Lotto or Playoffs?

[hockeyball]

We should've kept Boyle if we were tanking. The media still thinks he's good so it wouldn't have gotten a negative reaction

Look, i wanted rid of him as bad as anyone, Stuart and Havlat too, but you guys are exagerating when you say it's addition by subtraction. With Stuart maaaaybe, but the other two, no and here is why:

Boyle still produced, he wasn't who he used to be, but he was our second best offensive defensemen and he allowed Burns to stay at forward. He wasn't worth his paycheck, but losing him and not replacing him dose NOT make us better, it makes us worse.

Havlat while oft injured, and possibly a locker room problem, was still an effective player when on the ice. More effective than most of our bottom-6 players for sure. Getting his cap space back is great, if we used it for someone to replace him, which we didn't. So again, glad we got rid of him, but it still makes us a worse team.

Stuart sucked, and I would rather give Mueller or Albetshauser the ice time, but that doesn't make them better than him, and that doesn't make us a better team. At best it's likely lateral.

 

[HydroF]

You don't need to tank to get a pick in the 10-15 range. The Sharks can trade off something with their first to move up on draft day. If Marleau or Thornton can be moved at any time during the season, can probably repackage the return and turn it into a second pick in that range. If this draft turns out to be as good as its being hyped up to be, its even more reason not to tank as you will hopefully be able to grab a future elite much further from the top.

The middle ground is the ideal situation. Keep the younger guys, the rising players like Couture, Vlasic, Pavelski, and try to move off the older and build from their return.

I'm not comfortable placing all my eggs in a basket built out of hopes and dreams. The sharks have a lot of high quality players with a lot of years left in them, they shouldn't be getting rid of that.

 

[Sleepy]

If you aren't drafting 30th, you ought to be trying to draft 1st overall. That's the philosophy every GM should have.

The quicker we give it all up and tank now, the quicker a cup will come in the future.

That is the philosophy of unemployed GM's.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

You don't need to tank to get a pick in the 10-15 range. The Sharks can trade off something with their first to move up on draft day. If Marleau or Thornton can be moved at any time during the season, can probably repackage the return and turn it into a second pick in that range. If this draft turns out to be as good as its being hyped up to be, its even more reason not to tank as you will hopefully be able to grab a future elite much further from the top.

The middle ground is the ideal situation. Keep the younger guys, the rising players like Couture, Vlasic, Pavelski, and try to move off the older and build from their return.

I'm not comfortable placing all my eggs in a basket built out of hopes and dreams. The sharks have a lot of high quality players with a lot of years left in them, they shouldn't be getting rid of that.

In the 2015 draft, it's going to take a lot to move up. Even from 20, it will cost probably the equivalent of another pick in the 21-30 level to move up into the 10-15 range. As for the rebuild, people are exaggerating what it actually entails. It's not some scorched-earth thing because in a rebuild they will still have Hertl, Couture, Nieto, Wingels, Vlasic, Braun, Demers, Burns (probably), Stalock, and other already coming up like Mueller, Tierney, and Goldobin. They're not doomed to cellar-dwelling for years on end like many like to think when they doom and gloom the idea.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

That is the philosophy of unemployed GM's.

Like Tim Murray, whose Sabres are about to become an elite cup worthy team once they draft one of MacKinnon or Eichel, along with another first (or is it 2 more) in next year's draft? Seems legit.

THE SHARKS WONT DRAFT A FRANCHISE PLAYER IF THEY DONT TANK OR FIRE TIM BURKE. THE ONLY FRANCHISE PLAYER TIM BURKE HAVE EVER DRAFTED IS MARLEAU WHO THEY DRAFTED 2ND OVERALL AND HE IS BORDERLINE. THEY HAVE HAD 3 SEPARATE TOP 10 PICKS SINCE 2003 AND GOTTEN NO FRANCHISE PLAYERS. THEY HAVE HAD PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITIES TO DRAFT ONE.

Let's look at all the franchise players in the NHL right now. I have added a good chunk of borderline guys for the sake of discussion, to add more examples.

