Friedman: Mackinnon injury might force Avs to go big game hunting sooner rather than later ( Toews, Horvat)

[Nucker42]

Done and done.

Would still prefer a deal with a team the Canucks could get a stud d prospect…

Jordan Spence LA or Morrow from Carolina

But obviously have lose anyone for nothing ever again…. Newhook could blossom

 

[Avsfan1921]

Just want to say I appreciate your honest and candid response on the evaluation of your team's own player. Most fans are usually biased when evaluating their own team.

Thank you and I hope I’m wrong. I just have a hard time seeing a player that hasn’t at least shown flashes, taking that big of a step. He needs a reset of some kind but I’m not sure what that is… the Avs put too much expectations on him when they decided to give him the reigns and see what he had at 2c and that’s on them, but I don’t fault that they had expectations of growth. That’s on him for showing none. I like Newhook the kid but the player himself is not NHL quality at this point.

The Avs are in a bind that is somewhat their own doing as they lost quality depth over the offseason, but the injuries at this point cannot have been planned for. They are tight to the cap so roster players must go if they make a trade, but everything left on that roster has their own warts. That’s not to say there aren’t quality players as some definitely are, but there’s no slam dunk trade chips so it’s going to be very difficult to come up with a short term solution.

Personally I’d like to see them ride it out as the only way out is through getting healthy imo. I’d like to see an extended look for rantanen at Center, and maybe nichuskin when he gets healthy, to see what they have for internal options moving forward. They could find “the perfect storm” kind of situation where they can pry a quality player from someone but they’re gonna have to get creative to do so I think.

If they are still in it at the deadline, that’s when they’ll have an opportunity to shore up the roster as a rental player or two will surely be traded for.

 

[nammerus]

Would still prefer a deal with a team the Canucks could get a stud d prospect…

Jordan Spence LA or Morrow from Carolina

But obviously have lose anyone for nothing ever again…. Newhook could blossom

Makes sense. If they can find a team willing to give up a stud D prospect, then all the more power to them. Just don't see many teams giving up stud RHD prospects.

 

[Nucker42]

Makes sense. If they can find a team willing to give up a stud D prospect, then all the more power to them. Just don't see many teams giving up stud RHD prospects.

Same, more banking on a team like LA having so many that they could afford to for a top Center. Brick Faber for example.

 

[Avsfan1921]

True…. Newhook would be a good addition for the long term.

Horvat
Schenn

For

Newhook
Kaut
1st
2nd

I don’t think you’d see too many Avs fan saying no to that deal. Newhook has room to grow and kaut has finally shown decently well this year in a bottom six role but neither are going to be big contributors to a hopeful cup run in the near future whereas Horvat is a much desired type of piece to the Avs. This proposal pretty much depletes what we have left for trade equity excluding roster players so that would suck but the time to push is now. I do think the Avs would have to add more but how much, I don’t know.

 

[Avsfan1921]

Horvat

for

Avs 2023 1st and conditional 2024 1st if Av's win the cup in 2023. if not it becomes a 2025 2nd round pick.


Thought of adding Girard but couldn't figure if it that was a bit to much.

Girards a tricky one to gauge… he has good value but is a limited sort of player due to his size. His play this year hasn’t been bad regardless of what a lot of Avs fans will say but his offensive creativity has went MIA and that’s a concern because he can create a lot when he’s on. Defensively he’s actually above average but gets pushed around and boxed out too easily. Great stick and defensive instincts along with a great transition game but many will write him off due to his size which I can understand to a degree.

 

[lionsDen]

I don’t think you’d see too many Avs fan saying no to that deal. Newhook has room to grow and kaut has finally shown decently well this year in a bottom six role but neither are going to be big contributors to a hopeful cup run in the near future whereas Horvat is a much desired type of piece to the Avs. This proposal pretty much depletes what we have left for trade equity excluding roster players so that would suck but the time to push is now. I do think the Avs would have to add more but how much, I don’t know.

The money don’t work

 

[Avsfan1921]

The money don’t work

There’s have to be money going back for sure. Girard/Manson/Johnson etc would have to go… regardless, I don’t think that deal would be palatable for Vancouver

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

Lafreniere for 3 1st rounders + 2nd rounder

 

[Sinbad]

So in response to losing Mackinnon the avs will essentially commit suicide by acquiring Toews? What terrible speculation.

Nice to see you living up to your profile picture.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

So you're saying trading for Horvat is 100% guaranteed to win the Cup then? Why isn't everyone trying to do that?

There is no guarantee for Cup, but the teams who usually win are the ones that make bigger moves. Colorado stood pat and didnt sell much for years, then last year they shipped out a solid RHD prospect and a 2nd to bolster their 3rd line. They traded multiple futures for a Goalie, traded some late picks for depth, Bolstered their top 4 trading a highly touted RHD in Helleson.

