OT: Los Angeles Angels Talk

[Hockey Duckie]

Getting over .500 doesn't mean much in baseball? This is crazy cognitive dissonance.

Getting over .500 means your record is on the winning side, which also means an improved chance at the playoffs.

In 2012, the Angels had a .549 winning record (89-73). They had a better record than AL Central division winner Detroit (88-74). So your diatribe that finising over .500 doesn't matter is a load of crap.

In 2014, the Angels had a .605 winning record, the best league record (98-64). This was a playoff year. In the playoffs, Sosh wanted OF Hamilton on the roster despite not being in any recent games due to his injury/lapses instead of a more useful player. Hambone went 0 for forevers in that series. Manager Sosh overruled General Manager Dipoto. As for the AL West being weak, the Athletics were a playoff team and the Mariners barely missed the playoffs by 2 wins (for a tie), 3 wins to be in. Some revisionist history going on in your story, @Anaheim4ever .

In 2015, the Angel had a .525 winning record (85-77). The last wild card team was the Yanks with an 87-75 record (.537). The Angels were a few wins again from another playoff spot. Dipoto quit mid-season. In the playoffs, Sosh wanted OF Hamilton on the roster despite not being in any recent games due to his injury/lapses instead of a more useful player. Hambone went 0 for forevers in that series.

Again, all your talk about .500 doesn't mean much in the MLB as it does in the NHL is just a false narrative on your part. Under Dipoto, the Angels were a few wins away from being in the playoffs a total of three times in four years. Under Eppler, the Angels haven't sniffed over .500 in four season, not including this one, which could make it five seasons. Down playing .500 seasons is a malice tactic to feel better about Eppler.

We haven't won in four seasons. Arte firing Eppler isn't something born out of impatience. This is going to be year five of playing under .500. That's patience! But Arte will be looking for another "yes" man to continue this trend of losing. With retrospect, we should be giving Dipoto a lot more praise for working in ways to work around Arte's meddling.

Arte isn't "Al Davis" nor "Steinbrenner". Arte is into looking good and getting profits. Al Davis would go above and beyond for wins. Steinbrenner would gladly pay the salary tax to ensure a winning team. Arte isn't that. Arte like to meddle like Al or Steinbrenner, but there are constraints under Arte, which there weren't under Al and Steinbrenner. Arte had a good thing with Dipoto. Too good because Dipoto wouldn't play the stupid game Arte was doing and allowing. We now have a similar record to Dipoto's complete rebuilding Mariners this year. That's pathetic. And the Mariner's farm team is also ranked better than ours! That's adding salt to our wounds.

You lost all credibility with me about baseball with this .500 schtick to push an odd narrative, especially when I shared the Angels weren't that far away from a playoff spot with those other non-playoff .500 seasons. smh

 

[MMC]

Glad to see this place has stopped trying to defend Eppler. He has no f***ing clue. There’s no chance he's the GM next season.

 

[Static]

Glad to see this place has stopped trying to defend Eppler. He has no f***ing clue. There’s no chance he's the GM next season.

Yeah I think you're completely wrong. If you want to get mad, get mad at the owner.

 

[MMC]

Yeah I think you're completely wrong. If you want to get mad, get mad at the owner.

I guess the first part of what I said is wrong

 

[Static]

I guess the first part of what I said is wrong

You know what, you are always right. My mistake.

 

[MMC]

You know what, you are always right. My mistake.

Well, you didn’t refute anything I said. I already blame Arte for a lot of the things that are wrong with the team. It doesn’t mean Eppler isn’t a horrific GM who has shown absolutely nothing to inspire any confidence that he can build a winning baseball team.

 

[mightyquack]

Wow, I wonder why no-one talks in this thread anymore.

 

[MMC]

Wow, I wonder why no-one talks in this thread anymore.

Probably has something to do with the fact that the team is having their worst start in franchise history?

 

[Static]

Well, you didn’t refute anything I said. I already blame Arte for a lot of the things that are wrong with the team. It doesn’t mean Eppler isn’t a horrific GM who has shown absolutely nothing to inspire any confidence that he can build a winning baseball twam.

The amount of hyperbole is too much to take seriously. I'll take opinions of people in the business who think eppler has done a good job building the franchise back up but has taken hits from awful luck and ownership meddling.

Eppler has brought in literally every player worth a damn to this team while dealing with contracts to the likes of pujols and Hamilton for the majority of his tenure. $50 million in dead money.

