Louis Magnus Division Finals - Pittsburgh AC (1) vs Portland Rosebuds (2)

[ResilientBeast]

Top pairing: Wash

• Keith/Coulter vs Coffey/Flamen

I don't have much of a gap at all between Keith and Coffey all time personally. I made as much clear in the HoH Top 100 project so don't want people say I'm just over inflating Keith because I drafted him. Pretty sure everyone here or at least most know I've been vocal in my eval of Coffey.

View attachment 347003

With that being said, for the sake of integrity Coffey has a nod here. Still don't think it's much, but I'll say it's more than 3 spots as I have above. Beyond that, there are some critical points to be made about Coffey:

• He played in in the most wide open era of all time for 1 dynasty in Edmonton, which featured Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Anderson, etc, etc.

• He then went and played a few years with Mario, a young Jagr, Recchi, on a team that was good enough to win back to back Cups. Pitt won the 2nd one a few months after Coffey was traded by Bowman, btw w/Larry Murphy anchoring the D.

• He then went to LA and played with Gretzky again for a brief stint

• He then went to Detroit and played on another dynasty in Detroit with Steve Yzerman and company.

Now who are the C's on Portland?

Hooley Smith
Mickey MacKay
Bill Thoms
Mel Bridgman

It'd say that is a very, very far cry from Gretzky, Mario and Yzerman. Like other side of the universe.

I don't know if I've ever seen a player who benefited from playing around so many superstars over such a great length of time. Loaded offensive rosters, top to bottom many times. Wide open leagues with ride open play style (certainly all the way through the mid 90's when he got to Detroit). Coffey simply doesn't have the F support to be anywhere near as effective as his VsX would indicate. I'll argue that until the end of days. Nothing personal but I hope people can see there is simply no correlation between the Rosebuds and the overwhelming talent Coffey enjoyed playing with in real life.

Fit with Patrick? Sure. Won't argue that. Patrick liked rushing Dman so in that sense, the fit is perfectly fine.

But the drop off in terms of talent around him, in an offensive light, is staggering. Nels Stewart is your best offensive player, out of his normal position and Blake Wheeler. By VsX. Obviously MacKay and Smith are better offensive players but neither are worth Bowie and I have Bowie @ Cowley's level and am fine if people want to argue him slightly lower.

Coffey is elite offensively on the surface, but the simple reality is he never played with this little talent offensively. We simply can't say his output would be the same trying to carry the Rosebuds. There isn't anyone there remotely close to Gretzky or Mario and nobody can even claim to be on Yzerman's level offensively, though Stewart is close.

Please don't try and demean Paul Coffey for playing with greatness then brush aside my criticisms of Beliveau and Olmstead's team accomplishments as though they did not benefit from tremendous team support.

So, rather than emulate what Coffey had in real life a borderline impossibility in a 40 team draft. My team is built around his skillset as a skilled puck carrier and offensive playmaker providing him the support and the freedom to take risk and help generate the offence. This type of model was employed by my assistant coach in Vancouver and your own coach.

You can value Coffey however you like, but I flat out disagree that he is that close to Keith. Keith is all around better, that I can't disagree but Coffey was drafted with the purpose of being the offensive fulcrum on the squad. Coffey is in my top 15 all time while Keith is in my top 30. The difference between an above average and a below average #1D at 40 teams.

Coulter is superior to Flaman but both are around average at 40 teams as a 2D.

So depending on your personal views on Coffey this is at worst a wash to an advantage for Portland.

Second pairings - I like to occasionally look at tier lists created by esteemed members to help calibrate my thoughts about players (ATD 2017 Draft Thread IV) @Sturminator made one back in 2017.

Art Duncan top ~96
Gary Bergman top top ~123

Fred Lake and Hamby Shore do not make his list and look awfully out of place on an ATD second pairing. The second pairing matchup is probably the biggest mismatch in this series and is a huge advantage for Portland.

Third pairings,

Girardi has a better norris/ast record?

Seriously?