It will be hard to find a team that doesn't sell a lot of future assets to win a cup. Standing pat is what gets you 2nd round exits, 3rd if you're lucky when you face up with a team that bolstered their lineup and crushed you (like when the Oilers got CRUSHED by the Avs)

Horvat

for

Avs 2023 1st and conditional 2024 1st if Av's win the cup in 2023. if not it becomes a 2025 2nd round pick.


Thought of adding Girard but couldn't figure if it that was a bit to much.

Ya...not happening. The condition on the 2024 1st would be top 5 protected only, you still need to add Newhook to this deal as well.

 

[bossram]

There is no guarantee for Cup, but the teams who usually win are the ones that make bigger moves. Colorado stood pat and didnt sell much for years, then last year they shipped out a solid RHD prospect and a 2nd to bolster their 3rd line. They traded multiple futures for a Goalie, traded some late picks for depth, Bolstered their top 4 trading a highly touted RHD in Helleson.

It will be hard to find a team that doesn't sell a lot of future assets to win a cup. Standing pat is what gets you 2nd round exits, 3rd if you're lucky when you face up with a team that bolstered their lineup and crushed you (like when the Oilers got CRUSHED by the Avs)

Or you're a team like the Caps and Blues that maintains a competitive squad every season and eventually breaks through.

Rightly or wrongly, the Canes are an organization that wants to be competitive long-term and don't seem to think it's worth it to blow all their futures on TDL rentals.

They'll add around the edges, but they're not going to trade for the marquee rental. Horvat is not being traded to Carolina, full stop.

 

[Putt Pirate]

Or you're a team like the Caps and Blues that maintains a competitive squad every season and eventually breaks through.

Rightly or wrongly, the Canes are an organization that wants to be competitive long-term and don't seem to think it's worth it to blow all their futures on TDL rentals.

They'll add around the edges, but they're not going to trade for the marquee rental. Horvat is not being traded to Carolina, full stop.

Carolina.....hey don't have 'that' guy. Something they need in my opinion and not something you can pick up off the trade wire. They are a nice team but missing premium scoring talent when it is critical in the playoffs especially.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Lmao Toews isn't big game hunting unless you mean destroying the cap.

Maybe Jeff Carter waives to play there. One can only hope.

 

[Habs Halifax]

They were waiting due to cap reasons. I don't see how they can fit someone under the cap unless someone is out for the rest of the regular season.

Totally see what you are saying. Do you have a undesired contract with less than 2 years in term you would like to send the other way? That might help.

What team close to the cap floor can help with the double retention? Toews at $2.625M fits right? I can see the Blackhawks engaging on this and for all we know Sakic and the Hawks GM is talking with the Coyotes as we speak

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

Or you're a team like the Caps and Blues that maintains a competitive squad every season and eventually breaks through.

Rightly or wrongly, the Canes are an organization that wants to be competitive long-term and don't seem to think it's worth it to blow all their futures on TDL rentals.

They'll add around the edges, but they're not going to trade for the marquee rental. Horvat is not being traded to Carolina, full stop.

St. Louis Blues acquire​	Date​	Buffalo Sabres acquire​
Ryan O`Reilly	July 1, 2018​	Vladimir Sobotka Patrik Berglund Tage Thompson 2019 1st round pick 2021 2nd round pick

The trade that won St.Louis the Cup. Quite a few futures there. No big TDL deals, but they didn't just stick with their drafted roster to win. You can argue this trade of futures had a lot to do with it as well:

St. Louis Blues acquire​	Date​	Philadelphia Flyers acquire​
Brayden Schenn	June 23, 2017​	Jori Lehtera 2017 1st round pick 2018 conditional 1st round pick

This one helped with the O'Reilly trade when they acquired futures instead of a win now piece:

Winnipeg Jets acquire​	Date​	St. Louis Blues acquire​
Paul Stastny	February 26, 2018​	Erik Foley 2018 conditional 1st round pick 2020 conditional 4th round pick

As for Washington, they spent a lot of futures on longer term assets in previous years, and it finally paid off in 2018

 

[Srsly]

"big game" and Toews do not belong in the same sentence

Toews had a big game during the 2012 Stanley cup playoffs.

I actually think Toews could be a good fit for them. He’s probably still a number two center when motivated.

 

[bossram]

Carolina.....hey don't have 'that' guy. Something they need in my opinion and not something you can pick up off the trade wire. They are a nice team but missing premium scoring talent when it is critical in the playoffs especially.

Horvat isn't that guy either.

Would he help a team? Absolutely. But I don't understand why Carolina needs to trade for him.

