Maatta to Chicago for Kahun, 5th round pick

[Honour Over Glory]

He WAS bad last year. Its not really debatable.

Hes excellent on the PP but he absolutely was a net negative EV last year. He killed every line he was put on.

If he was playing like he did the first 3 years, we wouldnt be having this conversation.

So you're telling me in the 40+ pts he put up ES, he alone was the sole reason he allowed 40+ goals against even strength?

You're sitting there saying no, when this team should be saying why not try this.

This is why we are in the mess we are in, they refuse the "why not?"

 

[Honour Over Glory]

There is absolutely a place for analytics. I think these things get down to such unbelievable detail that it actually takes the other 4 guys out of the equation. I typically have this discussion when it comes to defensemen, specifically coaches who pair defensive pairings with specific offensive lines. If you are a defenseman and you are playing behind Sidney Crosby, you're going to have really good numbers. If you are a defenseman and you're playing behind Craig Adams, your stats are going to tank.

To get offensive zone time and offensive chances, your 3 forwards are going to have to be good at possessing the puck and developing chances. You as a defenseman don't have a ton of impact on that. That's my general beef. I feel as though people who use analytics for their general argument are people who haven't played the game at a competitive level and use stats to wrap their heads around something they don't have first hand experience with. I was a defenseman. When I got towards the end of playing amateur hockey I was playing the most mins of any defenseman. I typically played behind our worst offensive lines because they needed the help. If someone were taking my advanced stats, they would be atrocious.



If there was one team that needed to see if Money Puck worked it was AZ. If they figured out, that would have been awesome for them. It really hasn't worked. And your example is exactly where my head goes. I couldn't give one **** how Phil is defensively. I really couldn't. Fact is, when Phil Kessel is on the ice he is a threat to score. Period. We need 1 goal, I'm putting Phil out there with a defensive minded player and telling Phil to go get me one. It's this same **** with this growing opinion that faceoffs aren't important. Do you need a Mike Zigomanis in today's NHL? No - there are no places on rosters for him. But if you want to tell me a Tyler Bozak in a 3rd period in a Game 7 for the Cup isn't worth his weight in gold, you're insane. "Well teams that win don't have the edge in faceoffs." I really don't give a ****. They are important.

My man....

 

[Honour Over Glory]

This shit reminds me of when I used to play Twisted Metal with my Brother and his friends. They'd mock me for taking Spectre, the fastest car but the weakest armor and they all took the ones with the most armor. I always beat their asses, because my strength was speed, not armor, they were slow.

Kessel scores, he produces. To fault him for not being good 2-way is ridiculous. This team is slowly turning into a Bylsma team and people are actually wanting it without understanding how f***ing stupid it is.

 

[JTG]

Yeah, with the Metro, you HAVE to be fast. If you have guys that cant skate, get rid of them. I liked the Zucker trade because he can wheel, he can score (not like Phil) but he can also play some defense. In that instance, I think Zucker's defense would offset Phil's defensive liability, but it would be really close.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yeah, with the Metro, you HAVE to be fast. If you have guys that cant skate, get rid of them. I liked the Zucker trade because he can wheel, he can score (not like Phil) but he can also play some defense. In that instance, I think Zucker's defense would offset Phil's defensive liability, but it would be really close.

Yeah I was all for a Brodin + Zucker for Kessel + Maatta swap.

Zucker produces less, but he could have fit well on this team.

It's hilarious to me, people here are whining we need to get rid of Kessel and get more boring types, when in reality we need more creative players.

 

[JTG]

Yeah I was all for a Brodin + Zucker for Kessel + Maatta swap.

Zucker produces less, but he could have fit well on this team.

It's hilarious to me, people here are whining we need to get rid of Kessel and get more boring types, when in reality we need more creative players.

I just think you keep guys that can change the course of a game with a shot. There aren't many of them - we have 3.

 

[Tom Hanks]

“Hard work gets paid off. That’s what I’ve done since I was little. I never got something given to me. I always had to do it myself. I try to work as hard as possible,” - Kahun

“I feel like I always have to start from zero because I have to fight for a spot… It doesn’t matter if I’m good today; I have to wake up tomorrow and be even better… You never can be really happy with yourself because you have to come the next day and be better,” -Kahun

“I had no clue what we were getting [with Kahun]. His work ethic was like he had professional habits. To me, that was a really good sign of his opportunity to play this year. I didn’t expect him to have as big an impact as he’s had. We’ve been able to play him on every line,” - Colliton, Hawks Head Coach

https://thehockeywriters.com/pittsb...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

So you're telling me in the 40+ pts he put up ES, he alone was the sole reason he allowed 40+ goals against even strength?

