now and going forward. The same contract stipulation definitely helps Matthews, as that isn’t a very team friendly one, but you’re then left with a MacKinnon who is clearly better than Matthews currently. That’s the now.

The moving forward part is certainly a tougher thing to gauge, and considering the gap between MacKinnon and Matthews right now, it feels more unicorns and rainbows to assume Matthews can reach the level MacKinnon is at now. Possible, absolutely(look no further than MacKinnon himself), but far from certain. MacKinnon is very much the safe bet here. Yes, he broke out in a big way, but he’s been substantially better for two years now.

As it stands, to vote Matthews you need to make two or three assumptions. 1) Matthews stays healthy and 2) and 3) either MacKinnon regresses a fair bit, and/or Matthews improves a fair bit.

 

[Neutral Hockey Fan]

What do you mean? The poll is asking what player you'd take going forward

That poster already claimed to have not read the OP (for some reason)

She clearly did not see the “pretend they are on identical contracts, who do you take for the next 8 years” (the length of the identical contracts)

 

[Legion34]

They both could do so...it's as if you're blind by the fact MacKinnon is a 100pt player and Matthews struggled to get over the 70pt mark.

There's a reason 80% of the voters chose MacKinnon - he's the better player.

Except Mackinnon has NEVER been a 100 pt player.

And it took matthews 63 games to break 70.....

I’m sure you know why 80 percent of people are choosing mackinnon.......

It’s the same reason the majority took
Laine over matthews
Skej over rielly
Risto over gardiner

And the list goes on and on

 

[DirtDiver]

The discussion is who is the better player *now*. So if Leaf fans want to argue that Matthews is better TODAY, then you should probably compare him to MacKinnon today, and not what MacKinnon did a few years ago. No one is arguing that MacKinnon, in his first three years, is better. The argument is today's version of MacKinnon is the better player.

But again, why do Leaf fans not want to give a straight answer? What are your predictions for Matthews' totals this year?

LMFAO maybe you made the discussion about who is better today but that is not what the op stated. Its over the next 8 YEARS. So if someone wanted to use past seasons to predict the next 8 years then I would think that is the right way to look at it.

I think for the next 2 years Mac will still be the better player but that is when I think he will be surpassed by Mathews.


But you keep focusing on Mac being the better player TODAY.

 

[Legion34]

It was certainly better than what MacKinnon did... but does that actually mean anything? I think the majority feel that no, it doesn’t matter. What MacKinnon did after that was put up 97 points in 74 games, and he followed it up with 99 points in 82 games. That means MacKinnon is either a 100-point player(depending on how you gauge that) or he’s really ****ing close as a 99-point player.

Which means the question isn’t who had the better start, which is what your argument boils down to. It’s whether Matthews can be a 100-point player. Right now, he’s well off the mark. And yes, MacKinnon was even further off the mark, but we also know what he has done since.

And that’s why MacKinnon is dominating this poll. One of them has achieved it. Twice. The other you hope can, at least once, but objectively you would probably say it isn’t a safe bet(and neither was MacKinnon at the time).

Orrrrrr you could also argue that mackinnon significantly regressed over his previous pace and is therefore more probably to have already peaked?

I mean it’s just as logical as arguing that Matthews. Who has to this point always been better... is entering then statistical years where he is most likely to be his best
And improving. and to this point HAS improved every year.

Will just stop? Right when everyone else
Tends to start going? Because you want it to happen?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

No doubt. I’m in complete agreement with you that the leafs as a team are miles and miles deeper with more talent when comparing them to a team like Colorado.

That can certainly play a role in hindering the one and only line that has any semblance of nhl talent.

Give Colorado a couple more years in which they can hopefully acquire more talent, and they have the potential to become a solid team in this league

Where exactly did I say anything about the Leafs depth being "miles and miles better"? The 1C they signed last season as an $11m UFA is better than the Avs 2C. Other than that, the Leafs' "depth" isn't all that impressive. I'd much rather have the Avs roster going forward, no questions asked.

 

[Legion34]

That Matthews is a year younger crutch is ****ing annoying.

And also untrue?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Except Mackinnon has NEVER been a 100 pt player.

And it took matthews 63 games to break 70.....

I’m sure you know why 80 percent of people are choosing mackinnon.......

It’s the same reason the majority took
Laine over matthews
Skej over rielly
Risto over gardiner

And the list goes on and on

Using that logic, Matthews has NEVER even been an 80 point player.

And it took Mack 74 games to score 97 points. Is 27 points in 11 more games good or not?

 

[slobbergob]

Except Mackinnon has NEVER been a 100 pt player.

And it took matthews 63 games to break 70.....

If the "pace" argument applies for Matthews, then it should for MacKinnon as well.

Or it shouldn't for either, which most would prefer.

 

[Sojourn]

Orrrrrr you could also argue that mackinnon significantly regressed over his previous pace and is therefore more probably to have already peaked?

I mean it’s just as logical as arguing that Matthews. Who has to this point always been better... is entering then statistical years where he is most likely to be his best
And improving. and to this point HAS improved every year.

Will just stop? Right when everyone else
Tends to start going? Because you want it to happen?

And so what if MacKinnon peaked? So what if MacKinnon doesn’t get any better? It doesn’t matter, since he is already better than Matthews.

Matthews has not always been better. He wasn’t better this year. Or last year. You keep going back to the age argument. You can’t help it, apparently, because it’s the only argument you have for Matthews. Yes, he started his career better.

And?

And that’s where your argument falls apart, because it turns into “well, he could do the same thing.” Maybe.