I didn't say that. I said you say that. Let's be clear on that.
And once again you fail to listen and understand. I explicitly said there is a very large population of the fan base that doesn't agree with that assertion. You fail to accept that. As I said, everyone knows what you think about this team, you put it in every thread you think makes sense to put it in.
So you are proposing I don't post in perfectly relevant threads since it is repeating myself? You realize I am no more repeating myself (and others) than you are repeating yourself (and others). I could make the exact same comment to you. You fail to understand my POV, you keep pushing your opinion with no understanding of mine, you seem unable to accept my POV as valid. Etc, etc, etc. It's a discussion board, we discuss things, we repeat ourselves, it's normal.
I'm fine with you having that POV but you don't seem fine with others having a different one, and it gets a little grating. Some people like to be positive and attempt to find odd ways to make the team better without tanking, some simply don't care as long as the hockey is fun to watch. Some fans(most likely not found on this board) don't care at all about the result of the games, they simply enjoying going to games or watching games with friends as a social outing. Sort of like me with baseball or basketball.
I prefer people have other opinions. If all this message board had was people agreeing with each other, I wouldn't be here. What I'm looking for is an argument that sways my opinion, which I am perfectly willing to do, but one has not been presented thus far that I find realistic enough to warrant that. Simply "being positive" is not a valid reason to change my opinion. Frankly, I feel I am being positive. I have no problem losing a season if we get a franchise player out of it, that's a good investment to make. I'm patient, I can still enjoy this season of hockey even if the team isn't winning as much, knowing it's getting us nearer to a cup the following season. It's like in chess when you sacrifice a piece, you do so in order to win, it's not an admission of failure.
All I'm trying to say is take a step back and understand that not everyone is disagreeing with you based on facts or theories, and might be in disagreement with you in a philosophical way.
I get that, I just find it pretty frustrating. Why anyone would look at this team at this point and think "yah they can do it!" to me seems like teal colored glasses. And if you really are happy just making the playoffs with virtually no hope at a cup, well we couldn't be more in disagreement then.
If you strive for 100% you may not achieve it, but if you strive for 99% you certainly never will.
See here is a good example of your mindset, and not being willing/able to understand others. When I read the op, the question asked "do you want to be a playoff team, or a lottery team". Hmmm now to me being a playoff team is not synonymous with be a cup contender, which it seems to me is how you interpreted the question.
So ok now we have two different ideas of the question, to which I state, I'm more excited to watch a playoff caliber team, regardless of cup winning potential, then a lottery team.
Now you thought, and maybe rightly so we'll have to ask the op, that the op implied that if we picked playoff team, we were automatically also picking we'd like to take a run at the cup.
The difference is that I dismiss anyone who is actually ok with making the playoffs just for the sake of making the playoffs. We are not the Phoenix Coyotes, and that is the most depressing outcome I can imagine. You either make the playoffs to take a shot at the cup, or you don't. I don't believe this team has a snowballs chance in hell at a cup, so making the playoffs is pointless and counter-productive.
Another season or two of going out in the first round will be absolutely devastating to this franchise. We will be in a position where our best players are too old to beat the best on other teams (we are arguable there now), our younger players are not of the caliber to take over that mantle, and we haven't had high enough draft picks to draft any new franchise players. We'll have a team of good to very good players, with no great players. We still won't be bad enough to get a high pick, but definitely worse than we are now, with no light at the end of the tunnel. THAT is why I choose a lotto pick, because THAT scenario is completely unacceptable.
Now here is something I will disagree with in a non philosophical way. We are not a worse team. We lost Dan Boyle, Stuart, havlat and moved a forward to defense.
As much as we bag on Boyle, he is still a significant loss. We replaced him with Burns, but that created a massive hole up front that was not filled. Will Burns be better than Boyle last season? Probably, but it's not a guarantee, but hopefully. Still though he isn't going to be so much better than Boyle that it makes up for the other holes on defense.
Stuart sucked, but he is still an NHL defensemen and as of now we are likely replacing him with either Irwin or Mueller. Slice it anyway you like it, that is still a downgrade, at least for this season.
And Havlat, while injury prone, was still a top-6 player when he was on the ice. Since we didn't use his cap space to replace him, we now have two huge holes in our top-6 and no new players to fill them.
We can argue how worthless those players all day long, but they were all NHL players and they were all better than nothing whether you want to admit it or not. We replaced them with nothing, we are worse off.
We will add, hockey gods willing, 47 more games of hertl, a whole season of healthy Torres and a more seasoned and ready nieto to this years team.
Hertl was healthy in the playoffs, and we still lost, as was Torres and Nieto. None of those players are additions. The only additions are John Scott and whatever prospects make the roster.
I know you think burns to defense is a negative, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Last year with a healthy lineup we had 7 top 6 forwards. 8 if you want to count havlat if he is ever healthy.
