Louis Magnus Division Finals - Pittsburgh AC (1) vs Portland Rosebuds (2)

[Dreakmur]

I've never said "magic boost" sir. I simply happen to value, and always have, proven chemistry.

You said Bowie and Russell get big boosts due to chemistry. As I said, there's no logical reason to think they would be at all better than they were.

If you don't value it at all, fine. That's what makes us human beings, not robots. I can't win over everyone. It's not possible so therefor not worth worrying over.

I do value chemistry, but I think real-world chemistry is being over-valued. Look at some of the players being sold for chemistry purposes.

Reggie Leach on a 1st line is horrifyingly bad. No amount of chemistry can erase that.

Blair Russell, while a good defensive player, is a seriously weak offensive player. No amount of chemistry can erase that.

But there is a difference between THINKING a line can work well, and KNOWING it can. Sure, I don't have a complete line (2nd pairing is complete though) reconstructed but I gave Beliveau/Olmstead a RW who, IMO, pretty closely resembles the RW they would have been skated with in real life. And that RW's offense is well above Cournoyer's and how far is Balderis below Geoffrion offensively? If at all?

That's a well-created line... but not because Oldstead and Beliveau played together.

So I already have 2/3 of a real life line on my top 3 lines. And on each line, I either matched or exceeded what the real life duo skated with, w/ Balderis/Harris/Westfall.

Really strong 1st line and elite shut-down line. Second line is Bowie and two plugs IMO.

Defensive pairings are even more important in my eyes. They generally play heavier minutes than most forwards, there are, IMO more nuances to playing back there, especially playing 2 way hockey.

Depends entirely on the system. Most systems nowadays don't leave the defensemen unsupported by the forwards. It takes all 5 guys working together, with the centers usually most entwined with each other player.

 

[ImporterExporter]

You said Bowie and Russell get big boosts due to chemistry. As I said, there's no logical reason to think they would be at all better than they were.



I do value chemistry, but I think real-world chemistry is being over-valued. Look at some of the players being sold for chemistry purposes.

Reggie Leach on a 1st line is horrifyingly bad. No amount of chemistry can erase that.

Blair Russell, while a good defensive player, is a seriously weak offensive player. No amount of chemistry can erase that.



That's a well-created line... but not because Oldstead and Beliveau played together.



Really strong 1st line and elite shut-down line. Second line is Bowie and two plugs IMO.



Depends entirely on the system. Most systems nowadays don't leave the defensemen unsupported by the forwards. It takes all 5 guys working together, with the centers usually most entwined with each other player.

Smokey Harris is a "plug" . Especially after the bio I put up? I'll let the voters look at it and decide.

• League Leader in Assists 2x (1919-20 and 1923-24)
• League Leader in Points (1920-21) - Only winger EVER to do this in the PCHA
  
• League Leader in Penalty Minutes (1913-1914)
• Stanley Cup Playoff Points Leader (1915-1916)
• Stanley Cup Playoff Assists Leader (1915-1916)
• PCHA Playoff Goals Leader (1920-21)
• PCHA Playoff Points Leader (1920-21)
• 4 x PCHA League Champion (1916, 1921, 1922, 1923)
• PCHA First All-Team (1912*, 1913, 1916, 1917**, 1919, 1920, 1921***)

Oh, and on top of the world class skating speed and best in league back checking. If THAT's a plug, I'm in the wrong league haha.

*Only 1 AS team in 1912. Harris was reserve player
**Unanimous choice at RW (Played for Portland)
***Utility position


Blair Russell was the plug who fed Bowie for A LOT of his goals. His offense is barely worse than Bertuzzi and Russell brings so much more to the game beyond that anyway. Again, voters.

 

[Dreakmur]

Smokey Harris is a "plug" . Especially after the bio I put up? I'll let the voters look at it and decide.

• League Leader in Assists 2x (1919-20 and 1923-24)
• League Leader in Points (1920-21) - Only winger EVER to do this in the PCHA
  
• League Leader in Penalty Minutes (1913-1914)
• Stanley Cup Playoff Points Leader (1915-1916)
• Stanley Cup Playoff Assists Leader (1915-1916)
• PCHA Playoff Goals Leader (1920-21)
• PCHA Playoff Points Leader (1920-21)
• 4 x PCHA League Champion (1916, 1921, 1922, 1923)
• PCHA First All-Team (1912*, 1913, 1916, 1917**, 1919, 1920, 1921***)

Oh, and on top of the world class skating speed and best in league back checking. If THAT's a plug, I'm in the wrong league haha.

