Post-Game Talk: Loss

HIFE

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May 10, 2011
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Detroit, MI
I might be in the minority here but I really think a rebuild could take 2 years for us. A top 3-5 pick this year and then a top 6-10 next year. One forward, one D.

Our younger pieces moving forward Larkin, AA, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Mrazek, Sproul, I hope Russo pans out, Svech.

Complimentary players- Abby, Helm, Nielson, MAYBE Green, maybe Nyquist/Tatar, DDK

Mantha-Larkin-Draft pick
Abby-Nielsen-Nyquist
AA-Svech-Bertuzzi
Glendening-Helm-I don't care

Green-DDK
Russo-Draft pick
Sproul- We'll see

Not a bad lineup. With Larkin, Mantha, Nielson, Helm, AA, Svech and whatever top 10 forward (if we draft one of each F/D) we are talking plenty of speed. I mean really fast.

Svech, Bertuzzi, Mantha, Abby, AA is plenty of size up front. Compared to hoping Tatar, Zetterberg, Nyquist can be awesome forecheckers...

Defense has an NHL ready player from the start, plenty of right handers, and plenty of PP options between Sproul/Green/Draft pick.

Some of the names flashing out...YEEES!!! Go with only the top talents, all prospects cycled through, sink or swim. DRW analogies relate to water but you don't drown and die in sports. You reincarnate. I think fans will buy in to an "organic" rebuild. Throw everything we have out there and let nature take it's course.

We could envision a future without Abdelkader, Helm, or Glendening. Tatar is not necessary. Keep Nyquist if possible. I like the D pairings but people are forgetting Marchenko. AM despite his bumps has been adept for many a game I'd like to give him time.
 

HIFE

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May 10, 2011
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Detroit, MI
Wow I think sproul got more hate on that play then some of Ericssons really dumb plays

When people hated him it's cause he was garbage at anything. Didn't see anyone call out a specific play. Other then him literally putting it in the net himself. But even then I'm pretty sure I saw less

The response was extreme. Sproul made an instinctual move which was a big mistake I doubt he does it again. At least he had the sense to get off the ice. ;) We all embarrass ourselves let it go.
 

splot

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Jun 12, 2014
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I might be in the minority here but I really think a rebuild could take 2 years for us. A top 3-5 pick this year and then a top 6-10 next year. One forward, one D.
The problem is, to be a contender in 2 years, Detroit is going to need a #1D that they currently don't have and #1C to replace Z, who arguably isn't a good one at this point and won't be then. People are seriously underestimating how hard you gotta tank to see a real improved chance at drafting top talent. Chances of getting that in the first round unless you draft in top 3 both years is slim to none. All statistics show that. For that #1D its even more of a shot in the dark, even top drafted ones doesn't work out most of the time. I really don't see how Detroit realistically could get a top 3 pick this year without some stupid good luck in the draft lottery. As much as you might dislike Detroits current team, Colorado, Arizona, Buffalo, Islanders etc are clearly worse teams. There's a good chance that they miss the playoffs, yes, but there's no way any rational person would think that Detroit is gonna tank if they got even a slim chance at making the playoffs. The payout for going from a mid/late 1st round draft pick to one maybe around 5-10 isn't something that's likely to make us contenders at any point, let alone in 2 years.
 

avssuc

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This is the same team over the last 20 games, some good and bad. It was a long, slow game but as Winger said there is some type of improvement happening? Definitely a good hockey game worth checking out.

Just finished. Much better than I thought from the comments. Sproul will learn from that. I didn't think it was that bad. He probably assumed Mantha had the streaking farside middle and he didn't. Oh well.

Larkin needs to drive and shoot decisively, his passes (when he has a great chance) seem more like wishful thinking. I think Larkin could be a notch below elite if he figures that out, assuming he gets a guy to clean up his trash (dare I say pull his piano?).

Kronwall got murdered again tonight. I feel bad for the dude, it's like he has a target on his back, and he has no legs to get out of the way. Such a stud at one time, not he's getting throttled for because of the legend he built with the same.

I still don't like DeKeyser in the top 4. So many plays he kills for his team and creates for the other. He needs to summer with Lidstrom next year.
 

KasperTheGrittyGhost

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Jan 12, 2008
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Wish I could find the video but I recall him doing something very similar in a Grand Rapids like 3 or 4 years ago. Just goes for a line change and leaves a guy for a breakaway. Looks like he still hasn't learned.

