Looking back at Crosby's career, is there any disappointment?

[daver]

As I said in my OP, I expected Crosby to become a modern day Gretzky, so he was disappointing in that regard.

But McDavid is a modern day Gretzky so far based on the fact that he has won two Art Rosses in his first four years; something Crosby could have done if not for an injury in his 3rd season?

I guess you are saying, like almost everyone else, him losing opportunities to win more trophies because of injuries is disappointing. We say the same thing about Mario and Orr.

The more interesting discussion, IMO, is what to make of him being on the same tier as Wayne and Mario in terms of his resume before being drafted and how that didn't translate into Wayne/Mario offensive domination.

I think he was as NHL-ready a prospect as we have ever seen both physically and mentally which meant he hit his prime almost from the get go as an 18 year old.

A change in the game in terms of scoring levels and possibly more emphasis on 2-way play are certainly worth discussing.

I think we can look back in 40 to 50 years with a bit more perspective on whether it is possible for a Wayne/Mario/Orr level player to dominate in a similar fashion.

 

[TheGuiminator]

But McDavid is a modern day Gretzky so far based on the fact that he has won two Art Rosses in his first four years; something Crosby could have done if not for an injury in his 3rd season?

I guess you are saying, like almost everyone else, him losing opportunities to win more trophies because of injuries is disappointing. We say the same thing about Mario and Orr.

The more interesting discussion, IMO, is what to make of him being on the same tier as Wayne and Mario in terms of his resume before being drafted and how that didn't translate into Wayne/Mario offensive domination.

I think he was as NHL-ready a prospect as we have ever seen both physically and mentally which meant he hit his prime almost from the get go as an 18 year old.

A change in the game in terms of scoring levels and possibly more emphasis on 2-way play are certainly worth discussing.

I think we can look back in 40 to 50 years with a bit more perspective on whether it is possible for a Wayne/Mario/Orr level player to dominate in a similar fashion.

McDavid wasn’t billed as the next Gretzky the way Crosby was, so he exceeds expectations by winning 2 AR in his first 4 years (to my point of view).

Crosby did miss some opportunities to win the Art Ross (2011 and 2013) but he also had many opportunities to win it and that’s what bothers me the most. There was absolutely no reason for him to not win in 2010, 2015, 2016 and even 2017. Those were all full seasons where he should have won.

Let’s say he wins an Art Ross or two during those years, it would have compensated for the other times he couldn’t win it due to injuries (2011 and 2013). But instead, he didn’t win a single one, so it’s alot of seasons with no scoring titles, make it even more disappointing

 

[FinProspects]

If we exclude all the injury-related things: There are couple of seasons where he had the chance to run away with the scoring title, for example 16-17:
Sid missed the first six games of the season after being MVP in WHC.

By February 8th it looked like this:
Sid 45 games 30+30=60
Connor 55 games 18+42=60

Sid having 3-4 games more left to play vs Connor, and there were some of the worst teams in the league during the week. Edm had like 1 game on that week. A perfect opportunity to run away with the Art, after being quite clearly the best player in that season. But something happened, and it had happened before, or actally nothing happened. Sid scored 1 point in that 4 games or something and simply could not take the advantage to Connor.

With 11 games remaining Sid and Connor were tied at 80 points. Sid scored 9 points in the last 11, Connor scored 20.

So this kind of stuff has been really disappointing.

 

[Midnight Judges]

To me, there is no way you could say Crosby is a disappointment. He's a top 10 player of all time IMO even if he retired today. I don't think it is possible to stand out in today's NHL the way a player could in the 70s, 80s, or even the 90s, so the folks expecting that simply aren't in tune with the changes to the talent pool.

That said, those of you who are compelled to pretend he's been great (or even good) at defense or exaggerate and extrapolate his career in other ways must be at least partially disappointed. Unless you think Sid's actual accomplishments are insufficient, there is no need for it.

 

[daver]

If we exclude all the injury-related things: There are couple of seasons where he had the chance to run away with the scoring title, for example 16-17:
Sid missed the first six games of the season after being MVP in WHC.