Sidney Crosby
Evgeni Malkin
Steven Stamkos
Alexander Ovechkin
Shea Weber
Claude Giroux
Ryan Getzlaf
John Tavares
PK Subban
Erik Karlsson
Drew Doughty
Anze Kopitar
Ryan Suter
Jonathan Toews
Patrice Bergeron
Duncan Keith
Ryan McDonagh
Joe Thornton
Pavel Datsyuk

Now, I'm going to erase the players which we didn't have a chance to draft.

Shea Weber
Claude Giroux
Ryan Getzlaf
PK Subban
Anze Kopitar
Ryan Suter
Patrice Bergeron
Duncan Keith
Ryan McDonagh

We selected Matt Carle before Shea Weber. It is rumored that the org was looking at Weber but they chose Carle because his team won the Memorial Cup instead of Weber's. Strong priorities.
We selected Ty Wishart over Claude Giroux because Wishart had "size" and "grit" and hit a lot while Giroux was undersized.
We selected Steve Bernier over Ryan Getzlaf (or Zach Parise, for that matter, because Bernier had "size" and "grit")
We selected Nick Petrecki over PK Subban because Petrecki was a hard hitter and played with grit.
We selected Devin Setoguchi over Anze Kopitar because our head of scouting is self-admittedly xenophobic and wanted a hard hitting Canadian over an offensively talented European.
We selected Milan Michalek over Ryan Suter but Michalek actually wasn't an awful pick.
We selected Steve Bernier over Patrice Bergeron, again Bernier isn't an awful type of player to get but still he isn't great.
We picked Dan Spang over Duncan Keith because Spang was a hard hitting stay-at-home defenseman and Keith was soft.
We selected Logan Couture over Ryan McDonagh because Couture was a good 2-way player who works hard. Yes Couture turned out good, but McDonagh is considerably better.

So yeah. Burke is a stupid scout who values team achievements over player abilities and 2-way play and hitting and character over actual talent. We won't be drafting any franchise players with him at the helm unless we're drafting in the top-5. Please stop trying to be optimistic by trying to pretend that we're going to get one and saying our future will be fine. We don't have any prospects who look to be becoming franchise players, we don't have any young franchise players, teams don't trade franchise players, this specific team doesn't sign franchise players in UFA (Like Chara, or Niedermayer, for example, both of which Wilson made a serious run at and actually outbid Boston/Anaheim for, respectively), and teams don't win without franchise players.

We're completely ****ed if we don't tank. And we aren't tanking. So we're completely ****ed.

 

[Led Zappa]

Like Tim Murray, whose Sabres are about to become an elite cup worthy team once they draft one of MacKinnon or Eichel, along with another first (or is it 2 more) in next year's draft? Seems legit.

THE SHARKS WONT DRAFT A FRANCHISE PLAYER IF THEY DONT TANK OR FIRE TIM BURKE. THE ONLY FRANCHISE PLAYER TIM BURKE HAVE EVER DRAFTED IS MARLEAU WHO THEY DRAFTED 2ND OVERALL AND HE IS BORDERLINE. THEY HAVE HAD 3 SEPARATE TOP 10 PICKS SINCE 2003 AND GOTTEN NO FRANCHISE PLAYERS. THEY HAVE HAD PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITIES TO DRAFT ONE.

Let's look at all the franchise players in the NHL right now. I have added a good chunk of borderline guys for the sake of discussion, to add more examples.

Sidney Crosby
Evgeni Malkin
Steven Stamkos
Alexander Ovechkin
Shea Weber
Claude Giroux
Ryan Getzlaf
John Tavares
PK Subban
Erik Karlsson
Drew Doughty
Anze Kopitar
Ryan Suter
Jonathan Toews
Patrice Bergeron
Duncan Keith
Ryan McDonagh
Joe Thornton
Pavel Datsyuk

Now, I'm going to erase the players which we didn't have a chance to draft.