*Only 1 AS team in 1912. Harris was reserve player
**Unanimous choice at RW (Played for Portland)
***Utility position

This is the challenge of trying to evaluate a player in such a small league. Half the forwards in the league would be top-10 in scoring. Such a huge percentage of the players get named to all-star teams that it's really tough to know how valuable that is. That's why I put so much work into trying to combine the NHL, PCHA, and WCHL.

When you account for the multiple leagues, Harris' offensive game was not particularly strong.

You did do a nice job fleshing out his defensive game, so kudos for that.

Blair Russell was the plug who fed Bowie for A LOT of his goals. His offense is barely worse than Bertuzzi and Russell brings so much more to the game beyond that anyway. Again, voters.

His scoring totals were generally far behind the leaders. Apply the typical V1 formula to him - considering it was often his line mate who was 1 - and he comes out with a score of like 54.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

His scoring totals were generally far behind the leaders. Apply the typical V1 formula to him - considering it was often his line mate who was 1 - and he comes out with a score of like 54.

Even Vs1 is probably fairly generous to that generation, though it's a good starting point.

 

[ImporterExporter]

This is the challenge of trying to evaluate a player in such a small league. Half the forwards in the league would be top-10 in scoring. Such a huge percentage of the players get named to all-star teams that it's really tough to know how valuable that is. That's why I put so much work into trying to combine the NHL, PCHA, and WCHL.

When you account for the multiple leagues, Harris' offensive game was not particularly strong.

You did do a nice job fleshing out his defensive game, so kudos for that.



His scoring totals were generally far behind the leaders. Apply the typical V1 formula to him - considering it was often his line mate who was 1 - and he comes out with a score of like 54.

Oh, I've never said Harris is anything better than average offensively. Numerous times. In fact I recall posting every LW on a 2nd line in the draft and Harris' total that you gave me (68 IIRC) was about smack dab in the middle of 40 teams. So me saying he's an average scoring LW, I think, is very accurate.

Now, couple in the fact he was also very highly regarded defensively, often being noted as covering huge amounts of ice, back checking strenuously, etc, etc, I happen to see his offensive value in an even better light. Why? Because on this line, he isn't the sole defensive stopper. He can go in deep with Bowie and Russell can support. D can jump in the rush and a winger can and will drop back. If he was an offensive only player in real life, yeah, blah. Given he was the complete opposite of one way, and he showed the ability to blow up offensively, I like the chances of him succeeding well here.

And obviously everyone will interpret how a line works/couldn't work differently. And I'm glad. No point in having this fun draft if we all agree across the board haha.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

I personally think Duncan Keith was the best player on Chicago for a LONG time, certainly through their dynasty (is when you consider a cap era). @ChiTownPhilly could weigh in to see If I'm off base in that assertion. Just want to see if there is any viable argument for the other 2.

Interesting to have a go at answering this question- and do so in such a way that will help bring the match-up into focus.

I'm all right with the contention that, for the Cup runs, Duncan Keith was the most valuable BlackHawk skater. Now, it's an open issue as to whether he's a superior player than Patrick Kane- simply because Keith's decline is happening/has happened before Kane's.

From a fan-standpoint, much talk is made about whether a player might take a "home-town-discount." Duncan Keith actually carried a home-town discount type of contract. Suppose that's not seminally relevant to an ATD discussion... but maybe it does speak to a certain esprit de corps.

One of Keith's defining characteristics is that (like Eric Lindros) is that if one tries to bash him physically, it seems to fill with him up with an added resolve to compete. This doesn't manifest itself in a "counter-assault" mode like Lindros- but more like a "wake-up-the-beast" extra gear.

I have Duncan Keith as an average Alpha Defenseman in a 40-team draft. However, please keep in mind that I have the most bizarre outlier rankings for Suchý and Pospíšil-- so if one discounts them- and accounts for The Playoffs, one could make a case for Keith as a slightly-above-average Alpha Defenseman. On my list, he's probably moved ahead of Gadsby, and is approaching the tier where I place Horton/Stevens.