He has one 6th place finish in Norris voting an 8th and 19th in AST voting

Seabrook has 4 seasons of actually receiving votes compared to Girardi's 2. Seabrook was apart of the closest thing we've had to a dynasty in modern times as an integral piece as a non-flashy defensive defenseman. They are probably a wash at best.

Ivanov clearly the best of the group?

How is his record anymore impressive than

Loughlin's
1924 PCHA 1st Team All-Star
1921, 1922, 1923 PCHA 2nd Team All-Star

All his AST recognition came in mid 60's soviet hockey, you can't just give his all star team results without the years for Soviet hockey.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Special Teams: Big Advantage Pittsburgh

• Power Play

I like both 1st units. Portland clearly has superior point men. Pittsburgh has superior F's. I think these units wash out.

As good as Stewart is as a net front presence, Beliveau is better. Beliveau led the league in PP goals in back to back years with Olmstead on the wing a fair amount. JB finished top 10 in PP goals 13 times. 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3 4, in the hyper competitive O6 era, is elite. Olmstead is an elite cornerman, great passer, and somebody who routinely fed Beliveau for goals over 4 seasons.

As I said Bowie is a Cowley level offensive player, except much more goal scoring slanted vs play making. Reading on him a good bit over the past month he scored so many goals from in close and medium areas, fast shots, side shots, he was an absolute machine at putting the puck in the net, often dominating the league that featured HOF'er at F or D. While Beliveau can dominate the net mouth and slot like few others, Bowie provides elite goal scoring from the dots, sharp angles and he can float into the slot when Beliveau is harassing the goalie. Tommy Smith and Mic MacKay are good 1st PP options but Bowie is on another level IMO.

Pittsburgh pulls ahead on the 2nd unit

Ivanov/Keith is simply better than Loughlin/Pavelski. Ivanov was noted to have a powerful shot, pinpoint passing accuracy and was a great skater to boot. Keith, once he got opportunities on the PP showed a capable QB. He's not going to win any shot speed contests or likely even score a PP goal but as a QB who can walk the line as a great skater himself with high end vision and passing? Yeah, I'll take that out of a top 20 Dman of all time.

Pittsburgh's F's are better, though by a smaller margin that the D. Balderis is pretty easily the best/most talented offensive player on either 2nd unit. Smokey Harris was one of the biggest players in the league, his elite physicality noted on many occasion, Harris even quoted himself as saying he lived for the fray/rough stuff. I like him in front of the net. Even though he's not much of a goal scorer he's capable and his role will be to keep the D occupied to him in front of the net. Westwick will take over Wilson's spot on the 2nd unit and that's largely based on the fact Westwick was absolutely a better offensive player than Wilson. He outscored Alf Smith twice and Bruce Stuart once and his extensive bio shows he was a very strong passes for that time period. Very unselfish with the puck.

Drai and Wheeler are interesting cases because they are obviously stronger PP players today but their time spent in that category is very short.

Wheeler's PP assist numbers before 17-18 don't really register. And yes, I know he played less on the PP in years prior.

Drai and McDavid were 8th in PPP in 16-17, were non existent in 17-18, and then as offensively dominant as Drai was in 18-19 he only finished 18th in PPP. Then obviously leading the league this year. So you have 1 elite season, one good season and nothing else to note.

• Penalty Kill

Pittsburgh pulls even further ahead here.

Nobody in the league can compete with Jarvis-Westfall - Gainey-Russell at F.

You can see the ridiculous impact Westfall had on the PK, playing 60% of his teams short handed situations, and those teams were 16% better than league average. He was also a very good point getter on the kill. For my money, when you factor in the amount of time he spent on the PK,the level of excellency he showed over a long, long time, and the amount of offense produced, one can easily argue Westfall as the best the PK winger of all time and certainly in the running for best overall.

Jarvis is elite. You can see the domination just below Westfall. Then add in he's arguably the best faceoff man of all time and I like Pittsburgh's chances here as Hooley Smith is certainly very good defensively but he's not on the level of Westfall or Jarvis and Thoms is miles behind.

• Gainey/Russell/Harris vs MacKay/Bridgman

I like MacKay a lot but he's not in the same class, call it a tier below Gainey, and Russell/Harris are both well ahead of Bridgman IMO.