Shea Weber
Claude Giroux
Ryan Getzlaf
PK Subban
Anze Kopitar
Ryan Suter
Patrice Bergeron
Duncan Keith
Ryan McDonagh

We selected Matt Carle before Shea Weber. It is rumored that the org was looking at Weber but they chose Carle because his team won the Memorial Cup instead of Weber's. Strong priorities.
We selected Ty Wishart over Claude Giroux because Wishart had "size" and "grit" and hit a lot while Giroux was undersized.
We selected Steve Bernier over Ryan Getzlaf (or Zach Parise, for that matter, because Bernier had "size" and "grit")
We selected Nick Petrecki over PK Subban because Petrecki was a hard hitter and played with grit.
We selected Devin Setoguchi over Anze Kopitar because our head of scouting is self-admittedly xenophobic and wanted a hard hitting Canadian over an offensively talented European.
We selected Milan Michalek over Ryan Suter but Michalek actually wasn't an awful pick.
We selected Steve Bernier over Patrice Bergeron, again Bernier isn't an awful type of player to get but still he isn't great.
We picked Dan Spang over Duncan Keith because Spang was a hard hitting stay-at-home defenseman and Keith was soft.
We selected Logan Couture over Ryan McDonagh because Couture was a good 2-way player who works hard. Yes Couture turned out good, but McDonagh is considerably better.

So yeah. Burke is a stupid scout who values team achievements over player abilities and 2-way play and hitting and character over actual talent. We won't be drafting any franchise players with him at the helm unless we're drafting in the top-5. Please stop trying to be optimistic by trying to pretend that we're going to get one and saying our future will be fine. We don't have any prospects who look to be becoming franchise players, we don't have any young franchise players, teams don't trade franchise players, this specific team doesn't sign franchise players in UFA (Like Chara, or Niedermayer, for example, both of which Wilson made a serious run at and actually outbid Boston/Anaheim for, respectively), and teams don't win without franchise players.

We're completely ****ed if we don't tank. And we aren't tanking. So we're completely ****ed.

I see you picked up a pair of these

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

That's something which is certainly okay to do when looking at how a certain Scout/GM tandem clearly can't draft franchise players outside of the top-5 and won't start doing so if they have never done so before.

A GM and scout are criticized on how their moves work out. If Wilson trades Hertl for David Clarkson now and Hertl outperforms Clarkson, then can we say "oh well, not his fault, hindsight is 20/20"? No, we can't, because a GM's to be able to make foresight 20/20. Our scout/GM can't do that well enough to draft a single franchise player in 12 years (which, by the way, is pretty bad. Most GMs get at least one), so it would be dumb for us to expect one in the next 5 years if we don't tank.

 

[magic school bus]

Look, i wanted rid of him as bad as anyone, Stuart and Havlat too, but you guys are exagerating when you say it's addition by subtraction. With Stuart maaaaybe, but the other two, no and here is why:

Boyle still produced, he wasn't who he used to be, but he was our second best offensive defensemen and he allowed Burns to stay at forward. He wasn't worth his paycheck, but losing him and not replacing him dose NOT make us better, it makes us worse.

Havlat while oft injured, and possibly a locker room problem, was still an effective player when on the ice. More effective than most of our bottom-6 players for sure. Getting his cap space back is great, if we used it for someone to replace him, which we didn't. So again, glad we got rid of him, but it still makes us a worse team.

Stuart sucked, and I would rather give Mueller or Albetshauser the ice time, but that doesn't make them better than him, and that doesn't make us a better team. At best it's likely lateral.

IMO, he gave back more than than he took from the other team.

 

[hockeyball]

IMO, he gave back more than than he took from the other team.

If you mean Stuart, that's possible, but theres nothing to say Mueller or Albetshauser will be any better, they could realistically give back even more. Hopefully they don't, but it's pretty tough to argue it's an upgrade at this point. Smarter use of ice time, yes, but it doesn't likely make the team better immediately.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Like Tim Murray, whose Sabres are about to become an elite cup worthy team once they draft one of MacKinnon or Eichel, along with another first (or is it 2 more) in next year's draft? Seems legit.

