Maatta to Chicago for Kahun, 5th round pick

[UnrealMachine]

To add to this stuff about Botterill, I don't particularly care for people complaining about Guerin so much. We have no idea who advises JR to do what, let alone what Guerin, specifically, advises or if JR even listens to his AGs or just freelances. Or to what degree ownership suggestions factor into things.

TL;DR nobody blaming Guerin for anything has any idea what he does or has done.

Don't worry, the Morehouse Truthers will be out next year (election cycle) and then we'll REALLY get to the bottom (top?) of who is ultimately pulling the strings in this organization.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I think people infer that losing Botts was tough because management has made one awful decision after another since he left in May 2017. The team really has gone to hell since that time period: I’m not sure how much Botts had to do with it. Is it just a coincidence that management has performed very poorly since he left?

There is ample evidence that many poor decisions were made with Bots around during both Shero and JRs time as GM.

Like I mentioned yesterday, that embarrassing cap situation after the deadline happened with Bots around... and that was his area where you think JR would have taken his advice.

Bots just happened to leave the same time Wilson took up rent in JRs dome and he became obsessed with toughness and pushback robble robble.

Bots wasn’t going to stop what has happened... he didn’t have the influence people think and his time in Buffalo has exposed him to a degree.

People just need to accept JR is a mad genius capable of brilliance and utter stupidity.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

There is ample evidence that many poor decisions were made with Bots around during both Shero and JRs time as GM.

Like I mentioned yesterday, that embarrassing cap situation after the deadline happened with Bots around... and that was his area where you think JR would have taken his advice.

Bots just happened to leave the same time Wilson took up rent in JRs dome and he became obsessed with toughness and pushback robble robble.

Bots wasn’t going to stop what has happened... he didn’t have the influence people think and his time in Buffalo has exposed him to a degree.

People just need to accept JR is a mad genius capable of brilliance and utter stupidity.

Or maybe it isn't a binary choice that Bots is good/bad. Same way it could be possible that JR is good/bad

Perhaps they had a good synergy where they balanced each other out from making dumb moves? Maybe Guerin doesn't push back enough and question JR?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Or maybe it isn't a binary choice that Bots is good/bad. Same way it could be possible that JR is good/bad

Perhaps they had a good synergy where they balanced each other out from making dumb moves? Maybe Guerin doesn't push back enough and question JR?

This has nothing to do with assigning labels of good or bad on an individual.

Once again, how did the 2015 post deadline cap situation happen with Bots around if he had such a heavy influence on JR?

You’d think the resident cap expert that is this great JR whisperer would have got him to avoid that situation...

People who think Bots had the greatest influence on JR are creating narratives that aren’t reality.

Bots was one voice of several that JR listened to, but ultimately JR does what he wants and feels is best.

When JR decided they needed more grit and toughness, Bots wasn’t going to change that.

No clue how this silliness with Bots got started around here, but it’s quite misguided.

 

[Pens x]

I guess Horny has negative value according to the "Trade board." Will we have to retain salary on him too?

We will have to retain salary or take on another overpaid crappy player; pick your poison. I know Hornqvist defenders claim injuries hurt his production, but why would he go play at the worlds right after the season if he was so hurt? Would you want him on your team? He scored something like 4 goals in the last 40 games. His body will only continue to breakdown from his style of play.

If he had a year left on his deal, sure, maybe someone would want him for a playoff run. But you will need to find a horrible gm to trade for Hornqvist and his contract that runs through 2023.

This was just another bad decision by JR which has become the norm for him since the day we hoisted the cup.

 

[Pens x]

Was Shero the GM the next summer?

Giving Adams a two year deal was enough proof he had gone temporarily insane.

There is no one I hate more in hockey than Shero, but JR was even more incompetent with the Jack Johnson deal.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

This has nothing to do with assigning labels of good or bad on an individual.

Once again, how did the 2015 post deadline cap situation happen with Bots around if he had such a heavy influence on JR?

You’d think the resident cap expert that is this great JR whisperer would have got him to avoid that situation...

People who think Bots had the greatest influence on JR are creating narratives that aren’t reality.

Bots was one voice of several that JR listened to, but ultimately JR does what he wants and feels is best.

When JR decided they needed more grit and toughness, Bots wasn’t going to change that.

No clue how this silliness with Bots got started around here, but it’s quite misguided.

I should have also added: maybe Bots doesn't have someone in Buff to question his moves either.

I'm not a Bots or JR fan, but it just seemed like for the majority of time they worked quite well together.

And there's a TON of conjecture being spread in this thread about them because it's basically impossible to know the sphere of influence each individual has within ANY organization. We're at best guessing what has occurred.

Maybe all this time it was JR's waiter at PF Changs who was pushing all the right buttons and that waiter got fired in the summer of 2017...

 

[Pens x]

There is ample evidence that many poor decisions were made with Bots around during both Shero and JRs time as GM.

Like I mentioned yesterday, that embarrassing cap situation after the deadline happened with Bots around... and that was his area where you think JR would have taken his advice.

Bots just happened to leave the same time Wilson took up rent in JRs dome and he became obsessed with toughness and pushback robble robble.

Bots wasn’t going to stop what has happened... he didn’t have the influence people think and his time in Buffalo has exposed him to a degree.