He brought in a ton of talent in pitching only to see a record number of TJ surgeries and even one die. He built a farm system back up from the depths of hell, literally the worst system scouts had ever seen, to top 10 status in three years, all with a win mandate from ownership.

I'd say he has done a hell of a job, and with a little luck, he'd have made the playoffs multiple times.

And it is laughable to even make any serious assessments on this baseball "season". This year is just a roll of the dice on all fronts.

 

[Static]

It would also be hilarious for someone to explain to me what he even could have done better this past off-season. Anyone look at the free agent and trade bait pitcher performances?

Cole wasnt coming here. He got $300 million to play for his favorite team. Strausberg has struggled and is on the DL. Ryu has performed pretty well, about half a win so far. Robbie Ray has been awful. Wheeler wanted to stay out east. Jon gray has struggled. Kluber is done for the year.

Want to know who has outperformed them all? Dylan Bundy. If things didn't go to shit, we would have a rotation of ohtani, skaggs, heaney, Stripling, and Bundy. That's pretty f***ing good, and didn't happen through no fault of the GM.

 

[duxfan1101]

I'm in between both of you. I am very thankful that our farm system isn't the worst of all time anymore, and he has brought in some good talent. However, at some point, the results have to matter. I get that we have had some bad luck, and the Pujols contract continues to be an enormous burden, but we should be a much better team than this.

 

[Static]

I'm in between both of you. I am very thankful that our farm system isn't the worst of all time anymore, and he has brought in some good talent. However, at some point, the results have to matter. I get that we have had some bad luck, and the Pujols contract continues to be an enormous burden, but we should be a much better team than this.

I think this season is just a complete throwaway. So many variables that cannot be planned for and the volatility of player performance is at an all time high.

 

[duxfan1101]

Upton has really screwed us over, too. He's been absolutely terrible. At least Goodwin has emerged as the starter, though.

 

[MMC]

The amount of hyperbole is too much to take seriously. I'll take opinions of people in the business who think eppler has done a good job building the franchise back up but has taken hits from awful luck and ownership meddling.

This means nothing if you don't provide any context. Who said this? Is it one person, or it really the "business"? Was this before we had the worst start in team history?

Eppler has brought in literally every player worth a damn to this team while dealing with contracts to the likes of pujols and Hamilton for the majority of his tenure. $50 million in dead money.

Only real impact players he brought in were Rendon (and I attribute that all to Arte after hearing both Rendon's and Boras's comments) and Bundy (remains to be seen how good he really is now). The rest are dime a dozen.

He brought in a ton of talent in pitching only to see a record number of TJ surgeries and even one die. He built a farm system back up from the depths of hell, literally the worst system scouts had ever seen, to top 10 status in three years, all with a win mandate from ownership.

I'd say he has done a hell of a job, and with a little luck, he'd have made the playoffs multiple times.

And it is laughable to even make any serious assessments on this baseball "season". This year is just a roll of the dice on all fronts.

What talented pitchers did he bring in? Ohtani? Bundy? When have either of these two shown they can be consistently good top of the rotation starters? And when has our farm ever been considered top 10? It hasn't and it's currently in the bottom 1/3rd in the league.

It would also be hilarious for someone to explain to me what he even could have done better this past off-season. Anyone look at the free agent and trade bait pitcher performances?

Cole wasnt coming here. He got $300 million to play for his favorite team. Strausberg has struggled and is on the DL. Ryu has performed pretty well, about half a win so far. Robbie Ray has been awful. Wheeler wanted to stay out east. Jon gray has struggled. Kluber is done for the year.

He's had the job for 5 years now. It's his responsibility to upgrade the pitching and he's neglected to do so for what has now been 5 years. I notice you're not even bringing up the bullpen, which is also one of the worst in the league.

Want to know who has outperformed them all? Dylan Bundy. If things didn't go to shit, we would have a rotation of ohtani, skaggs, heaney, Stripling, and Bundy. That's pretty f***ing good, and didn't happen through no fault of the GM.

Again, Bundy has made 5 starts here. No one knows how good he'll actually be here. It's ridiculous for you to act like he's some savior to the team when he's had 4 above average starts. And that rotation you posted is not "pretty f***ing good", even if Ohtani became an ace (which was always a massive gamble), you're following him with 4 guys who have never proven to be more than 4-5 starters at the major league level? Is "luck" actually the issue here, or is it time to admit he's just not all that great at evaluating talent?

I think this season is just a complete throwaway. So many variables that cannot be planned for and the volatility of player performance is at an all time high.