By February 8th it looked like this:
Sid 45 games 30+30=60
Connor 55 games 18+42=60

Sid having 3-4 games more left to play vs Connor, and there were some of the worst teams in the league during the week. Edm had like 1 game on that week. A perfect opportunity to run away with the Art, after being quite clearly the best player in that season. But something happened, and it had happened before, or actally nothing happened. Sid scored 1 point in that 4 games or something and simply could not take the advantage to Connor.

With 11 games remaining Sid and Connor were tied at 80 points. Sid scored 9 points in the last 11, Connor scored 20.

So this kind of stuff has been really disappointing.

At what point does winning, and contributing the most to your team winning, trump all? Do we really believe that Crosby was less of a player because he couldn't give a shit about the last few games of the 16/17 regular season?

If these things are a disappointment, then certainly his championship resume met or exceeded expectations.

 

[daver]

McDavid wasn’t billed as the next Gretzky the way Crosby was, so he exceeds expectations by winning 2 AR in his first 4 years (to my point of view).

He was billed as the next Crosby, or even better by some, which makes sense as billing Crosby as the next Wayne didn't work out.

We need to question the purpose of the OP in the history section as all it is doing is opening the door to strawman-like opinions.

 

[Voight]

McDavid wasn’t billed as the next Gretzky the way Crosby was, so he exceeds expectations by winning 2 AR in his first 4 years (to my point of view).

Crosby did miss some opportunities to win the Art Ross (2011 and 2013) but he also had many opportunities to win it and that’s what bothers me the most. There was absolutely no reason for him to not win in 2010, 2015, 2016 and even 2017. Those were all full seasons where he should have won.

Let’s say he wins an Art Ross or two during those years, it would have compensated for the other times he couldn’t win it due to injuries (2011 and 2013). But instead, he didn’t win a single one, so it’s alot of seasons with no scoring titles, make it even more disappointing

Jamie Benn and Henrik Sedin are fine players, but it certainly does not look great that Sid lost Art Ross' to them.

 

[bobholly39]

At what point does winning, and contributing the most to your team winning, trump all? Do we really believe that Crosby was less of a player because he couldn't give a **** about the last few games of the 16/17 regular season?

If these things are a disappointment, then certainly his championship resume met or exceeded expectations.

I don't think anyone - not even the biggest Crosby haters - would disagree with the idea that Crosby's championship resume has exceeded expectations. He's won everything, multiple times over, and even though some may critique certain individual runs as not being as strong as other smythe winners (ie 2016) - there's no question that Crosby played a big role in all of his team's victories. He has one of the winningest resumes in hockey history - easily top 5 imo, when you adjust for era.

At what point does this trump all? I dunno, hard to say. I mean - it doesn't. Art Rosses, and harts, still matter a lot. If McDavid ends up with 6 ross/harts and only 1 cup - there could be a very strong case to supplant Crosby, it just depends.

Also - I know i'm the one always saying it - but it's hard to prove whether this is an actual choice/decision by Crosby or just a way of interpreting results. Did he consciously let-up at the end of 2016-2017 to be fresh for playoffs, and then turn it on come playoff times? Looking at stats it certainly looks that way. Same thing during the 2018 season, and probably a few other examples in his career. But maybe it's just a way of trying to put a positive spin on things. Maybe the reality is simply that he went on a cold streak to finish the 2017 season, and then rebound come playoff time, vs him purposefully taking the "foot of the gas" to concentrate on playoff success. The 2015 ross jumps out too - last game of the season, playing the by far worst place Buffalo sabres, tied for ross lead - instead of going all-out to score points, he gets shutout. Was he just playing "safe" to be ready/healthy for playoffs, or was it simply a bad game?

Only Crosby can say for sure. And even then - some of this may be subconscious actions, vs actively "trying less".

 

[daver]

At what point does this trump all? I dunno, hard to say. I mean - it doesn't. Art Rosses, and harts, still matter a lot. If McDavid ends up with 6 ross/harts and only 1 cup - there could be a very strong case to supplant Crosby, it just depends.

This is specific to individual regular seasons, notably 16/17, where it was "disappointing" he couldn't close the deal on the Art Ross. He, and the team, had much bigger fish to fry than individual accomplishments.

I am not advocating that his championship resume should be the prime indicator for his overall rating; it is certainly something that should separate him from almost all of his peers which is, IMO, down to two (Hull and Beliveau).