I don't think Burns to D is a negative. I never wanted him moved to forward if you recall. I argued vehemently against it. However, he still creates a huge hole at forward in order to fill a hole on defense. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. We are not a better team by only moving Burns to defense, we are simply shuffling deck chairs.
You may not like it, but pavs will fill the "hole" left by burns. Torres will fill the hole left by pavs, and after that we always have plenty of plugs for the fourth line.
Pavs was on the team last year, he isn't filling any holes. As was Torres. You have to look at the entire picture, you are again borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. You cannot subtract players, add none, and improve as a team. That's unrealistic. Pavs is a great player, but he doesn't fill Burns hole, and Torres certainly doesn't fill Pavs. You are arguably downgrading at both positions, but certainly massive downgrading if you replace Pavs with Torres. Plus as you pointed out, someone has to replace Torres still, and we added no one, especially not of Torres caliber. You are handwaving significant talent loss, and with the parity in the league even a small loss can be plenty to take a team out of contention. Especially a team that already wasn't a contender.
Moving burns to defense if it works out, means the right side of our defense is set without a doubt. Without him we now have 3 holes to fill on defense. Whereas we would have 1 to fill in the top 6 with burns absence, which is already theoretically filled. In other words we have a bigger need on d then o, thus if burns can actually flourish as a top line defenseman paired with vlassic, I think it's the better move.
I don't disagree about moving him to D, but the only thing it solves is replacing Boyle, that's it. We had Boyle AND Burns last year, and if we still had them both we would be better off. Arguing that losing Boyle and replacing him with another player already on the roster makes us a better team is just fundamentally wrong. Your net sum went down, it doesn't matter who you move where, your total talent level went down.
I am as well so I ditto that statement.
P.s. Btw hb, please understand that although I'm specifically pointing out your posts to quote, I'm not trying to attack you. I actually think that you make cogent and well thought out posts, while also asking very good thought provoking questions. I just disagree a bit with your absolutism.
That's great, I enjoy discussion, but I honestly feel like your argument essentially boils down to "I want this team to be a cup caliber team so I am going to believe that it is, despite reality". I'm not trying to be negative here, I'm trying to prepare people for what is very likely going to be a disappointing season.
What I am afraid of most right now is that Platner's plan here is to intentionally cripple the team for a season or two in order to drive down ratings just enough to make a realistic threat to move the team in order to re-negotiate a terrible TV deal. There is no way a businessman of his caliber is going to accept another 10+ years of no hope of profitability (a TV deal like that coupled with our limited seating space pretty much guarantees the team will not see a profit or even break even). Sure he's rich and he can afford it, but he got rich by being a smart businessman, and a smart business man would not allow a deal like that to stand. They tried the 'win a cup' to fix it route, that didn't work and they have clearly abandoned it, so now they look to be going to the opposite route and THAT is terrifying for us. It means multiple seasons of intentionally mediocre teams in order to sell the threat.
Tanking on purpose to win later is not the only way to rebuild, and is a bit offensive. You step onto that ice, you need to try to win. Purposefully putting a weaker team out there is just wrong.
I stopped caring last season at the TDL, when we sat on our hands. I knew our blue line was not cup caliber. It has been obvious for a few years now. Thus far this offseason we are sitting on our hands again. All we need to have a legitimate chance is a tweener RW and a kid like Gelinas or krug. Someone to pair with Braun that can drive the offense from the left. (Mueller/Irwin with demers as 3rd pair). Thus far, dw is refusing to do anything about it. If he did, we would have a 50/50 chance of knocking any team off.
I'm not proposing Wilson go into the locker room and tell them to lose, that's not something you do. You simply don't supply them with a team capable of winning until such time that it is worth the assets to do so. Supplying them a team capable of being a good regular season team is counter productive.
My point is that we are not far off with our current roster. If dw had tried something of worth on July 1 we could be talking one piece not two.
Heck, try an offer sheet again. Team will match but at least it would show he is not content to wait on nothing
You don't offer sheet away your 1st pick in 2015, this is not a draft you give up a 1st rounder in.
Well, yeah going by that logic, it's not true and I'm totally wrong.
I thought the consensus was that the Sharks are still pretty much a lock for the playoffs, thus they have a better chance at the cup than a lottery pick. I suppose anything can happen, but this is still a pretty good team.
I was just trying to say that the Sharks are likely to make the playoffs, thus that 1 in 16 chance to win the cup is more realistic than that 1 in 14 shot at a lottery pick.
Edit: Just read some of the replys to your reply and mine, hockeyball. I agree that the Sharks are not a cup contender. I'm just saying that the Sharks are closer to a cup, by just making the playoffs, than a lottery pick, because they will almost certainly make the playoffs. Sorry if I'm being confusing.
I disagree. Making the playoffs does not make you a cup contender, I don't buy that silly platitude that is often used. You are either a cup contender, or you are not. It's one thing to be a team on the rise and making the playoffs being a stepping stone to contending, but the Sharks are a team on the decline and making the playoffs at this point is pissing in the wind.