THE SHARKS WONT DRAFT A FRANCHISE PLAYER IF THEY DONT TANK OR FIRE TIM BURKE. THE ONLY FRANCHISE PLAYER TIM BURKE HAVE EVER DRAFTED IS MARLEAU WHO THEY DRAFTED 2ND OVERALL AND HE IS BORDERLINE. THEY HAVE HAD 3 SEPARATE TOP 10 PICKS SINCE 2003 AND GOTTEN NO FRANCHISE PLAYERS. THEY HAVE HAD PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITIES TO DRAFT ONE.

Let's look at all the franchise players in the NHL right now. I have added a good chunk of borderline guys for the sake of discussion, to add more examples.

Sidney Crosby
Evgeni Malkin
Steven Stamkos
Alexander Ovechkin
Shea Weber
Claude Giroux
Ryan Getzlaf
John Tavares
PK Subban
Erik Karlsson
Drew Doughty
Anze Kopitar
Ryan Suter
Jonathan Toews
Patrice Bergeron
Duncan Keith
Ryan McDonagh
Joe Thornton
Pavel Datsyuk

Now, I'm going to erase the players which we didn't have a chance to draft.

Shea Weber
Claude Giroux
Ryan Getzlaf
PK Subban
Anze Kopitar
Ryan Suter
Patrice Bergeron
Duncan Keith
Ryan McDonagh

We selected Matt Carle before Shea Weber. It is rumored that the org was looking at Weber but they chose Carle because his team won the Memorial Cup instead of Weber's. Strong priorities.
We selected Ty Wishart over Claude Giroux because Wishart had "size" and "grit" and hit a lot while Giroux was undersized.
We selected Steve Bernier over Ryan Getzlaf (or Zach Parise, for that matter, because Bernier had "size" and "grit")
We selected Nick Petrecki over PK Subban because Petrecki was a hard hitter and played with grit.
We selected Devin Setoguchi over Anze Kopitar because our head of scouting is self-admittedly xenophobic and wanted a hard hitting Canadian over an offensively talented European.
We selected Milan Michalek over Ryan Suter but Michalek actually wasn't an awful pick.
We selected Steve Bernier over Patrice Bergeron, again Bernier isn't an awful type of player to get but still he isn't great.
We picked Dan Spang over Duncan Keith because Spang was a hard hitting stay-at-home defenseman and Keith was soft.
We selected Logan Couture over Ryan McDonagh because Couture was a good 2-way player who works hard. Yes Couture turned out good, but McDonagh is considerably better.

So yeah. Burke is a stupid scout who values team achievements over player abilities and 2-way play and hitting and character over actual talent. We won't be drafting any franchise players with him at the helm unless we're drafting in the top-5. Please stop trying to be optimistic by trying to pretend that we're going to get one and saying our future will be fine. We don't have any prospects who look to be becoming franchise players, we don't have any young franchise players, teams don't trade franchise players, this specific team doesn't sign franchise players in UFA (Like Chara, or Niedermayer, for example, both of which Wilson made a serious run at and actually outbid Boston/Anaheim for, respectively), and teams don't win without franchise players.

We're completely ****ed if we don't tank. And we aren't tanking. So we're completely ****ed.

That same scout that has used 1st round picks on Milan Michalek, Lukas Kaspar, Tomas Hertl, Mirco Mueller and Nicolai Goldobin is now suddenly xenophobic? Your post is nothing but hindsight and speculation and frankly goofy ranting.

 

[hohosaregood]

It's literally impossible for Carle to have won the memorial cup

 

[Gene Parmesan]

It's literally impossible for Carle to have won the memorial cup

And Wishart being gritty

 

[Pinkfloyd]

That same scout that has used 1st round picks on Milan Michalek, Lukas Kaspar, Tomas Hertl, Mirco Mueller and Nicolai Goldobin is now suddenly xenophobic? Your post is nothing but hindsight and speculation and frankly goofy ranting.

