Mackinnon or Matthews

[Mikenusca]

Matthews’ moustache has that affect on people

 

[koyvoo]

Matthews’ moustache has that affect on people

C’mon. He’s got great style and fashion sense.

 

[member 149439]

Matthews’ moustache has that affect on people

Takes away from the real problem up top.

 

[Lahey]

I would like to see Matthews score all these goals in a bad team. Or one that didn’t have a ton of great offensive players.

he’s never been an assist guy hitting the 30 mark just once, and hasn’t even yet as of this post this year while MacKinnon gets both in high numbers, and is far more lethal all around.

... he took a last place team to the playoffs his first year. What are you even talking about? As of right now Matthews has 28 assists... he will absolutely get 30 lmfao.

moving goal posts to whatever fits the narrative right?

Oooof maybe we should put him on the sabres? Jack seems to put up plenty of goals and points while not making the playoffs once in his 5 year career. Why couldn’t Matthews (a superior player to Eichel) do the same?

thanks for coming out

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Matthews is one of the best PP players in the league.

-He's 14th in P/60 among all players who've played at least 100 minutes on the PP this year.

-He's 9th in G/60 among all players with the same minute minimum.

-He's 80th in A1/60 among all players with the same minute minimum.

And that's not including raw totals, which you ignore anyway.

Also, his PP ice time has gone up from 2:39 per game last season to 3:16 per game this season. His rates, however, aren't making these drastic jumps you keep saying they would if he got more PP time.

-His P/60 is the only stat that's gone up marginally, going from 6.86 to 6.98.

-His G/60 has gone down from 4.11 to 3.32.

-His A1/60 has gone down from 2.06 to 1.66.

You know what's gone up? The stat that you think shouldn't even count, secondary assists. It's gone up from 0.69 to 1.99. So essentially, his rise in production is due to a stat that you've been in favor of not even being tracked.

 

[crowi]

MacKinnon AINEC

 

[AvsFan29]

His p/60 is off the charts

 

[crowi]

Yeah, I'd rather not have my posting style attacked, and false accusations made against me, but it's clearly just baiting. I've asked him to take it to PM. I've asked him to get back on topic. I have no idea what he's even upset about. At this point, I'm done.

After that exchange I clearly don't have to see anything you write either. Good times.

 

[Dekes For Days]

-He's 14th in P/60 among all players who've played at least 100 minutes on the PP this year.
-He's 9th in G/60 among all players with the same minute minimum.
-He's 80th in A1/60 among all players with the same minute minimum.

Since Matthews entered the league, for all players with 200+ minutes, he is:

-12th in PP points per 60 (10th among forwards, just ahead of Crosby)
-5th in PP primary points per 60
-4th in PP goals per 60

This despite being on the 2nd unit for more than half of that time. That is an elite PP producer.

Also, his PP ice time has gone up from 2:39 per game last season to 3:16 per game this season. His rates, however, aren't making these drastic jumps you keep saying they would if he got more PP time.

That was not my claim at all. Please don't misrepresent. I consistently said that he would maintain his scoring rates, when you and others claimed that his P/60 would drop significantly with minimal amounts more ice time, while providing zero evidence and dismissing my counter-evidence. His rates have maintained, just as I said they would.

 

[jeffff]

If you're going to start threads with "Mathews OR" I suggest you cross off the top 10 players in the league, and then start there.

You won't be as disappointed.

 

[Srsly]

who would you rather have on your team?

Taking contracts into account, I think you’d be hard pressed to find someone who would consider Matthews the more desirable of the two.

I guess it’s a little closer when you take contracts out of the equation though. I believe Matthews is the better goal scorer but Mackinnon is the better playmaker and overall player. Of course it wouldn't be shocking to see Matthews pass him in the near future. They’re both on the same tier.

 

[Dache]

Since Matthews entered the league, for all players with 200+ minutes, he is:

-12th in PP points per 60 (10th among forwards, just ahead of Crosby)
-5th in PP primary points per 60
-4th in PP goals per 60

This despite being on the 2nd unit for more than half of that time. That is an elite PP producer.

