ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Top pairing: Wash
- Keith/Coulter vs Coffey/Flamen
I don't have much of a gap at all between Keith and Coffey all time personally. I made as much clear in the HoH Top 100 project so don't want people say I'm just over inflating Keith because I drafted him. Pretty sure everyone here or at least most know I've been vocal in my eval of Coffey.
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With that being said, for the sake of integrity Coffey has a nod here. Still don't think it's much, but I'll say it's more than 3 spots as I have above. Beyond that, there are some critical points to be made about Coffey:
- He played in in the most wide open era of all time for 1 dynasty in Edmonton, which featured Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Anderson, etc, etc.
- He then went and played a few years with Mario, a young Jagr, Recchi, on a team that was good enough to win back to back Cups. Pitt won the 2nd one a few months after Coffey was traded by Bowman, btw w/Larry Murphy anchoring the D.
- He then went to LA and played with Gretzky again for a brief stint
Now who are the C's on Portland?
- He then went to Detroit and played on another dynasty in Detroit with Steve Yzerman and company.
Hooley Smith
Mickey MacKay
Bill Thoms
Mel Bridgman
It'd say that is a very, very far cry from Gretzky, Mario and Yzerman. Like other side of the universe.
I don't know if I've ever seen a player who benefited from playing around so many superstars over such a great length of time. Loaded offensive rosters, top to bottom many times. Wide open leagues with ride open play style (certainly all the way through the mid 90's when he got to Detroit). Coffey simply doesn't have the F support to be anywhere near as effective as his VsX would indicate. I'll argue that until the end of days. Nothing personal but I hope people can see there is simply no correlation between the Rosebuds and the overwhelming talent Coffey enjoyed playing with in real life.
Fit with Patrick? Sure. Won't argue that. Patrick liked rushing Dman so in that sense, the fit is perfectly fine.
But the drop off in terms of talent around him, in an offensive light, is staggering. Nels Stewart is your best offensive player, out of his normal position and Blake Wheeler. By VsX. Obviously MacKay and Smith are better offensive players but neither are worth Bowie and I have Bowie @ Cowley's level and am fine if people want to argue him slightly lower.
Coffey is elite offensively on the surface, but the simple reality is he never played with this little talent offensively. We simply can't say his output would be the same trying to carry the Rosebuds. There isn't anyone there remotely close to Gretzky or Mario and nobody can even claim to be on Yzerman's level offensively, though Stewart is close.
Please don't try and demean Paul Coffey for playing with greatness then brush aside my criticisms of Beliveau and Olmstead's team accomplishments as though they did not benefit from tremendous team support.
So, rather than emulate what Coffey had in real life a borderline impossibility in a 40 team draft. My team is built around his skillset as a skilled puck carrier and offensive playmaker providing him the support and the freedom to take risk and help generate the offence. This type of model was employed by my assistant coach in Vancouver and your own coach.
You can value Coffey however you like, but I flat out disagree that he is that close to Keith. Keith is all around better, that I can't disagree but Coffey was drafted with the purpose of being the offensive fulcrum on the squad. Coffey is in my top 15 all time while Keith is in my top 30. The difference between an above average and a below average #1D at 40 teams.
Coulter is superior to Flaman but both are around average at 40 teams as a 2D.
So depending on your personal views on Coffey this is at worst a wash to an advantage for Portland.
Second pairings - I like to occasionally look at tier lists created by esteemed members to help calibrate my thoughts about players (ATD 2017 Draft Thread IV) @Sturminator made one back in 2017.
Art Duncan top ~96
Gary Bergman top top ~123
Fred Lake and Hamby Shore do not make his list and look awfully out of place on an ATD second pairing. The second pairing matchup is probably the biggest mismatch in this series and is a huge advantage for Portland.
Third pairings,
Girardi has a better norris/ast record?
Seriously?
He has one 6th place finish in Norris voting an 8th and 19th in AST voting
Seabrook has 4 seasons of actually receiving votes compared to Girardi's 2. Seabrook was apart of the closest thing we've had to a dynasty in modern times as an integral piece as a non-flashy defensive defenseman. They are probably a wash at best.
Ivanov clearly the best of the group?
How is his record anymore impressive than
Loughlin's
1924 PCHA 1st Team All-Star
1921, 1922, 1923 PCHA 2nd Team All-Star
All his AST recognition came in mid 60's soviet hockey, you can't just give his all star team results without the years for Soviet hockey.