• Lake/Coulter vs Bergman/Flaman

I think Lake is better than Bergman reading their respective bios. Lake was compared to Tommy Phillips as a F where he was an AS, and then backstopped a dominant run in Ottawa routinely being cited for his stonewall defense, very heavy body checking and ability to carry the puck at a good rate, which was unusual for for someone with the defensive reputation he had. Bergman played 47% of his team's kills and while they were below average, he played on crappy rosters so no need to deduct anything for that. I'd say his usage is solid, but not spectacular. I certainly think Bergman is a good PK'er on a 2nd unit, but best case for GB is he's even with Lake and that's being generous IMO.

Coulter is simply a touch about Flaman. I already posted some juicy bits about Coulter. Between his elite positioning and very high end physicality and overall defensive reputation he's the best blue liner on the PK in this series.

• Keith/Orpik/Girardi vs Loughlin/Seabrook

Not even close. Favors Pittsburgh by a lot.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Special Teams: Big Advantage Pittsburgh
As I said Bowie is a Cowley level offensive player, except much more goal scoring slanted vs play making. Reading on him a good bit over the past month he scored so many goals from in close and medium areas, fast shots, side shots, he was an absolute machine at putting the puck in the net, often dominating the league that featured HOF'er at F or D.

Wasn't it non-HHOFer Herb Jordan who was Bowie's biggest competition for scoring goals in the CAHL and ECAHA most of those years? Frank McGee never played in the same league as Bowie. Tommy Phillips did just once.

I mean, Bowie did as well as you could ever ask a man in dominating those pre-professional leagues, but I think you're overrating just how competitive they were.

FWIW, Jordan wasn't drafted this year, but probably should have been someone's spare.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Please don't try and demean Paul Coffey for playing with greatness then brush aside my criticisms of Beliveau and Olmstead's team accomplishments as though they did not benefit from tremendous team support.

There is a much bigger difference going from Gretzky (top 3 player of all time), Lemieux (top 4 player of all time), Messier (top 20 player of all time), Yzerman (top 40 player of all time)......i can keep going.

Beliveau/Olmstead have a linemate who can do everything Cournoyer could and that was somebody Beliveau played/won with for years. Right there, you're argument loses some steam.

Bowie provides more offense a C behind Beliveau than anything Beliveau had in real life IMO so the scoring load doesn't squarely fall on his shoulders. I have a very good puck carrier/passer in Keith who is also well above average defensively. Coulter was an above average puck mover as well as being top shelf defensively. My 2nd pairing was the most dominant in the ECHA/NHA over a span of 4 years that saw 2 Cups won outright.

Edit out the not brushing aside anything comment as there are obvious drop offs from Pittsburgh to the 50's/60's Habs.

Yes, there is no Doug Harvey. No Henri Richard. Obviously that is a big drop off. But I like Balderis on the top line a lot and certainly don't think he's any worse than Cournoyer, and I have a bottom 6 that is very strong for a 40 team draft with multiple HOF'ers, elite checking that would make any of Toe Blake's teams blush, strong puck movers on every pairing. Vezina in net which again, saves me from having some monumental drop from Plante and Vezina is far better than Gump Worsely (60's netminder for Montrael).

Gary Bergman is the most overrated player in this series. A player with a handful of distant AS finishes in a 6-18 team league does little in an ATD setting. He isn't a top shelf PK'er. I'll let the voters read what I have on Shore and Lake and then let them decide. Bergman's resume literally has nothing on it that makes him stand out in any way, other than logging bigger minutes, not surprising given he played on crap teams.

So sick of seeing these better than average role player with no accolades to their name being put on the same pedestal as a player like Shore who was being said to be playing like the most valuable player in the league in 1917, at age 30. Hardly a small bullet point.

And I clearly stated Duncan was the best Dman among 2nd liners and gave the unit a moderate advantage. Nothing remotely outrageous about that.

2nd pairing biggest mismatch?

I think the voters can look at the F groups and see the grand canyon in the series is right there.

I can check your scoring lines, which aren't that good to begin with, with Gainey-Jarvis-Westfall and either Harris-Bowie-Russell or Kunitz-Westwick-Wilson.