Just misread the play. I guarantee that was miscommunication between him and Mantha, who probably should've released low. He'll get chewed up by Houda and Blash in the film room, and it only cost a point.

This murderous *****ing about every bad play is so annoying.
 

Konnan511

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Sproul has shown these exact plays his entire career. He's going to wow us 5 games in a row, and then the 6th game he's going to flub it up real bad. It's a give and take.
 

ap3x

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Jan 31, 2014
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Just misread the play. I guarantee that was miscommunication between him and Mantha, who probably should've released low. He'll get chewed up by Houda and Blash in the film room, and it only cost a point.

This murderous *****ing about every bad play is so annoying.

What do u expect? We're no machines just objectively analyzing plays without showing emotions. Especially when it's the 7th loss in 8 home games against this team, and not burying one on the other side seconds before the GWG. For sure it sucks for the moment.

On top of that, Sproul couldn't have taken a PP at a worse time in regulation. Especially when considering that we were on the PP. It's the first time that he ****ed up like this. It happens and we'll getting over it if he gets back to his former play. But that doesn't change anything about being pissed at the moment.
 

steafo

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Sep 26, 2005
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Wow I think sproul got more hate on that play then some of Ericssons really dumb plays

When people hated him it's cause he was garbage at anything. Didn't see anyone call out a specific play. Other then him literally putting it in the net himself. But even then I'm pretty sure I saw less

I hated the play he made. It showed bad awareness of his position and of his teammates as well. 3 on 3 more than any other situation requires puck control. That is why when Vanek slowly skated out of the zone when we seemingly had control was a good play because he recognized we needed a change and the play wasn't there.

He gets a pass from me on his bonehead plays this year because he is in fact a rookie. He may never fix this because there have been questions about his hockey IQ before this. I don't mind rookies making mistakes like this and even mistakes in our own zone because they will ultimately learn from it. The real head scratcher is when Ericsson and Smith continue to make these plays in all 3 zones. There is hope a rookie can learn and be better the next time with the rest of our defenseman that is not the case.
 

TKB

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Jun 12, 2010
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Okay Sproul made a a bad play, but am I the only one that thinks Tatar's read and reaction to it was even worse?
 

Ezekial

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Okay Sproul made a a bad play, but am I the only one that thinks Tatar's read and reaction to it was even worse?

I'm sure you can find some other fans that want to **** on Tatar with you, but I think you'd be wrong. I'd put that on both Sproul and Mantha 10000 times before Tatar.... At least Tats, you know, tried to make a play on the puck.
I'm sure Tats didn't think both his line mates would change right there.
 

Hammettf2b

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Jul 9, 2012
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Sproul gives the puck to the other team for no reason and then goes for a line change? That's not how you 3v3.

Wasn't it Mantha that went off for the change? Maybe both? Not that I blame him though, (Mantha) he was on the ice for a long time before that.
 
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ElysiumAB

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Sep 12, 2013
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It's crazy to me that Zetterberg is still the best player on this team. There should be 3-4 forwards consistently making more of an impact than he is - no one has stepped up. Larkin, AA, Mantha look like they're close - but Z is still carrying this team on his back.
 

Frk It

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Jul 27, 2010
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Is next year's draft that top heavy?

I'm not an expert, but seems to be the consensus from the experts. Dahlin, Svechnikov, Veleno, Merkley seems like a pretty good group. Dahlin and Svechnikov are putting up very good numbers for their age in their respective leagues.
 

Henkka

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Jan 31, 2004
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It's crazy to me that Zetterberg is still the best player on this team. There should be 3-4 forwards consistently making more of an impact than he is - no one has stepped up. Larkin, AA, Mantha look like they're close - but Z is still carrying this team on his back.

Mantha is consistently better than anybody else.

My scoringchance data from the game:

Player, Goals+Assists, AllAttempts(Quality)+AssistedAttempts(Quality), Screens+OtherOffPlay+OtherDefPlay = Total

LW Mantha 0+0, 3(2)+3(2), 1+1+0 = 12
C Zetterberg, 1+0, 2(2)+3(0), 0+1+0 = 9
RW Tatar, 0+0, 1(1)+3(1), 0+0+0 = 6
----------------- Matnha keeps going. Carries this line. Created relatively most quality chances for himself and for teammates.

LW Abdelkader, 0+0, 0(0)+1(0), 0+0+0 = 1
C Nielsen, 0+0, 3(1)+3(2), 0+0+2 = 11
RW Glendening, 0+0, 0(0)+1(1), 4+0+1 = 7
-------------- Abdelkader did get injured. Nielsen getting better as season goes on. He wasn't getting +10 point night at all earlier in the season.