 

[bobholly39]

This is specific to individual regular seasons, notably 16/17, where it was "disappointing" he couldn't close the deal on the Art Ross. He, and the team, had much bigger fish to fry than individual accomplishments.

I am not advocating that his championship resume should be the prime indicator for his overall rating; it is certainly something that should separate him from almost all of his peers which is, IMO, down to two (Hull and Beliveau).

Beliveau is one of the few players who has Crosby in his rearview mirror when it comes to championship resume, so that's a bad example.

As to your specific question - it comes down to the 3rd paragraph of my post above. If one could say for sure Crosby purposefully "took the foot off the gas" to concentrate on playoffs, sure, maybe it trumps all in 2017. But i don't think we can say this for sure. It might have simply been a bad stretch too. So it's a grey area.

 

[FinProspects]

At what point does winning, and contributing the most to your team winning, trump all? Do we really believe that Crosby was less of a player because he couldn't give a **** about the last few games of the 16/17 regular season?

If these things are a disappointment, then certainly his championship resume met or exceeded expectations.

What Im saying that stuff like this has happened couple of times, not just 16/17. And it wasnt the last few games. It was middle in the season. Lets be frank: Sid definately cares about individual stuff as well, so to say that after 40ish games he was getting prepared for playoffs etc..dont know about that.

Maybe he was exhausted due to long playoff run in 16,Whc etc. But I think he would have needed one more Art/Hart after 2014 to have more convincing case for #5 spot all time. In the end, he had his chances in 2015 and 2017 and could not deliver.

 

[daver]

Beliveau is one of the few players who has Crosby in his rearview mirror when it comes to championship resume, so that's a bad example.

I meant he looks good vs. his Top Tenish peers like Jagr, Hull etc.. but now that peer group is getting smaller and smaller.

I agree that Beliveau is ahead but not by much and not to the tune of the gap in their Cup wins, an argument that some put forth. If Crosby clearly surpasses Beliveau's regular season resume, which is certainly a possibility, that should be enough to move him ahead of Beliveau.

 

[daver]

What Im saying that stuff like this has happened couple of times, not just 16/17. And it wasnt the last few games. It was middle in the season. Lets be frank: Sid definately cares about individual stuff as well, so to say that after 40ish games he was getting prepared for playoffs etc..dont know about that.

Maybe he was exhausted due to long playoff run in 16,Whc etc. But I think he would have needed one more Art/Hart after 2014 to have more convincing case for #5 spot all time. In the end, he had his chances in 2015 and 2017 and could not deliver.

2015 could have been a shoe-in but he was clearly was affected by a viral illness in December. It is almost scripted how he has missed opportunities to win more Trophies.

But here we are talking about one game in 2015 being the reason he doesn't have a more convincing case for #5 all-time. Seriously?

It baffles me how Mario and Orr seemingly get complete passes for partial seasons/partial careers while Crosby's is put under such an intense microscope.

 

[daver]

By the end of his career, Crosby may very well have the 5th least Disappointing Career in hockey history.

 

[scott clam]

Jamie Benn and Henrik Sedin are fine players, but it certainly does not look great that Sid lost Art Ross' to them.

That was just a crap year for scorers in general. That Ovechkin was runner up to Price in Hart voting over other forwards, because of goals rather than total points, is telling.

Not saying that Ovechkin wasn't the best forward of the season, because I think he was...

 

[Voight]

That was just a crap year for scorers in general. That Ovechkin was runner up to Price in Hart voting over other forwards, because of goals rather than total points, is telling.

Not saying that Ovechkin wasn't the best forward of the season, because I think he was...

You're not wrong, but it doesn't look great for someone with his hype and expectations. Especially after the season he had the year before, where he easily won the scoring title and had arguably his best season.

 

[scott clam]

You're not wrong, but it doesn't look great for someone with his hype and expectations. Especially after the season he had the year before, where he easily won the scoring title and had arguably his best season.

That is true, but then remember it's classic Crosby all over again at the Worlds that spring.

 

[frisco]

To me the thing that is tough to stomach is Crosby having his career derailed by a dirty hit from a nothing player right in the midst of his best season. That is just hard to swallow. Ditto Cooke on Marc Savard. Kariya from Gary Suter. Brandon Manning and McDavid. Even Niskanen on Crosby in the 2017 playoffs.