This would be a great excuse, except for the fact that a similar excuse has been made every season, and the fact that every other team who was projected to be in competition for the expanded playoffs in the AL has lived up to expectations, EXCEPT for the Angels (maybe you throw Texas in here but they are still 3 games ahead of us). Everyone knew Baltimore, Seattle, Kansas City, Detroit, and Boston would be bad and they are. The Angels currently dwell in the same tier as them, meanwhile all of the projected playoff contenders in the AL, are, in fact, contending for the playoffs. At what point is it time to admit the team just isn't that good?

 

[MMC]

I'm in between both of you. I am very thankful that our farm system isn't the worst of all time anymore, and he has brought in some good talent. However, at some point, the results have to matter. I get that we have had some bad luck, and the Pujols contract continues to be an enormous burden, but we should be a much better team than this.

I'm also happy with the way Eppler has improved the farm, and I completely understand why some people like him. What I don't understand, is why some people refuse to attribute ANY of the blame to him, and instead blame luck, injuries, Dipoto, Arte, Sosh/Ausmus/Maddon and whatever the hell else.

 

[Static]

This means nothing if you don't provide any context. Who said this? Is it one person, or it really the "business"? Was this before we had the worst start in team history?

I have asked many baseball writers like Keith Law, Jay Jaffe, Jeff Sullivan, Dan Szymborski, ect. in baseball chats and they all said the same thing: ownership is a problem and that he has done a good job accumulating talent and building up the farm in his time there.

Only real impact players he brought in were Rendon (and I attribute that all to Arte after hearing both Rendon's and Boras's comments) and Bundy (remains to be seen how good he really is now). The rest are dime a dozen.

This is just bad. Simmons is going to be a hall of fame player who Eppler brought in for relatively nothing. 15 WAR in four seasons is not a dime a dozen, that is ridiculous. He brought in Ohtani when every single team was trying to do the same, even Upton was very good up until injuries killed him last year. Martin Maldonado was a backup and was traded for and won a gold glove. I can go on and on about the talent he has brought in over the years, but it would take too long. Go checkout a fangraphs page and read into what a "dime a dozen" player is, and then try and understand how many players actually don't fit that criteria. It isn't many.

What talented pitchers did he bring in? Ohtani? Bundy? When have either of these two shown they can be consistently good top of the rotation starters? And when has our farm ever been considered top 10? It hasn't and it's currently in the bottom 1/3rd in the league.

Three years on the job and the major minor league system websites had them listed 11th, 12th, and 14th (MLB, Baseball America, Fangraphs). You're right, not quite top 10, but inches away. The only reason they have dropped is because of the amount of graduations from what he has built.

He's had the job for 5 years now. It's his responsibility to upgrade the pitching and he's neglected to do so for what has now been 5 years. I notice you're not even bringing up the bullpen, which is also one of the worst in the league.

Not for lack of trying. I don't think you are giving credence to the amount of injuries this team has sustained to every single starting pitcher of value, some multiple times missing entire years. The bullpen has been 6th, 16th twice, and 22nd in WAR, not worst in the league. If you want to go by this year, sure. This year is not the year to make assessments on players though, unless you think Christian Yelich is suddenly hot garbage.

Again, Bundy has made 5 starts here. No one knows how good he'll actually be here. It's ridiculous for you to act like he's some savior to the team when he's had 4 above average starts. And that rotation you posted is not "pretty f***ing good", even if Ohtani became an ace (which was always a massive gamble), you're following him with 4 guys who have never proven to be more than 4-5 starters at the major league level? Is "luck" actually the issue here, or is it time to admit he's just not all that great at evaluating talent?
This would be a great excuse, except for the fact that a similar excuse has been made every season, and the fact that every other team who was projected to be in competition for the expanded playoffs in the AL has lived up to expectations, EXCEPT for the Angels (maybe you throw Texas in here but they are still 3 games ahead of us). Everyone knew Baltimore, Seattle, Kansas City, Detroit, and Boston would be bad and they are. The Angels currently dwell in the same tier as them, meanwhile all of the projected playoff contenders in the AL, are, in fact, contending for the playoffs. At what point is it time to admit the team just isn't that good?

You are arguing out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand, the pitcher he brought in has been excellent, far better than any of the other pitchers available during the offseason. On the other hand, he hasn't done anything to improve the pitching. Pick a side.