I agree that Carolina could use more scoring help. I think they'll re-evaluate once they see what Pacioretty still has in the tank.

​

St. Louis Blues acquire​	Date​	Buffalo Sabres acquire​
Ryan O`Reilly	July 1, 2018​	Vladimir Sobotka Patrik Berglund Tage Thompson 2019 1st round pick 2021 2nd round pick

The trade that won St.Louis the Cup. Quite a few futures there. No big TDL deals, but they didn't just stick with their drafted roster to win. You can argue this trade of futures had a lot to do with it as well:

​

St. Louis Blues acquire​	Date​	Philadelphia Flyers acquire​
Brayden Schenn	June 23, 2017​	Jori Lehtera 2017 1st round pick 2018 conditional 1st round pick

This one helped with the O'Reilly trade when they acquired futures instead of a win now piece:

​

Winnipeg Jets acquire​	Date​	St. Louis Blues acquire​
Paul Stastny	February 26, 2018​	Erik Foley 2018 conditional 1st round pick 2020 conditional 4th round pick

As for Washington, they spent a lot of futures on longer term assets in previous years, and it finally paid off in 2018

The first two weren't intended to be rentals. You're arguing against something I didn't say. STL didn't blow their load on TDL rentals and Carolina won't either.

Statsny was a good pickup at the TDL, yes. I wouldn't consider him the "premium" rental I described and a conditional 1st is much less than the cost a guy like Horvat would command.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

Horvat isn't that guy either.

Would he help a team? Absolutely. But I don't understand why Carolina needs to trade for him.

I agree that Carolina could use more scoring help. I think they'll re-evaluate once they see what Pacioretty still has in the tank.


The first two weren't intended to be rentals. You're arguing against something I didn't say. STL didn't blow their load on TDL rentals and Carolina won't either.

Statsny was a good pickup at the TDL, yes. I wouldn't consider him the "premium" rental I described and a conditional 1st is much less than the cost a guy like Horvat would command.

Most teams looking to get Bo is so they can re-sign him. With teams not looking at him as a pure rental (and wanting to be able to offer that 8th year) his value will increase due to this, even for teams wanting him as a rental.

But my point wasn't about Bo's value, it was to prove that St.Louis also spent assets to compete and win a cup. They didnt just sit around and wait for drafted assets to push them over the top. Washington was the same way.

 

[Pyrophorus]

I saw a lineup!!
Everyone is hurt on the Avs?

 

[VikingAv]

I saw a lineup!!
Everyone is hurt on the Avs?

Nah, just 5 top 6 fwds, Byram/Manson, a couple of grinders and a bunch of tweeners. That's normal, right?

 

[bossram]

Most teams looking to get Bo is so they can re-sign him. With teams not looking at him as a pure rental (and wanting to be able to offer that 8th year) his value will increase due to this, even for teams wanting him as a rental.

But my point wasn't about Bo's value, it was to prove that St.Louis also spent assets to compete and win a cup. They didnt just sit around and wait for drafted assets to push them over the top. Washington was the same way.

And my point was not that Carolina shouldn't spend premium assets to improve, where appropriate.

It's that they're not going to do it for a TDL rental. And STL/WAS did not spend premium assets on TDL rentals either. Carolina is not going to re-sign Horvat, he would be a pure rental. Aho, Teravainen, and Pesce need new contracts after next season and they'll need to allocate space for them.

Carolina has shown they will spend assets to contend. Look at KK. The problem is that was just a complete misfire on the wrong target.

 

[lawrence]

Would love to see bo traded just so we can tank 2023.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

And my point was not that Carolina shouldn't spend premium assets to improve, where appropriate.

It's that they're not going to do it for a TDL rental. And STL/WAS did not spend premium assets on TDL rentals either. Carolina is not going to re-sign Horvat, he would be a pure rental. Aho, Teravainen, and Pesce need new contracts after next season and they'll need to allocate space for them.

Carolina has shown they will spend assets to contend. Look at KK. The problem is that was just a complete misfire on the wrong target.

Although I don't disagree, unless Necas successfully moves to Centre, they have no 2c coming up the pipeline, no current 2c and will either need to spend major assets to get one with term (if even available) or hope one falls on their lap as a UFA.

As for Horvat, they could afford the re-sign him. KK has a cheap buyout, or could be included in the deal while adding to it. Cap going up will give them space for Aho, TT and Pesce. TT I don't see getting a massive raise from what he makes now. Most players of his calibre signed for what he makes in long term deals. Pesce will get a nice raise, but I doubt he sees more than 6-7m depending on the cap. Do you see Aho getting more than 10-11m?

 

[Artemi Panarin]

No disrespect but is Jonathan Toews still considered big game?