LW Vanek, 0+0, 5(4)+2(1), 1+0+0 = 13
C Larkin, 0+0, 2(0)+4(2), 0+2+0 = 10
RW Nyquist, 0+0, 1(1)+3(0), 2+0+1 = 8
------------ Monster-game from Vanek with great chances, but nothing did go in.

LW Jurco, 0+0, 0(0)+1(0), 1+0+1= 3
C Sheahan, 0+0, 3(0)+0(0), 1+1+1 = 6
RW Ott, 0+0, 0(0)+0(0), 0+0+2 = 2
-------------- Jurco get some extra role after Abdelkader dropped out (Sheahan also get some extra shifts), but is still very average on my point scale. Only just two games but his effort is not enough for a starting roster. Sheahan, Ott and even Miller does better.

LD DeKeyser, 0+0, 2(0)+ 0(0), 0+0+4 = 6
RD Green, 0+0, 7(3)+3(1), 0+1+1 = 16
LD Kronwall, 0+0, 0(0)+1(0), 0+0+2 = 3
RD Ouellet, 0+0, 1(0)+0(0), 0+0+2 = 3
LD Ericsson, 0+0, 1(0)+2(0), 0+0+2 = 5
RD Sproul, 0+0, 3(0)+0(0), 0+0+2 = 5

Great game from Green, should have deserved some points but couldn't get nearer than hitting once a crossbar.

If somebody wonders what are those point totals, they go basicly like this:

3 points = Goal or Quality assist which becames a goal
2 points = Assist, Quality scoring chance, Quality scoring chance assist or Screen, which did have an impact for a goal scored
1 point = Basic scoring attempt from non-high-danger zone, assisted basic attempt, screen, faceoff which did lead to scoring attempt, forecheking play which did lead to attempt, drawn penalty, block, takeway, good defensive play to prevent opposite attempt etc.
 
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HIFE

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May 10, 2011
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Detroit, MI
Just finished. Much better than I thought from the comments. Sproul will learn from that. I didn't think it was that bad. He probably assumed Mantha had the streaking farside middle and he didn't. Oh well.

Larkin needs to drive and shoot decisively, his passes (when he has a great chance) seem more like wishful thinking. I think Larkin could be a notch below elite if he figures that out, assuming he gets a guy to clean up his trash (dare I say pull his piano?).

Kronwall got murdered again tonight. I feel bad for the dude, it's like he has a target on his back, and he has no legs to get out of the way. Such a stud at one time, not he's getting throttled for because of the legend he built with the same.

I still don't like DeKeyser in the top 4. So many plays he kills for his team and creates for the other. He needs to summer with Lidstrom next year.

Interesting thoughts. I was happy to see Larkin on one rush about to go wide around the net- instead he stayed towards the middle and popped a nice simple shot on goal. I'm sure he's being told what to consider but it takes time to internalize this type of decision making.

Kronwall also threw a big check! :laugh: Yeah it's been eye-opening how hard he and Z are being run at, this league has no mercy. I think some of the teams actually enjoy catching our vets this way. Must be years of retribution bottled up. Payback is hell!

DeKeyser trained by Lidstrom would be terrific. I'm thinking it's kind of sad DDK never got to play with the Perfect Human. Ericsson and Kronwall are survivors because of their time with St.Nick. I wish he had more time to be directly involved coaching our D.
 

HIFE

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May 10, 2011
3,220
259
Detroit, MI
Mantha is consistently better than anybody else.

-Matnha keeps going. Carries this line. Created relatively most quality chances for himself and for teammates.

-Abdelkader did get injured. Nielsen getting better as season goes on. He wasn't getting +10 point night at all earlier in the season.

-Monster-game from Vanek with great chances, but nothing did go in.

-Jurco get some extra role after Abdelkader dropped out (Sheahan also get some extra shifts), but is still very average on my point scale. Only just two games but his effort is not enough for a starting roster. Sheahan, Ott and even Miller does better.

-Great game from Green, should have deserved some points but couldn't get nearer than hitting once a crossbar.

Henkka your analysis is spot on. Jurco isn't stealing anyone's job, the only possibility is Miller. In frustration with the team in general I've complained about Nielsen, but yes he is playing better. He's a damn solid guy and a pleasure to watch, I feel guilty for dissing him. Mantha and Green are bright spots on a mostly dull and grey horizon.