In fairness, I should say something about Portland's Alpha Defenseman, Coffey. I have Coffey on the Park-Seibert tier... and (if pressed) I'd put him just outside the top-dozen.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Interesting to have a go at answering this question- and do so in such a way that will help bring the match-up into focus.

I'm all right with the contention that, for the Cup runs, Duncan Keith was the most valuable BlackHawk skater. Now, it's an open issue as to whether he's a superior player than Patrick Kane- simply because Keith's decline is happening/has happened before Kane's.

From a fan-standpoint, much talk is made about whether a player might take a "home-town-discount." Duncan Keith actually carried a home-town discount type of contract. Suppose that's not seminally relevant to an ATD discussion... but maybe it does speak to a certain esprit de corps.

One of Keith's defining characteristics is that (like Eric Lindros) is that if one tries to bash him physically, it seems to fill with him up with an added resolve to compete. This doesn't manifest itself in a "counter-assault" mode like Lindros- but more like a "wake-up-the-beast" extra gear.

I have Duncan Keith as an average Alpha Defenseman in a 40-team draft. However, please keep in mind that I have the most bizarre outlier rankings for Suchý and Pospíšil-- so if one discounts them- and accounts for The Playoffs, one could make a case for Keith as a slightly-above-average Alpha Defenseman. On my list, he's probably moved ahead of Gadsby, and is approaching the tier where I place Horton/Stevens.

In fairness, I should say something about Portland's Alpha Defenseman, Coffey. I have Coffey on the Park-Seibert tier... and (if pressed) I'd put him just outside the top-dozen.

Appreciate the insight sir. I know you're an educated Hawks fan so figured I'd get the overview from someone who's likely watched Keith more consistently than anyone around here outside of maybe HT/Voight.

Honestly, that's a very nuanced description of what I saw from Keith in those peak years, especially during the postseason. Now, keep in mind, I didn't see every game, but that was about the height of the moronic and never ending slag of Disco Dan Bylsma so I was watching more hockey than normal outside the local markets (PA/NY/DC). I especially connected w/ the resolve to compete comment. In the regular season I often saw Keith as a guy who would compete hard most nights, but knew when to gear down a little bit (Gretzky talked about it, Crosby does this at times, as do all the sly vets really), especially those years when Chicago knew it was going to be in position to go deep. He just seemed such an effortless skater, as if the toll of of being out there for long stretches didn't seem to wear on him as it does many others. The postseason, he simply became a different kind of animal.

Also, it's important to note Keith is also 5 years older than Kane, so naturally his decline in play was going to happen sooner. Agree 100% he's a average to slightly above average Dman this year in an overall sense but I do have him a touch higher once the postseason tourney rolls around.

As for Dmen I'd put Keith over from the top 100 project based on my initial list+subsequent material that was hashed out there over the months:

• Gadsby (Fair or not, he simply doesn't have much of a postseason record)

• Salming (see Gadsby)

• Clapper (peak mirrors Keith but Keith has better longevity and superior postseason record/impact as a Dman IMO)

 

[ResilientBeast]

Don't have too much time unfortunately was happy to have a great back and forth on friday @ImporterExporter and best of luck regardless of how it goes

Portland has clear advantages
1) Coaching the Patricks vs Pete Green
2) Goaltending Sawchuk vs Vezina
3) Defense, your 2D Coulter is superior (but not by much) to Flaman but Portland's 1, 3 & 4 D are superior to far superior to their counterparts on Pittsburgh

 

[ImporterExporter]

Don't have too much time unfortunately was happy to have a great back and forth on friday @ImporterExporter and best of luck regardless of how it goes

Portland has clear advantages
1) Coaching the Patricks vs Pete Green
2) Goaltending Sawchuk vs Vezina
3) Defense, your 2D Coulter is superior (but not by much) to Flaman but Portland's 1, 3 & 4 D are superior to far superior to their counterparts on Pittsburgh

Absolutely bud. It's always a pleasure and I'm glad you snuck some time in for the quality back and forth. Good luck sir!

 

[ImporterExporter]

@ResilientBeast

Thanks sir for the great series. Glad you were able to get some time in for debate. Always appreciate the discussion!