Pittsburgh has far better chemistry, better offense in the top 6 easily. better defensive F's on the wings and at C in the bottom 6. Far better big game players. Better special teams.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Wasn't it non-HHOFer Herb Jordan who was Bowie's biggest competition for scoring goals in the CAHL and ECAHA most of those years? Frank McGee never played in the same league as Bowie. Tommy Phillips did just once.

I mean, Bowie did as well as you could ever ask a man in dominating those pre-professional leagues, but I think you're overrating just how competitive they were.

FWIW, Jordan wasn't drafted this year, but probably should have been someone's spare.

I've made my position known.

McGee was on the scene by 1903. Ernie Russell showed up in 1905. Jordan was there as you mentioned. Also don't forget the defensemen that were in the league at the time. None of which were on his team. Moose Johnson, Harvey Pulford. Art Ross to name a few. The very early portion of Bowie's career was much less refined but you started seeing more prominent talent arriving in 1903 and then really taking off in 1905. At least that's what I see looking a the league rosters. And Bowie, despite being older than most of these guys was still leading or in the running for best scorer.....on a team that had zero help beyond Blair Russell.

I don't think ranking Bowie where I am, is outrageous or anything that hasn't been suggested numerous times before. I've taken off considerable % of his offensive value precisely because he played in the first decade of the 1900's. I'm not saying he should be drafted in the top 100. I certainly think he dropped too far this year.

At some point you need to draw the line in devaluing early era guys otherwise there is no point in even drafting them. Again, I'm not suggesting anything on Bowie that hasn't been done before. I'll let folks make up their own minds.

 

[ImporterExporter]

This is 1908:

Bowie's last full year in top level hockey:

Then remember the Vics were vastly outmatch compared to Ottawa/Wanderers.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I've made my position known.

McGee was on the scene by 1903. Ernie Russell showed up in 1905. Jordan was there as you mentioned. Also don't forget the defensemen that were in the league at the time. None of which were on his team. Moose Johnson, Harvey Pulford. Art Ross to name a few. The very early portion of Bowie's career was much less refined but you started seeing more prominent talent arriving in 1903 and then really taking off in 1905. At least that's what I see looking a the league rosters. And Bowie, despite being older than most of these guys was still leading or in the running for best scorer.....on a team that had zero help beyond Blair Russell.

I don't think ranking Bowie where I am, is outrageous or anything that hasn't been suggested numerous times before. I've taken off considerable % of his offensive value precisely because he played in the first decade of the 1900's. I'm not saying he should be drafted in the top 100. I certainly think he dropped too far this year.

At some point you need to draw the line in devaluing early era guys otherwise there is no point in even drafting them. Again, I'm not suggesting anything on Bowie that hasn't been done before. I'll let folks make up their own minds.

Looking at it more closely, McGee really only competed against Bowie in 1903 and 1906 though. McGee missed half the season in 1904, played in a different league entirely in 1905. I had thought McGee spent more time playing in a different league than he did.

I don't think it's totally crazy thinking of Bowie as highly as you do... but it's getting close. We know that there was a major explosion of talent between Bowie's generation of mostly amateurs, and Cyclone Taylor's more professional generation - you can tell simply by looking at where all the best players were born - in Bowie's time, they all came from just a few cities in eastern Canada. So while it's possible Bowie was almost as good as Cyclone Taylor (which is what you are saying when you are assigning him a "score" similar to Bill Cowley), I think that's on the high end of what is a fairly large range as to how good he could have been.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This is 1908:

Bowie's last full year in top level hockey:

Then remember the Vics were vastly outmatch compared to Ottawa/Wanderers.

View attachment 347148

Yes, that was by far the best competition Bowie faced. It was the only season Phillips played in the same league, btw.