That was not my claim at all. Please don't misrepresent. I consistently said that he would maintain his scoring rates, when you and others claimed that his P/60 would drop significantly with minimal amounts more ice time, while providing zero evidence and dismissing my counter-evidence. His rates have maintained, just as I said they would.

So if he’s lower this year in all those categories relative to his peers would that not show that he’s not improving with the added ice time? Sure his raw numbers are going up, but if all top players numbers are going up more then it doesn’t really mean much does it?

 

[Dekes For Days]

So if he’s lower this year in all those categories relative to his peers would that not show that he’s not improving with the added ice time?

He's not lower relative to his peers this year. You see his ranking improve over a bigger sample because it weeds out players having a good run over a small sample. Matthews, in contrast, is consistently among the top, showing that he's an elite PP producer, even through disadvantageous situations.

 

[Dache]

He's not lower relative to his peers this year. You see his ranking improve over a bigger sample because it weeds out players having a good run over a small sample. Matthews, in contrast, is consistently among the top, showing that he's an elite PP producer, even through disadvantageous situations.

Was that other posters rankings wrong then? They all showed he was lower this year than the 3 year sample you used.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

That was not my claim at all. Please don't misrepresent. I consistently said that he would maintain his scoring rates, when you and others claimed that his P/60 would drop significantly with minimal amounts more ice time, while providing zero evidence and dismissing my counter-evidence.

-Asks me not to misrepresent your point of view.
-Goes on to misrepresent what my argument has been, despite the fact I've explained literally a hundred times what my argument is.

My claim was never a definitive statement. It was a "it's not automatic that a player's rates will remain constant or improve with increased ice time". Sometimes it might, sometimes it might not. My argument is that it shouldn't be taken as a guarantee that it will.

His rates have maintained, just as I said they would.

(5on5)
G/60:
This season (16:04) - 1.62
1 year ago (15:00) - 1.35
2 years ago (14:58) - 1.68

A1/60:
This season - 0.58
1 year ago - 0.88
2 years ago - 0.90

P/60:
This season - 2.46
1 year ago - 2.76
2 years ago - 2.91

Add to that the stats I posted in my previous post, where the only thing bumping up his P/60 on the PP from this season versus last is the huge jump in secondary assists, and I'd say the above is, in fact, not true.

His G/60 at 5on5 was at its highest two seasons ago, dropped last year, then went back up to roughly two seasons ago. But his primary assists and points have continued to drop by a large margin with increased ice time.

 

[Tkachuky]

No argument to be had here.

#29

 

[Dekes For Days]

Was that other posters rankings wrong then? They all showed he was lower this year than the 3 year sample you used.

Once again, you see his ranking improve over a bigger sample because it weeds out players having a good run over a small sample. It does not mean he was higher in the ranking in the previous years and dropped; it means people who may be above him in any given year (like this year) drop significantly in surrounding years and over bigger samples, while Matthews does not. PP time is not a very big sample, even for a full year, so you can see some pretty significant swings from year to year for some people.

He is actually 2 rankings higher in PP P/60 this year compared to last year; funny enough, 2 rankings above Mackinnon this year.

 

[DueDiligence]

Yeah, I'd rather not have my posting style attacked, and false accusations made against me, but it's clearly just baiting. I've asked him to take it to PM. I've asked him to get back on topic. I have no idea what he's even upset about. At this point, I'm done.

You know you can just ignore people and not reply.

 

[Dache]

It does not mean he was higher in the ranking in the previous years and dropped

that’s obviously factually incorrect.

 

[dustybreaks]

-Asks me not to misrepresent your point of view.
-Goes on to misrepresent what my argument has been, despite the fact I've explained literally a hundred times what my argument is.

My claim was never a definitive statement. It was a "it's not automatic that a player's rates will remain constant or improve with increased ice time". Sometimes it might, sometimes it might not. My argument is that it shouldn't be taken as a guarantee that it will.



(5on5)
G/60:
This season (16:04) - 1.62
1 year ago (15:00) - 1.35
2 years ago (14:58) - 1.68

A1/60:
This season - 0.58
1 year ago - 0.88
2 years ago - 0.90

P/60:
This season - 2.46
1 year ago - 2.76
2 years ago - 2.91

Add to that the stats I posted in my previous post, where the only thing bumping up his P/60 on the PP from this season versus last is the huge jump in secondary assists, and I'd say the above is, in fact, not true.