I don't think you know what 4-5 starters are. Heaney, Skaggs, and Stripling are above league average starting pitchers, which is generally considered a number three. League average pitchers bring in around 2 WAR. Bundy, depends on what he actually is. If he is, let's say, in the middle of what he has been with us and what he was before, then he is still above average. He is a little different considering the factors surrounding his success (pitch selection, coaching).

The team has underachieved, I agree there. But putting that on the GM is shortsighted considering what the team has dealt with injury-wise as well as what he had to deal with financially from the outset, on top of continuous meddling from an idiot owner.

 

[Static]

I'm also happy with the way Eppler has improved the farm, and I completely understand why some people like him. What I don't understand, is why some people refuse to attribute ANY of the blame to him, and instead blame luck, injuries, Dipoto, Arte, Sosh/Ausmus/Maddon and whatever the hell else.

It doesn’t mean Eppler isn’t a horrific GM who has shown absolutely nothing to inspire any confidence that he can build a winning baseball team.

Yeah, this doesn't track.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Arte's meddling is the cause of ire for us Angels fans. Yet, Dipoto was able to still finish above .500 three out of four years as well as a playoff appearance under said same manager. Arte cost Dipoto two consecutive 1st round picks due to FA signings of 1B Pujols and OF Hamilton. That Hamilton selection was Arte while Dipoto trade for ace pitcher Greinke in-season to avoid losing a 1st round pick to get an ace.

Dipoto's philosophy was to build up the pitching. He traded for closer Street, Heaney, Skaggs, Hector Santiago, Nick Tropeano, and signed setup man Joe Smith on top of what the Angels already had. Fletcher was drafted in 2015, technically a Dipoto draftee. So Dipoto still worked around Arte's meddling until he couldn't any longer.

Arte likes homers and hitters. Eppler truly is the right guy for him, but Eppler used to work for a guy who would spend money. Eppler got hitters, but didn't have money for pitchers because of Arte. Yet, Dipoto made it work.

Eppler's had five seasons of 1st round draft picks where as Dipoto had only 2. The only first round who's looked great so far is Adell in the minors. We might have something with SP Detmers. C Thaiss is not much. We traded away SS Wilson. We still have OF Adams. Detmers is the first pitcher the Angels have taken in the first round under Eppler in five years.

Currently, the Mariners farm team ranks 9th and the Angels ranked 26th by mlb.com. Angels have two players ranked in the top-100, OF Adell and Marsh. Seattle has five players ranked in the top-100 (OF Kelenic, OF Rodriguez, RHP Gilbert, 1B White, and RHP Kirby). Kirby was a 2019 draftee, selected 20th overall. In that same draft, the Angels drafted SS Wilson and passed up four pitchers, which included Kirby.

There should be no excuses after five seasons, especially after four sub .500 consecutive seasons. Eppler probably works better under an owner who's willing to overspend, but Eppler's philosophy for the Angels hasn't worked. People forget that Dipoto was also stuck with Hamilton for two seasons.

Anyhow, the point is to win games, not collect fancy players that don't help the team win a lot of games. I got tired of Eppler after year two of sub .500 play. At this point, Eppler's added three more sub .500 play.

 

[AngelDuck]

Upton is on Eppler. That’s a terrible contract and the Angels just keep having more and more of those deals. No, I didn’t expect him to be this bad but I don’t think I loved the deal at the time either. We’re now on the hook for another 2 years at 25 million a season. He’s batting .095. It’s gotta be one of the worst deals in the league

The bottom line is it’s the pitching though. We aren’t just one arm away from being good. We’re like 6 or 7 arms. Not a good spot to be in. But it’s mostly because we don’t draft and develop our own talent. Dipoto and Eppler share that blame. Kuechel is someone he probably should have gotten in free agency. Not like it would have mattered a great deal though

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Arte's meddling hurt the team again at this point I hope they tank all the way it's a meaningless season anyways

 

[AngelDuck]

Arte's meddling hurt the team again at this point I hope they tank all the way it's a meaningless season anyways

It’s only meaningless if you’re a bad team. The contenders probably find it plenty meaningful.

but I agree getting a top 3 pick is likely the only good that can come of it for the halos at this point

 

[Deuce22]

Angel fans can argue DiPoto v. Eppler forever, but the fact is that if the owner won't let the GM he hires do his job without interference, things will never change. Bringing in LaRussa to "assist" Eppler is a joke. I'm not in either camp, but the contracts that have been handed out plus the neglect of developing pitching has resulted in what the Angels are now.