For example, 1905 doesn't look nearly so good:

Name	Club	GP	G
Bowie, Russell	Victorias	8	27
Russel, Blair	Victorias	8	19
Power, Joe	Quebec	9	15
Foulis, C.	Westmount	7	13
Russell, Ernie	Montreal	8	11
Ross, Art	Westmount	8	10
Hogan, Eddie	Quebec	9	10
Church, Tom	Westmount	9	9
Howard, Cavey	Victorias	8	9
Jordan, Herb	Quebec	8	9

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[ResilientBeast]

If Bowie is Cowley level offensively how highly must you also rate Tommy Smith lol

 

[ImporterExporter]

Looking at it more closely, McGee really only competed against Bowie in 1903 and 1906 though. McGee missed half the season in 1904, played in a different league entirely in 1905. I had thought McGee spent more time playing in a different league than he did.

I don't think it's totally crazy thinking of Bowie as highly as you do... but it's getting close. We know that there was a major explosion of talent between Bowie's generation of mostly amateurs, and Cyclone Taylor's more professional generation - you can tell simply by looking at where all the best players were born - in Bowie's time, they all came from just a few cities in eastern Canada. So while it's possible Bowie was almost as good as Cyclone Taylor (which is what you are saying when you are assigning him a "score" similar to Bill Cowley), I think that's on the high end of what is a fairly large range as to how good he could have been.

Again, I'm more than fine with people saying Bowie is more in Savard-Oates class of offensive player (trying to not put a number value given the trouble that leads too as RB mentioned before). But for reference sake that would be like 85-90. I don't think that is unreasonable at all. Am I on the higher end? Sure, I'm not going to suggest otherwise but I'm saying that in large part because Bowie has his real life partner in Russell and a big, big upgrade at LW in Harris.

As for comparing to Taylor offensively. I think Taylor is obviously a better overall player and offensive talent in large part because he did play most of his career in the 1910-20 range. Like I said before, if you back up Bowie's career 5-10 years he's probably drafted twice as high as he is already. 10 years and he's on Taylor's level overall.

Hence the difference in draft positions. I'd argue Taylor as a more impactful offensive player than Cowley as well, though admittedly I'm lower on Cowley than most given his peak came in a very weak era to include war years which I devalue more than most I'm sure.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Let's compare our top lines more fairly

The Glue

Olmstead v Hooley

VsX is pretty similar Hooley is unquestionably considered the far superior player. It's literally not even close

The Scoring Winger Guy

Balderis v Wheeler

No contest Balderis is better. Would most likely have a high VsX (Wheeler's is 80.7)

The centerpiece

Beliveau v Stewart

105.7 VsX v 90.3

Beliveau is unquestionably considered the far superior player

So yes you have an advantage on the top lines, because Balderis and Beliveau are better than their counterparts in function.

Second lines

The scoring centerpiece

Bowie vs Tommy Smith

The overrating or Russell Bowie offensively. I don't want to muddy the water with unofficial stats like reconstructed assists or Vs1/Vs2. From my own bio in 2017

Bowie
Goals - 1st(1901), 1st(1903), 1st(1904), 1st(1905), 1st(1908), 1st(1909*), 2nd(1900), 2nd(1902), 2nd(1906), 2nd(1907), 3rd(1899)

Tommy Smith (underlined are from the NHA)
Goals - 1st (1906), 1st (1907), 1st (1908), 1st (1911), 1st (1912), 1st (1914), 1st (1915), 2nd (1913)

Tommy Smith has just as many goal scoring titles from a variety of leagues as well as two goal scoring titles from the NHA a far superior league to anything that Bowie played in. With Dreakmur fudges Tommy Smith would've outscored "prime" PCHA Cyclone Taylor at the start of his time in Vancouver.

If you're going to inflate Bowie's offensive credential you cannot ignore Tommy Smith's offensive dominance.

The PCHAers

Smokey Harris v Mickey Mackay

Literally no one at the time considered Harris comparable to MacKay. Mackay was often thought as the second best player in the league next to Taylor. Foyston provided a strong challenge but the historical record makes it clear. MacKay was better than Harris without question.

The Glue

Blair Russell v Bertuzzi

**** I have no idea to compare these two. They were primarily drafted as compliments to better player. Russell because of his history covering for Bowie and Bertuzzi to beat the snot out of anyone taking liberties with MacKay.