You're sitting there saying no, when this team should be saying why not try this.

This is why we are in the mess we are in, they refuse the "why not?"

It doesnt work like that, even with scoring 40 even strength points he was soley responsible for thoae 40 goals.

The fact that 19 more goals were scored against than for while he was one the ice, plus all the poor analytics that followed him around no matter who his linemates were seems to point to him being a big part of the problem. Now factor in, you know, having eyeballs and that also points to him being part of the problem.

 

[Pancakes]

There is absolutely a place for analytics. I think these things get down to such unbelievable detail that it actually takes the other 4 guys out of the equation. I typically have this discussion when it comes to defensemen, specifically coaches who pair defensive pairings with specific offensive lines. If you are a defenseman and you are playing behind Sidney Crosby, you're going to have really good numbers. If you are a defenseman and you're playing behind Craig Adams, your stats are going to tank.

To get offensive zone time and offensive chances, your 3 forwards are going to have to be good at possessing the puck and developing chances. You as a defenseman don't have a ton of impact on that. That's my general beef. I feel as though people who use analytics for their general argument are people who haven't played the game at a competitive level and use stats to wrap their heads around something they don't have first hand experience with. I was a defenseman. When I got towards the end of playing amateur hockey I was playing the most mins of any defenseman. I typically played behind our worst offensive lines because they needed the help. If someone were taking my advanced stats, they would be atrocious. Pucks came in, pucks went out, pucks a majority of the time were back instantaneously.



If there was one team that needed to see if Money Puck worked it was AZ. If they figured out, that would have been awesome for them. It really hasn't worked. And your example is exactly where my head goes. I couldn't give one **** how Phil is defensively. I really couldn't. Fact is, when Phil Kessel is on the ice he is a threat to score. Period. We need 1 goal, I'm putting Phil out there with a defensive minded player and telling Phil to go get me one. It's this same **** with this growing opinion that faceoffs aren't important. Do you need a Mike Zigomanis in today's NHL? No - there are no places on rosters for him. But if you want to tell me a Tyler Bozak in a 3rd period in a Game 7 for the Cup isn't worth his weight in gold, you're insane. "Well teams that win don't have the edge in faceoffs." I really don't give a ****. They are important.

Context is certainly important when using analytics. Things like zone starts and what players you get played with definitely matter.

Having said that, I don't agree that Arizona is proof that relying on analytics is a failure. For one thing, we're living proof of the opposite. JR leaned heavily on analytics when bringing in players like Bonino and Hagelin. He even specifically mentioned paying attention to them when he got signed as GM. Why the Penguins have gotten away from that since then is anyone's guess. Maybe Butterbean helped drive that, or maybe JR couldn't resist some of his older worse tendencies.

I also think Arizona has been plagued a lot by mediocre drafting and bad luck draft lottery luck. Analytics haven't solved the draft yet as far as I know, so even if a team like Arizona likes to use them they might still need to rely on good scouting to find talent in the draft, and given their meager resources I doubt they have a great scouting staff.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Context is certainly important when using analytics. Things like zone starts and what players you get played with definitely matter.

Having said that, I don't agree that Arizona is proof that relying on analytics is a failure. For one thing, we're living proof of the opposite. JR leaned heavily on analytics when bringing in players like Bonino and Hagelin. He even specifically mentioned paying attention to them when he got signed as GM. Why the Penguins have gotten away from that since then is anyone's guess. Maybe Butterbean helped drive that, or maybe JR couldn't resist some of his older worse tendencies.

I also think Arizona has been plagued a lot by mediocre drafting and bad luck draft lottery luck. Analytics haven't solved the draft yet as far as I know, so even if a team like Arizona likes to use them they might still need to rely on good scouting to find talent in the draft, and given their meager resources I doubt they have a great scouting staff.

I think we need to get away from giving Bots so much credit for what JR has done.

The guy hasn’t been impressive in Buffalo and that ROR trade was laughable. Bots was assistant GM under Shero and somehow dumb moves happened then as well.

He’s not the secret genius people seem to think IMHO.

 

[Pancakes]

I think we need to get away from giving Bots so much credit for what JR has done.

The guy hasn’t been impressive in Buffalo and that ROR trade was laughable. Bots was assistant GM under Shero and somehow dumb moves happened then as well.

He’s not the secret genius people seem to think IMHO.

Probably not and the ROR trade is as bad as signing JJ was, if not worse. Tbh it's probably worse.