Ott amazes me. His skating, skill, hockey IQ are much much greater than I thought. May be St.Louis, Dallas, etc. treated him as a joke so he played like a joke. In Detroit he's been given honest respect and a responsibility- he's done well with it. Do I want him on the team next year? No.:laugh: But he's playing his heart out and also fun to watch... you can't say that for every player.
 

avssuc

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May 1, 2016
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I'd hold off on Jurco. Dude just got back and isn't nearly up to speed yet. They keep talking about the weight he lost, but it's more a result of being laid up, not of him getting shredded. I'd bet he needs a month or so to get up to speed.


Does Miller make any other NHL roster? It makes no sense to play him unless every waiver exempt prospect is unavailable. Ott is a close second, but at least he has the ability to forecheck.
 

Yzerman1919*

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Feb 10, 2013
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The problem is, to be a contender in 2 years, Detroit is going to need a #1D that they currently don't have and #1C to replace Z,
who arguably isn't a good one at this point and won't be then. People are seriously underestimating how hard you gotta tank to see a real improved chance at drafting top talent. Chances of getting that in the first round unless you draft in top 3 both years is slim to none. All statistics show that. For that #1D its even more of a shot in the dark, even top drafted ones doesn't work out most of the time. I really don't see how Detroit realistically could get a top 3 pick this year without some stupid good luck in the draft lottery. As much as you might dislike Detroits current team, Colorado, Arizona, Buffalo, Islanders etc are clearly worse teams. There's a good chance that they miss the playoffs, yes, but there's no way any rational person would think that Detroit is gonna tank if they got even a slim chance at making the playoffs. The payout for going from a mid/late 1st round draft pick to one maybe around 5-10 isn't something that's likely to make us contenders at any point, let alone in 2 years.

The point is if we get two top 10 picks, preferably a top 3 then a top 5-8. This is exactly what we will do. Then to have a supporting cast of Larkin, Mantha, Abby, Nyquist, Nielsen, Sproul, DDK, maybe Russo, and Mrazek as a supporting cast with 2 more years of experience, we look good.

If Holland could SOMEHOW make a ****ing trade and acquire a Fowler/Trouba on top of that we'd look WAY better.

Trouba-DDK
Top 3 draft pick-Green
Sproul-Russo
 

Yzerman1919*

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Henkka your analysis is spot on. Jurco isn't stealing anyone's job, the only possibility is Miller. In frustration with the team in general I've complained about Nielsen, but yes he is playing better. He's a damn solid guy and a pleasure to watch, I feel guilty for dissing him. Mantha and Green are bright spots on a mostly dull and grey horizon.

Ott amazes me. His skating, skill, hockey IQ are much much greater than I thought. May be St.Louis, Dallas, etc. treated him as a joke so he played like a joke. In Detroit he's been given honest respect and a responsibility- he's done well with it. Do I want him on the team next year? No.:laugh: But he's playing his heart out and also fun to watch... you can't say that for every player.

Nielsen has been much better. He's quietly creeping his way up to lead us in points, top 3 now.

I really hope we bring Ott back on a 2 way deal for next to nothing again. That guy plays with so much **** and vinegar, and it is contagious. When was the last time the DRW actually fought this much??!! It's been 10 years. He is a lot better passer and skater than anyone's given him credit for. And that is because he has wanted to play for the DRW since he was a kid, and KH actually gave him a chance. Good for Otter.
 

obey86

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Jun 9, 2009
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I'm fine with bringing Ott back if we can dump Glendening and Miller. 1 of the "grinder" (aka worthless on offense) types is enough.
 

Henkka

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Jan 31, 2004
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Tampere, Finland
Does Miller make any other NHL roster? It makes no sense to play him unless every waiver exempt prospect is unavailable. Ott is a close second, but at least he has the ability to forecheck.

Miller is most worthless forward on my stats currently. He has only those defensive efforts he brings to team but our other guys match that PK effort as well and bring also something else on the team.

I've seen some good Zone entry data from Miller, but so has Sheahan and Glendening and Larkin and Helm and Nielsen and Nyquist, we have guys to do that.
 

Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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Sproul has shown these exact plays his entire career. He's going to wow us 5 games in a row, and then the 6th game he's going to flub it up real bad. It's a give and take.
And we need to take it. Guys like Dekeyser, Ouellet or Marchenko can never learn the offensive skill and IQ that Sproul has. And they have all made many comparable errors this season.
 

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