So on the second line we have at worst for Portland a tie, but more likely an edge.

 

[ImporterExporter]

If Bowie is Cowley level offensively how highly must you also rate Tommy Smith lol

A tier below Bowie.

Smith didn't get into the HOF until 1973.

Bowie got in the 2nd year it existed in 1947 with some pretty stellar names.

BTW, Harry Westwick got inducted in 1962:

 

[ResilientBeast]

A tier below Bowie.

Smith didn't get into the HOF until 1973.

Bowie got in the 2nd year it existed in 1947 with some pretty stellar names.

View attachment 347162


BTW, Harry Westwick got inducted in 1962:

View attachment 347163

A tier below Bowie.

Smith didn't get into the HOF until 1973.

Bowie got in the 2nd year it existed in 1947 with some pretty stellar names.

View attachment 347162


BTW, Harry Westwick got inducted in 1962:

View attachment 347163

Ian Fyffe's Hockey Historysis

Like his brother Harry, Tommy Smith was a hockey mercenary. He had played exactly one season of high-level senior hockey in his hometown of Ottawa before going to Pittsburgh to play for pay. He played for seven different clubs in the next seven seasons, before finally settling down (mostly) in Quebec for a few years, where he had his greatest success in terms of the Stanley Cup.

Although Joe Malone is today the best-known player on the great Bulldog teams of the 1910s, there seems little doubt to me that Smith was actually their best player. As it happens, Malone was four years' Smith's junior, and as such was able to hang around long enough to produce in the NHL, rather than the NHA, and as such is known to even some less-than-hardcore fans as the man who scored 2.2 goals per game in the current league's inaugural season. No disrespect intended to Malone, of course, who was a great player in his own right. But Smith doesn't get the respect today that he deserves.

Tommy Smith scored buckets of goals, wherever he went. have a look at his Point Allocation results. He scored in Ottawa, he scored in Pittsburgh, he scored in Brantford, he scored in Galt, he scored in Moncton, he scored in Toronto, and he especially scored in Quebec. He led three separate leagues in goals (the Federal Amateur Hockey League, the Ontario Professional Hockey League, and the National Hockey Association twice), missed leading the Maritime Professional Hockey Association by one goal in 1911/12, and would surely have also led the Western Pennsylvania league in 1908/09 had the team he was playing for not folded halfway through the schedule (his goals-per-game was over twice that of the man who actually led the league, and only his brother Harry was close on a per-game basis).

Smith was quite a durable player - he never missed a significant number of games due to injury; it took typhoid fever to knock him out for most of the 1909/10 season. He was also apparently excellent at taking faceoffs, something not often noted at the time, despite playing wing when he was teamed with Malone.

Better than a young Joe Malone?

I don't give a flying **** when someone was inducted into the Hall of Fame that's such a weak argument. He made it in before the veterans committee started making poor inductions.

If you're willing to stake your argument on the HHOF solid oof my friend. In spite of the results showing you Smith's dominance

Edit: Art Coulter wasn't inducted until 1973, Olmstead until 1985, Mackay in 1952

 

[ImporterExporter]

I don't have Ernie Russell. I know you had a brain fart, just clarifying.

It's Blair Russell, Bowie's long time running mate.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I don't have Ernie Russell. I know you had a brain fart, just clarifying.

It's Blair Russell, Bowie's long time running mate.

Between Ernie, Blair and Bowie the Russell's meld together in my brain. Edited

 

[ImporterExporter]

Weak argument in early early players getting inducted? Not tat all.

Bowie literally went in with Eddie Shore and Cyclone Taylor. Smith waited a decade and a half. Do you think that DOESN'T matter? Fine.

Tommy Smith was never though the best player in the world that i know of. Bowie was for years.

I'm not comparing MacKay to Harris. There's no point given one is a LW and one is C. Mixing and matching the positions is carrying the goal posts across the 20 yard line. Same as not deducting any value for Stewart playing LW, a spot he spent all of 1.5 years at.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Weak argument in early early players getting inducted? Not tat all.

Bowie literally went in with Eddie Shore and Cyclone Taylor. Smith waited a decade and a half. Do you think that DOESN'T matter? Fine.