But anyways my point is the Pens have used analytics and have done well with that approach as many of the guys they brought in during the Cup wins were strong possession drivers.

 

[HandshakeLine]

“Hard work gets paid off. That’s what I’ve done since I was little. I never got something given to me. I always had to do it myself. I try to work as hard as possible,” - Kahun

“I feel like I always have to start from zero because I have to fight for a spot… It doesn’t matter if I’m good today; I have to wake up tomorrow and be even better… You never can be really happy with yourself because you have to come the next day and be better,” -Kahun

“I had no clue what we were getting [with Kahun]. His work ethic was like he had professional habits. To me, that was a really good sign of his opportunity to play this year. I didn’t expect him to have as big an impact as he’s had. We’ve been able to play him on every line,” - Colliton, Hawks Head Coach

https://thehockeywriters.com/pittsb...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Sounds like we got another problematic locker room on our hands with this kid!

 

[Gurglesons]

I think we need to get away from giving Bots so much credit for what JR has done.

The guy hasn’t been impressive in Buffalo and that ROR trade was laughable. Bots was assistant GM under Shero and somehow dumb moves happened then as well.

He’s not the secret genius people seem to think IMHO.

ROR trade was likely prompted by ownership especially considering he was moved to St Louis before Buffalo had to pay a bonus.

Easy to just criticize trades on the players rather than understand the business side of things.

I know how my director level management would feel if one of our employees in a leadership role came out and said what ROR said.

The Montour and Skinner deals are very good on top of that.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Sounds like we got another problematic locker room on our hands with this kid!

Hopefully he doesn't celebrate goals too much or comes off as cocky. That's a Sully death blow for sure

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Probably not and the ROR trade is as bad as signing JJ was, if not worse. Tbh it's probably worse.

But anyways my point is the Pens have used analytics and have done well with that approach as many of the guys they brought in during the Cup wins were strong possession drivers.

Ya I have no idea how the hell they just ignored how bad JJ’s numbers were. Tons of advanced stats people kept showing how pitiful his numbers were...

Seemed a majority of people knew it was a shitty move and the numbers showed it as well...

I was willing to not overreact and wait and see how JJ did, but I’m not the GM. I’m not the one who has to clean up the mess and all signs pointed to it being a really bad move before the deal was ever done. That means JR ignored all those red flags and that’s worrisome.

What scares me more is he told us JJ was a puck mover and that’s why I was willing to be patient with the signing.

ROR trade was likely prompted by ownership especially considering he was moved to St Louis before Buffalo had to pay a bonus.

Easy to just criticize trades on the players rather than understand the business side of things.

I know how my director level management would feel if one of our employees in a leadership role came out and said what ROR said.

The Montour and Skinner deals are very good on top of that.

Bots hasn’t done anything to suggest he’s some prodigy, so no clue why the perception he was responsible for JRs success remains.

Shero and JR made plenty of bad moves under his watch, and despite any defense you want to make of him, he hasn’t done that well in Buffalo.

JR has a track record of being brilliant and then going to krazytown without warning. Did it in Carolina and has now followed that pattern with the Pens.

Bots being this mythical figure around here that sucks away the credit for JR’s best moves is idiotic at best.

 

[Freeptop]

Errey will say it the first time he scores.

Let's be real. Errey will say it the first time he steps on the ice for warmups.

 

[canadianguy77]

The Montour and Skinner deals are very good on top of that.

They had to sign him, but that is not a good deal. In 3 years it will probably be the worst contract in the league.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Not sure I'd categorize the Skinner deal as a good one. They're paying a complimentary scorer who doesn't do anything when he's not scoring $9 million per year. IMO, that's the kind of money you pay to elite players, not ~60 point one dimensional complimentary types with a track record of serious head trauma.

 

[Gurglesons]

They had to sign him, but that is not a good deal. In 3 years it will probably be the worst contract in the league.

The actual trade was what I was referring to.

The contract is at least in line with the Hornqvist and Rust deals. Not a steal, but not the anchor some want to make it. Dude is behind only Matthews and Connor in the last couple years at ES goal production.

 

[KIRK]

Ya I have no idea how the hell they just ignored how bad JJ’s numbers were. Tons of advanced stats people kept showing how pitiful his numbers were...

Seemed a majority of people knew it was a ****ty move and the numbers showed it as well...

I was willing to not overreact and wait and see how JJ did, but I’m not the GM. I’m not the one who has to clean up the mess and all signs pointed to it being a really bad move before the deal was ever done. That means JR ignored all those red flags and that’s worrisome.

What scares me more is he told us JJ was a puck mover and that’s why I was willing to be patient with the signing.