His G/60 at 5on5 was at its highest two seasons ago, dropped last year, then went back up to roughly two seasons ago. But his primary assists and points have continued to drop by a large margin with increased ice time.

Matthews is better then god okay. Just look at his p/60, that’s more important then world hunger. Matthews could also end world hunger if he played more on the PP.

 

[DieselBoy]

If you're going to start threads with "Mathews OR" I suggest you cross off the top 10 players in the league, and then start there.

You won't be as disappointed.

*10 years from now...* Matthews or Mantha?

 

[Dekes For Days]

My claim was never a definitive statement.

It was, because you used this unsubstantiated belief to dismiss rate statistics, even when they were necessary for accuracy.

My argument is that it shouldn't be taken as a guarantee that it will.

Nobody has ever "guaranteed" it will remain exactly the same to the decimal point. This is a strawman.

All production is variable, no matter what stat you use. Players don't get the exact same number of points every year, even if their TOI stayed exactly identical, so these standards that you are holding for P/60 are inconsistent with how you treat other stats. There is no evidence that increases in TOI within a reasonable range have a negative effect on production rates, and there is evidence against that claim.

When you ignore rate statistics, you are applying a value of 0 to that extra time, creating wild inconsistencies in comparisons, but all you can ever seem to talk about is the possibility that the decimal may have a negligible change.

Add to that the stats I posted in my previous post, where the only thing bumping up his P/60 on the PP from this season versus last is the huge jump in secondary assists, and I'd say the above is, in fact, not true.

Lol, you're literally just going through all of his statistics (and then separating them to create even smaller samples) to find ones that dropped with increased ice time, while ignoring all of the ones that rose with increased ice time (and the impact that had on the other rates), and claiming that based on one singular example that you are grossly misrepresenting (while excluding years that counter your claim), all rate statistics are null and void. Despite the fact that both his PP P/60 and ES P/60 stayed within normal variance ranges (one slightly up, one slightly down) with increases in ice time, as I predicted all along.

When you make a big deal about minor changes and isolate things like 5v5 secondary assist rates for a ~55 game sample, it's essentially like saying that points are worthless for judging what a player will do because one month that player had 10 points and the next he had 11. It's, quite frankly, ridiculous.

Once again, you also pick the most convenient time to make this argument. You have tried to make this argument twice this season. Both times were at Matthews' lowest P/60 moments, while you completely ignored it the rest of the time when he was above previous years in pretty much everything.

Matthews has a huge sample of this level of production, and it has stayed within a consistent range throughout, regardless of ice time. There is zero evidence that increases in ice time have a negative effect on production rates. There is evidence to the contrary. Matthews is now substantiating that further, by maintaining his rates.

 

[Dekes For Days]

that’s obviously factually incorrect.

No, it is correct. I have explained this twice to you already; not really sure how you aren't understanding.

 

[Dache]

No, it is correct. I have explained this twice to you already; not really sure how you aren't understanding.

I’m not sure why you’re getting so upset. I understand what you’re saying contrary to your insults. The issue is that I disagree with you. If he’s ranked 12th in a stat over the last 3 years, but ranked 14th this year. By definition he is ranked lower among his peers (his peers are other NHL players). So even if his raw totals are increasing, they aren’t increasing as much as his peers.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I’m not sure why you’re getting so upset. I understand what you’re saying contrary to your insults. The issue is that I disagree with you. If he’s ranked 12th in a stat over the last 3 years, but ranked 14th this year. By definition he is ranked lower among his peers (his peers are other NHL players). So even if his raw totals are increasing, they aren’t increasing as much as his peers.

I haven't insulted you. I have explained it to you very nicely now 3 times. Somebody can, for example, rank exactly 15th in 3 consecutive years, and still be 10th over a bigger sample. The individual player's ranking did not change in that instance; the players around him did. He maintained a consistent elite ranking, while someone who may have placed higher in any individual season was not that level of player and dropped off over bigger samples. There isn't that much PP time, even in a full season, so it tends to be pretty variable, unless you're an elite producer like Matthews.

This is in fact Matthews' highest ranked year in PP P/60 so far.