Tommy Smith was never though the best player in the world that i know of. Bowie was for years.

I'm not comparing MacKay to Harris. There's no point given one is a LW and one is C. Mixing and matching the positions is carrying the goal posts across the 20 yard line. Same as not deducting any value for Stewart playing LW, a spot he spent all of 1.5 years at.

TDMMs Bio from 2015

Mentioned with Joe Malone, Newsy Lalonde and "other ace snipers" decades after he retired:

(article discusses the need to research NHA statistics, starting with Frank Nighbor)... along that route some startling figures would be unearthed or un-iced and they would have reference to Joe Malone, "Newsy" Lalonde, Tommy Smith and other ace snipers. These were probably the most prolific scorers ever developed and they did their tallying in an era when it was very dangerous business to come close grips with hard hitting defensemen.

Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Description of his star power and comparison to his older brothers from a preview of the inaugural season of the WPHL:

Tommy Smith, who will play at his old position, rover, is so well known that nothing can be said about him that the followers of hocked (sic) do not already know. He is the brother of Al Smith and Harry Smith, whose reputations are world-wide. Tommy is as good as either of his famous brothers. He is one of the most popular players who ever donned a pair of skates.

The Pittsburgh Press - Google News Archive Search

Shame his reputation has faded, had be been able to play in the NHL and produce similarly he might be remembered more fondly.

You're arguing fame, Bowie was the best player during a weak era of hockey with few other super notable stars of course he's remembered fondly. His production is not substantially better in my mind than Tommy Smith's.

Comparing players by position and not function is no more non-nonsensical especially since offensively Coffey and Duncan's influence will be paramount to our success. So I chose to look at the roles they appear to serve for your squad. You can crow about it being unfair but I feel it's relevant since we seemed to have divided up the roles between players quite neatly.

 

[ResilientBeast]

We've already looked at some of Bowie's season by season competition

1912-13

1913-14

1914-15 Season

And what about the players Tommy Smith needed to score against?

1912-13

1913-14

1914-15

The scoring tables are full of ATD players, the goaltending leaderboard is headlined by Benedict, Vezina, Holmes. Smith was against superior talent and still dominated

 

[ImporterExporter]

I'm aware.

I'd like to know why the HOF saw fit to wait forever to put him relative to Bowie. If Smith was so highly respected, relative to his numbers, why wait until 1973 to induct him?

Bias? Who knows. Not worth speculating.

Did the HOF just forget about him and then somebody just prior to 1973 said wait!? Not likely.

Smith wasn't even the best player on Quebec. Malone was.

This is why numbers don't tell the whole story.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'm aware.

I'd like to know why the HOF saw fit to wait forever to put him relative to Bowie. If Smith was so highly respected, relative to his numbers, why wait until 1973 to induct him?

Bias? Who knows. Not worth speculating.

Did the HOF just forget about him and then somebody just prior to 1973 said wait!? Not likely.

Smith wasn't even the best player on Quebec. Malone was.

This is why numbers don't tell the whole story.

Ian Fyfe's assessments if you read them and his analysis disagree with you. I've posted this already but I'll post it again.

Edit: Here is the actual link Hockey Historysis: Tommy Smith - All-Rounder

Ian Fyffe's Hockey Historysis

Like his brother Harry, Tommy Smith was a hockey mercenary. He had played exactly one season of high-level senior hockey in his hometown of Ottawa before going to Pittsburgh to play for pay. He played for seven different clubs in the next seven seasons, before finally settling down (mostly) in Quebec for a few years, where he had his greatest success in terms of the Stanley Cup.

Although Joe Malone is today the best-known player on the great Bulldog teams of the 1910s, there seems little doubt to me that Smith was actually their best player. As it happens, Malone was four years' Smith's junior, and as such was able to hang around long enough to produce in the NHL, rather than the NHA, and as such is known to even some less-than-hardcore fans as the man who scored 2.2 goals per game in the current league's inaugural season. No disrespect intended to Malone, of course, who was a great player in his own right. But Smith doesn't get the respect today that he deserves.