Bots hasn’t done anything to suggest he’s some prodigy, so no clue why the perception he was responsible for JRs success remains.

Shero and JR made plenty of bad moves under his watch, and despite any defense you want to make of him, he hasn’t done that well in Buffalo.

JR has a track record of being brilliant and then going to krazytown without warning. Did it in Carolina and has now followed that pattern with the Pens.

Bots being this mythical figure around here that sucks away the credit for JR’s best moves is idiotic at best.

I don't think Bots was the key in JR's best moves through June 2017. I do think he helped prevent JR from making stupid ones.

 

[Peat]

The Skinner deal could look a bit silly if the cap does stop marching forwards but even if it does, its still only 2m over what Kane/JvR etc.etc. were getting, and not a huge amount more as a percentage than when he signed his previous contract.

If the cap does keep marching forwards, this deal will look completely normal.

 

[JTG]

Context is certainly important when using analytics. Things like zone starts and what players you get played with definitely matter.

Having said that, I don't agree that Arizona is proof that relying on analytics is a failure. For one thing, we're living proof of the opposite. JR leaned heavily on analytics when bringing in players like Bonino and Hagelin. He even specifically mentioned paying attention to them when he got signed as GM. Why the Penguins have gotten away from that since then is anyone's guess. Maybe Butterbean helped drive that, or maybe JR couldn't resist some of his older worse tendencies.

I also think Arizona has been plagued a lot by mediocre drafting and bad luck draft lottery luck. Analytics haven't solved the draft yet as far as I know, so even if a team like Arizona likes to use them they might still need to rely on good scouting to find talent in the draft, and given their meager resources I doubt they have a great scouting staff.

You really didn't need an analytic to show the value of Bonino and Hagelin - their value and positives were long and documented. That being said, outside of a few hot months with Kessel, were Hags and Bonino anything aside from defensive specialists? I'd say no. They were two underwhelming players. I don't even think you can chalk up HBK to analytics, but rather dumb luck.

The Penguins have probably moved away from analytics because of exactly what has been said - they help, they may show some things the eye misses (zone starts is a good stat, IMO, and quality of competition is a stat I have liked), but eye test in this game will always trump an advanced stat, I think.

 

[Pancakes]

You really didn't need an analytic to show the value of Bonino and Hagelin - their value and positives were long and documented. That being said, outside of a few hot months with Kessel, were Hags and Bonino anything aside from defensive specialists? I'd say no. They were two underwhelming players. I don't even think you can chalk up HBK to analytics, but rather dumb luck.

The Penguins have probably moved away from analytics because of exactly what has been said - they help, they may show some things the eye misses (zone starts is a good stat, IMO, and quality of competition is a stat I have liked), but eye test in this game will always trump an advanced stat, I think.

It's a mistake to rely on either one too heavily. You take the scouts words, and you take the stats, and you try to make an informed decision based on both.

I think if you lean too heavily in one direction you start making mistakes.

 

[madinsomniac]

Context is certainly important when using analytics. Things like zone starts and what players you get played with definitely matter.

Having said that, I don't agree that Arizona is proof that relying on analytics is a failure. For one thing, we're living proof of the opposite. JR leaned heavily on analytics when bringing in players like Bonino and Hagelin. He even specifically mentioned paying attention to them when he got signed as GM. Why the Penguins have gotten away from that since then is anyone's guess. Maybe Butterbean helped drive that, or maybe JR couldn't resist some of his older worse tendencies.

I also think Arizona has been plagued a lot by mediocre drafting and bad luck draft lottery luck. Analytics haven't solved the draft yet as far as I know, so even if a team like Arizona likes to use them they might still need to rely on good scouting to find talent in the draft, and given their meager resources I doubt they have a great scouting staff.

Tom Wilson took liberties and the old school mentality in our front office took over... and its a shame because had we kept trying to use guys like sherry and replacing them with cheaper young guys similar like dea and kept winning, then the old school mentality would have died off as teams embraced skill over size.

Instead we just leaned into the whole grit mentality again and went right back to the funk we were in before

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I don't think Bots was the key in JR's best moves through June 2017. I do think he helped prevent JR from making stupid ones.

I don’t think he really did because...

- He didn’t stop Shero from doing dumb moves, especially think summer 2013...

- JR has once again been the most Jekyll and Hyde GM I’ve ever witnessed the last couple decades.

- The ROR trade was so god awful that anyone telling me the guy who made this trade was the kind of guy who stopped others from doing dumb shit... I’d have to worry about your dome being cracked.