 

[OCSportsfan]

It takes a while to build a pitching staff, but Eppler has not drafted one high enough (takes position players) or found a gem in late rounds. He finally got one last year and I hope we get a top five pick this year and he gets another one. Heaney, Canning are both quality young pitchers and Teheran and Bundy are good veterans. With Ohtani, i really thought we would have a middle of the road staff this year and make the playoffs.

But this poor year gives us another few good picks next year, and personally I would trade what you could, to get young pitchers, or more draft picks. You have 5 great years for Trout, Ohtani and Rendon, so it may be worth it to trade Adell for a top line young pitcher(say around age 21-23 with top end potential). Adding him to Detmers and this years pick could give you the top three starters in 3 years. I think Adell is easier to replace than not having a top end pitcher (if that is what we would get in trade). Marsh will be in the MLB next year and can fill the outfield with Goodwin and Trout.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

Adell will likely be a star. Trout wasn't exactly great in his first year as a call up.
Trading Adell is like trading Zegras.
Would rather move Marsh.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Upton is on Eppler. That’s a terrible contract and the Angels just keep having more and more of those deals. No, I didn’t expect him to be this bad but I don’t think I loved the deal at the time either. We’re now on the hook for another 2 years at 25 million a season. He’s batting .095. It’s gotta be one of the worst deals in the league

The bottom line is it’s the pitching though. We aren’t just one arm away from being good. We’re like 6 or 7 arms. Not a good spot to be in. But it’s mostly because we don’t draft and develop our own talent. Dipoto and Eppler share that blame. Kuechel is someone he probably should have gotten in free agency. Not like it would have mattered a great deal though

I'm perplexed with the lumping of Dipoto with Eppler, especially when you're citing the lack of pitching. How do you use facts in your first paragraph and stray away from it in your second paragraph?

Angels
Year	GM	PCT	Run Scored	Runs Allowed	Diff
2012	DiPoto	0.549	767	699	68
2013	DiPoto	0.481	733	737	-4
2014	DiPoto	0.605	773	630	143
2015	DiPoto	0.525	661	675	-14
2016	Eppler	0.457	717	727	-10
2017	Eppler	0.494	710	709	1
2018	Eppler	0.494	721	722	-1
2019	Eppler	0.444	769	868	-99
2020	Eppler	0.321	127	157	-30

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The 2020 recording is of Aug 22, 2020. With a record of 9-19 in a 60 game shortened season. At this current pace, the Angels are set to give up over 908 runs allowed when compared to 162 game regular season.

Under Dipoto, the team allowed over 700 runs once in four seasons. That's the only season the Angels finished below .500. That's the season where Arte chose OF Hamilton than retain P Greinke's services, where Dipoto had to scramble to find pitching pieces fast as Dipoto was concentrating on ace pitching Greinke, but Arte wanted slugging Hamilton.

The Angels went to the playoffs in 2014. In 2015, Hamilton was let go from the organization. Despite the lack of hitting in 2015, the Angels were one game away from a wild card spot and three games away from winning the AL West.

Now, onto Eppler. There was a change in direction in team building philosophy. One of the first moves Eppler made was to trade away 2014's first round pick, P Sean Newcomb for defensive wiz Simba. While that was a great trade for the Angels, it was also foreshadowing that we were trading away our philosophy of not addressing the pitching situation.

Under Eppler, the Angels have never prevented under 700 runs. The Angels will surpass that amount when compared to a regular season with 162 games, which I denoted earlier at 908 runs allowed.

So, please, can we stop with the revisionist history and agenda that Dipoto didn't set up the Angels well? You continue this narrative, especially with the whole ".500" doesn't mean much because we don't know how close a team is to qualifying. Yet, the Angels have disproved your narrative with how close they were in a playoff spot under Dipoto. In 2012, the Angels were four games away from a wild card spot. If the Angels had Greinke for all of the 2012 season, then he would have made up for a few of those games as he played a total of 34 games, but only played 13 games with the Angels when we traded for Greinke.

Dipoto left Eppler with a winning program despite Arte hamstrung him on the roster as well as in the draft by taking away two, consecutive first round picks. Eppler has had five MLB drafts and has drafted a pitcher once in the first round this past season. Remember, Eppler's traded away pitchers to acquire positional players all the while. All those pitchers that Dipoto acquired.

It seems very facetious to blame Dipoto for where the team is now since he left the team as a winning program. Our farm system is weak after five seasons of drafting under Eppler. Attributing where the Angels are now at the MLB and farm system levels to Dipoto is a pathetic effort to mask how terribly the organization is run today.