Tommy Smith scored buckets of goals, wherever he went. have a look at his Point Allocation results. He scored in Ottawa, he scored in Pittsburgh, he scored in Brantford, he scored in Galt, he scored in Moncton, he scored in Toronto, and he especially scored in Quebec. He led three separate leagues in goals (the Federal Amateur Hockey League, the Ontario Professional Hockey League, and the National Hockey Association twice), missed leading the Maritime Professional Hockey Association by one goal in 1911/12, and would surely have also led the Western Pennsylvania league in 1908/09 had the team he was playing for not folded halfway through the schedule (his goals-per-game was over twice that of the man who actually led the league, and only his brother Harry was close on a per-game basis).

Smith was quite a durable player - he never missed a significant number of games due to injury; it took typhoid fever to knock him out for most of the 1909/10 season. He was also apparently excellent at taking faceoffs, something not often noted at the time, despite playing wing when he was teamed with Malone.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Last time I'll say it before doing a final overview, but there is just no way to argue Coffey being as productive as he was in real life with the F's you have.

You cannot go from Gretzky/Lemieux/Yzerman to name 2 of the top 4 players of all time and somebody who's routinely ranked top 40, down to the C's you have and be convinced Coffey will be anything but overwhelmed at the burden he has to take on here. I just can't stress that enough. He's also going to get hammered by Pittsburgh elite skating and checking wingers and if he rolls into the offensive zone deep there are a slew of great skating defensemen a few of which are quite heavy on the body.

Obviously Olmstead and Beliveau don't have Harvey and company but they are a real life duo and that counts for something at least IMO and I managed to not kill them at RW. Managed to get them a premium 2nd line scoring C (Bowie) and a #1 D (Keith) who's average to above average here, along with a top 10 G of all time. A checking line that matches or exceeds, defensively, anything Blake was sending out in the 50/60's. A 4th line that features a HOF'er and about as perfect a 4th liner as you could draw up in Westwick.

Coffey didn't have to deal with the kind of weak scoring from C's that Portland has. As far as I know he never played for a team that kept the overwhelming majority of defensive responsibility down the middle.

As I said, I think Patrick/Coffey is a great fit. But I cannot agree that he will be near as effective with the overall lack of scoring down the middle relative to the insane talent he enjoyed his entire career thre.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Smith and Bowie were from different generations, but their careers look to have overlapped by a few years. Any way to compare them in the years when they were both active?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Smith and Bowie were from different generations, but their careers look to have overlapped by a few years. Any way to compare them in the years when they were both active?

Because of Bowie' strict oath to amateurism they only played in the same league once.

ECAHA 1905-06

Bowie 30 goals in 9 games - Bowie would be ~25
Smith 6 goals in 3 games - Smith would be ~19

Then Smith jumps around a variety of professional leagues until coming to the NHA

Edit: It's incredibly hard to find common ground between the two it would require a very thorough study of the players from the time.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Because of Bowie' strict oath to amateurism they only played in the same league once.

ECAHA 1905-06

Bowie 30 goals in 9 games - Bowie would be ~25
Smith 6 goals in 3 games - Smith would be ~19

Then Smith jumps around a variety of professional leagues until coming to the NHA

Edit: It's incredibly hard to find common ground between the two it would require a very thorough study of the players from the time.

Right.. I figured it would be tough. I wonder if there are any third party players they both played against in similar situations... Probably not

 

[ImporterExporter]

@ResilientBeast

I'm willing to move the needle on Smith up to Bowie as far as offensive value goes. I still think one overview from Ian Fyfe (that doesn't say anything about Smith being best in the world btw) can overrule or bridge the gap between what everyone already knows about Bowie and the many things I've read (eventually will compile all of it) over the past month. The number of mythical AS teams Bowie made long after he retired or the fact the HOF put him in with some of the greatest names in history to that point in history (1947) in its 2nd ever HOF class. Say what you want, but Smith not getting in for 16 years after that tells me he wasn't nearly highly regarded as Bowie.

But in the sake of trying to be fair, I do agree his scoring totals are more impressive given he was putting up those numbers 4, 5, 6 years after Bowie retired.