My Best-Carey

 

[Video Nasty]

2015 could have been a shoe-in but he was clearly was affected by a viral illness in December. It is almost scripted how he has missed opportunities to win more Trophies.

But here we are talking about one game in 2015 being the reason he doesn't have a more convincing case for #5 all-time. Seriously?

It baffles me how Mario and Orr seemingly get complete passes for partial seasons/partial careers while Crosby's is put under such an intense microscope.

They get passes because they won more individual hardware and dominated more in less time.

Orr has the same number of Art Rosses as Crosby and he’s a defenseman. He put together his body of work in pretty much 9 seasons. 8 Norris trophies, 3 Harts and a Pearson, 2 Cups and 2 Smythes and even has the Calder for what it’s worth. He played 657 regular season games.

Lemieux played 12 seasons prior to the 2000 comeback and appeared in 690 regular season games.

He racked up 6 Art Rosses, 3 Harts, 4 Pearsons, 2 Cups and 2 Smythes...and for what it’s worth again, also has the Calder.

Crosby, for all his missed time, what ifs and could have/should have/would have is sitting at 960 games through 15 years. He might get up to about 985ish when he comes back this season.

He could very well play as many games as Lemieux and Orr combined played to build their legacies.

As many questions as we might have about Crosby, there’s simply less mystery and intrigue to his career. It’s not as affected by injuries, maladies and illness as those two and they still did more.

 

[Voight]

They get passes because they won more individual hardware and dominated more in less time.

Orr has the same number of Art Rosses as Crosby and he’s a defenseman. He put together his body of work in pretty much 9 seasons. 8 Norris trophies, 3 Harts and a Pearson, 2 Cups and 2 Smythes and even has the Calder for what it’s worth. He played 657 regular season games.

Lemieux played 12 seasons prior to the 2000 comeback and appeared in 690 regular season games.

He racked up 6 Art Rosses, 3 Harts, 4 Pearsons, 2 Cups and 2 Smythes...and for what it’s worth again, also has the Calder.

Crosby, for all his missed time, what ifs and could have/should have/would have is sitting at 960 games through 15 years. He might get up to about 985ish when he comes back this season.

He could very well play as many games as Lemieux and Orr combined played to build their legacies.

As many questions as we might have about Crosby, there’s simply less mystery and intrigue to his career. It’s not as affected by injuries, maladies and illness as those two and they still did more.

Exactly... especially with regards to Orr. Nobody gives him any credit for partial seasons, mainly because in his healthy seasons (well, ones where he played a good amount of games) he dominated and accomplished more than any other defenseman in history.

Likewise with Mario, he accomplished more than enough in his full (or close to full) seasons to make the partial seasons irrelevant in a way. He doesn't need credit for them as he still won 6 scoring titles, 3 Harts etc.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

If we exclude all the injury-related things: There are couple of seasons where he had the chance to run away with the scoring title, for example 16-17:
Sid missed the first six games of the season after being MVP in WHC.

By February 8th it looked like this:
Sid 45 games 30+30=60
Connor 55 games 18+42=60

Sid having 3-4 games more left to play vs Connor, and there were some of the worst teams in the league during the week. Edm had like 1 game on that week. A perfect opportunity to run away with the Art, after being quite clearly the best player in that season. But something happened, and it had happened before, or actally nothing happened. Sid scored 1 point in that 4 games or something and simply could not take the advantage to Connor.

With 11 games remaining Sid and Connor were tied at 80 points. Sid scored 9 points in the last 11, Connor scored 20.

So this kind of stuff has been really disappointing.

Yes but then one guy scored 27 points winning the pmvp. Those two smythes ease the pain.

 

[Big Phil]

Exactly... especially with regards to Orr. Nobody gives him any credit for partial seasons, mainly because in his healthy seasons (well, ones where he played a good amount of games) he dominated and accomplished more than any other defenseman in history.

Likewise with Mario, he accomplished more than enough in his full (or close to full) seasons to make the partial seasons irrelevant in a way. He doesn't need credit for them as he still won 6 scoring titles, 3 Harts etc.