I wouldn't say Burke is xenophobic but he definitely has his strong biases towards certain players in certain regions mostly based on what he has seen compared to what he hasn't.

There is some merit to the hindsight in terms of performance evaluation for Burke and Wilson but there are signs of evolution as well but it's very recent so it would take time to find out if it pans out or not.

 

[Bizz]

I literally lost it when he said McDonaugh was better than Couture.

 

[Timo Time]

I hope we become a lotto team. That way we get still get picked for an outside of the top-10 pick just because it's the Sharks. Let's be honest, we won't be seeing a top-5 pick for an extended period of time.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

I wouldn't say Burke is xenophobic but he definitely has his strong biases towards certain players in certain regions mostly based on what he has seen compared to what he hasn't.

There is some merit to the hindsight in terms of performance evaluation for Burke and Wilson but there are signs of evolution as well but it's very recent so it would take time to find out if it pans out or not.

That's not just a San Jose Sharks trait. Its league wide.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I literally lost it when he said McDonaugh was better than Couture.

This can't be serious...

I wouldn't say Burke is xenophobic but he definitely has his strong biases towards certain players in certain regions mostly based on what he has seen compared to what he hasn't.

There is some merit to the hindsight in terms of performance evaluation for Burke and Wilson but there are signs of evolution as well but it's very recent so it would take time to find out if it pans out or not.

Right. Xenophobic may not be the right word but his comments towards Kopitar were of that nature.

I hope we become a lotto team. That way we get still get picked for an outside of the top-10 pick just because it's the Sharks. Let's be honest, we won't be seeing a top-5 pick for an extended period of time.

That isn't how the lottery works.

It's literally impossible for Carle to have won the memorial cup

I thought it was the Mem cup but I remember hearing some rumor that we picked him over weber because Carle beat webers team in junior

 

[Bizz]

I'm dead serious.

McDonaugh isn't even the best Defenseman on his own team. I'd take Braun over him any day of the week.

 

[SJeasy]

This can't be serious...



Right. Xenophobic may not be the right word but his comments towards Kopitar were of that nature.



That isn't how the lottery works.



I thought it was the Mem cup but I remember hearing some rumor that we picked him over weber because Carle beat webers team in junior

Carle won the NCAA frozen four. Weber did not win the Mem. Cup. They never played against each other as Carle went through the American program and Weber went through the Canadian program.

 

[Barrie22]

This can't be serious...



Right. Xenophobic may not be the right word but his comments towards Kopitar were of that nature.



That isn't how the lottery works.



I thought it was the Mem cup but I remember hearing some rumor that we picked him over weber because Carle beat webers team in junior

Carle was a university draft pick. Carle might have won the frozen four or whatever the top championship tournament is for university.

And weber is not really a fair top player who went late pick. He was a late whl player who was drafted to the nhl after his rookie whl season.

And webers team may not have ever won the mem cup. But he was on a team that won 2 whl championships and went to the mem cup 3 times (2nd year as host city after losing in the western conference finals of the whl).

 

[Hobocop]

Breaking news: Drafting not an exact science

 

[magic school bus]

That's not just a San Jose Sharks trait. Its league wide.

Agreed

 

[Barrie22]

Breaking news: Drafting not an exact science

no you are right drafting is not a exact science. after all you are dealing with kids who have yet to reach there full body's potential. you are also dealing with kids that are from other country's, other traditions. kids that are playing against different kinds of competitions.

to me with the sharks drafting, they go for players that do not have any real flaws in there game. but at the same time do not really excel at any one part of the game either (not taking risks).

just look at pavelski, he is pretty much good at everything. but not great at anything.

couture was/is even the same way.

with saying all that though, the sharks could be turning a new leaf (lets hope so). hertl and goldobin aren't the typical sharks picks.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I'm dead serious.

McDonaugh isn't even the best Defenseman on his own team. I'd take Braun over him any day of the week.

McDonagh is by far the best defenseman on his own team.

 

[hohosaregood]

This is Bizz we're talking about. The man has his opinions.