People just need to accept JR is a mad genius capable of brilliance and utter stupidity.

I think people definitely overrate Botterill’s influence but I can also understand why people think he was valuable. Again, literally every decision this team has made since he left had been god awful. However, Botts isn’t really doing much in Buffalo besides donating ROR to St. Louis.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I think people definitely overrate Botterill’s influence but I can also understand why people think he was valuable. Again, literally every decision this team has made since he left had been god awful. However, Botts isn’t really doing much in Buffalo besides donating ROR to St. Louis.

Bots was moved to AGM in 2009 under Shero, yet despite his presence Shero made a huge mess and got himself fired.

JR came in and right away discussed that he wanted to surround his stars with more skill and have four scoring lines. He had some missteps the first couple years and a big mess to clean up, but he eventually did what he said he would.

Then Wilson got in his head and he went off the deep end the same time Bots left. It was merely a coincidence, nothing more.

The shit show under Shero from 2009 on, the 2015 deadline cap debacle and the mess in Buf the last two years should be ample evidence that Bots wasn’t some whispering savant to Shero and JR.

Let’s call it like it is... Bots is just a mythical vessel created around here to take credit from JRs accomplishments for those angry with JR the last couple of seasons.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think it's ultimately on JR one way or the other. That's one consequence of being the guy in charge. But I think there is still room to at least speculate that Botterill was, if nothing else, a good foil for JR's hyperactivity. I don't buy that he was this secret master, either. That's silly. But I think the more voices of reason that JR has around the better. And it's not out of the question that Bots was one such individual.

But yeah, I mean... JR is who he is. Him going from hero to zero is just kind of his longstanding MO.

 

[ronduguayshair]

This has nothing to do with assigning labels of good or bad on an individual.

Once again, how did the 2015 post deadline cap situation happen with Bots around if he had such a heavy influence on JR?

You’d think the resident cap expert that is this great JR whisperer would have got him to avoid that situation...

People who think Bots had the greatest influence on JR are creating narratives that aren’t reality.

Bots was one voice of several that JR listened to, but ultimately JR does what he wants and feels is best.

When JR decided they needed more grit and toughness, Bots wasn’t going to change that.

No clue how this silliness with Bots got started around here, but it’s quite misguided.

Preach on brother

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean the 2015 cap situation happened because Malkin Hornqvist and Ehrhoff were all injured right?

 

[Freeptop]

In retrospect, considering Botterill's tenure with the Sabres, it's interesting to realize that despite being the obvious heir-apparent when Shero was fired, Botterill clearly didn't impress Morehouse, Lemieux or Burkle enough to get the promotion to GM. To the point where they reached out to Rutherford, who at the time was pretty much about to start retirement, and wasn't even looking for a job.

 

[Gurglesons]

In retrospect, considering Botterill's tenure with the Sabres, it's interesting to realize that despite being the obvious heir-apparent when Shero was fired, Botterill clearly didn't impress Morehouse, Lemieux or Burkle enough to get the promotion to GM. To the point where they reached out to Rutherford, who at the time was pretty much about to start retirement, and wasn't even looking for a job.

They also interviewed Doug McLean so..

 

[HandshakeLine]

They also interviewed Doug McLean so..

God, I forgot about that. I guess things could have been worse.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

They also interviewed Doug McLean so..

And ol creepy Pierre too, right?

 

[Peat]

God, I forgot about that. I guess things could have been worse.

To be unnecessarily serious, I don't see how they could have feasibly gone any better, JMFJ or no.

 

[Gurglesons]

To be unnecessarily serious, I don't see how they could have feasibly gone any better, JMFJ or no.

Definitely worth remembering. I hate JR, but nobody can take away the work he AND Shero (and his drafting group) did to make this team turn around from 2013-14.

For those doubting my hate of JR. I once again bring up this:

Who should be the next GM of the Penguins?

 

[Turin]

This trade has gone from A- to C btw

 

[billybudd]

And ol creepy Pierre too, right?

Pierre at least has some degree of expertise in certain areas. Some of these areas may be pointless, but he does have a habit of correctly evaluating the usefulness of players way before they do anything in the NHL. I'm positive I've seen him go bonkers about a six round draft pick who "should have been picked way earlier" and would go on to have a solid NHL career, though I'm blanking on any specific player he did this with. I've also seen him express serious reservations about supposed blue chippers who would go on to become nothing.

Judging from Sportsnet, Doug MacLean doesn't seem to know anything about anything. You could pick any random guy out of any arena in the league and get analysis that was no more dumb than anything MacLean says.

 

[HandshakeLine]

This trade has gone from A- to C btw

Hahaha, what?

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Hahaha, what?

It's still an A, he's just mad that we might have MF'in Jack Johnson for a while.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It's still an A, he's just mad that we might have MF'in Jack Johnson for a while.

But that has nothing to do with this trade?

 

[Turin]

But that has nothing to do with this trade?

JR said it was either him or Johnson, so now all it means is one less person blocking the JJ from second pairing

 

[HandshakeLine]

JR said it was either him or Johnson, so now all it means is one less person blocking the JJ from second pairing

If Sullivan plays JJ on the second pairing, that would indicate a bigger problem than JJ, no?