I think that is the difference between Orr and Lemieux and someone - as great as he's been - like Crosby. A 60 game season and Lemieux still has the best season in the NHL. We've seen this before. 1992: 64 games Art Ross. 1993: 60 games, Hart, Art Ross. 1996: 70 games, Hart, Art Ross. That's pretty hard to duplicate. Crosby missing 25% of the season in 2013 in a lockout shortened year missed the Art Ross by 4 points. He was still clearly the best in the NHL that year but we know for sure that if Mario misses 25% of an NHL season in his prime he still wins the scoring title.

I don't know if this is something you can hang on Sid. That's pretty tough in any sport to duplicate. You have to be extra special to miss 25% of a season and still be better statistically than anyone else in the NHL.

 

[bobholly39]

I think that is the difference between Orr and Lemieux and someone - as great as he's been - like Crosby. A 60 game season and Lemieux still has the best season in the NHL. We've seen this before. 1992: 64 games Art Ross. 1993: 60 games, Hart, Art Ross. 1996: 70 games, Hart, Art Ross. That's pretty hard to duplicate. Crosby missing 25% of the season in 2013 in a lockout shortened year missed the Art Ross by 4 points. He was still clearly the best in the NHL that year but we know for sure that if Mario misses 25% of an NHL season in his prime he still wins the scoring title.

I don't know if this is something you can hang on Sid. That's pretty tough in any sport to duplicate. You have to be extra special to miss 25% of a season and still be better statistically than anyone else in the NHL.

That math isn't even accurate either. Or at least - it isn't representative of the player's true abilities.

Lemieux was nowhere near 100% during those partial seasons in the 90s. His point totals are actually lackluster. If he was playing at 100% ability for ~60 games - he'd have a much bigger lead on others. He could probably win a scoring championship in only ~50 games, or a couple of less in many years.

As for Crosby - you are correct. In his most dominating season, 2011 - he scored at 1.6PPG. Sedin won the art ross with 104 points. Scoring at that rate (assuming no change to pace) - Crosby would have needed 65 games to win the Ross. In 2012 with his pace (only 22 games though) - he also would have needed 65 games to win the Ross. If we extrapolate the 2013 season to a full 82 games, keeping St Louis and Crosby's paces the same, Crosby would have needed 66 games to win the Ross. Those are mighty impressive seasons he had - but the most he could realistically have missed to still win the ross would have been 15-20 games in any year.

Jagr famously won his with only 63 games in 2000. Of course - he only scored 96 points, with 2nd place at 94. Scoring rates weren't exactly the same in this season vs Crosby's, so hard to say how that compares, but probably in the same vicinity.

 

[Big Phil]

That math isn't even accurate either. Or at least - it isn't representative of the player's true abilities.

Lemieux was nowhere near 100% during those partial seasons in the 90s. His point totals are actually lackluster. If he was playing at 100% ability for ~60 games - he'd have a much bigger lead on others. He could probably win a scoring championship in only ~50 games, or a couple of less in many years.

As for Crosby - you are correct. In his most dominating season, 2011 - he scored at 1.6PPG. Sedin won the art ross with 104 points. Scoring at that rate (assuming no change to pace) - Crosby would have needed 65 games to win the Ross. In 2012 with his pace (only 22 games though) - he also would have needed 65 games to win the Ross. If we extrapolate the 2013 season to a full 82 games, keeping St Louis and Crosby's paces the same, Crosby would have needed 66 games to win the Ross. Those are mighty impressive seasons he had - but the most he could realistically have missed to still win the ross would have been 15-20 games in any year.

Jagr famously won his with only 63 games in 2000. Of course - he only scored 96 points, with 2nd place at 94. Scoring rates weren't exactly the same in this season vs Crosby's, so hard to say how that compares, but probably in the same vicinity.

Jagr in 2000 is a lot like Crosby in 2013. Just slightly better. Jagr actually did win the scoring title despite not a terribly competitive year for the scoring race (Bure and then Recchi were #2-3 in scoring). Crosby nearly did it in 2013 during a year that was a bit like 2000. That is about as good as any non-Gretzky/Lemieux year could get, but it still is not near Lemieux in 1993. You have a very competitive year in the scoring race and Lemieux still won the scoring race by 12 points despite playing just 60 games.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Frankly, the thing that hurts Crosby's legacy the most are Bylsma and Johnston.