Prospect Info: Logan Brown (C) Part 2

[DaveMatthew]

If the kid can't get it done in the AHL he has no business in the NHL IMO. I don't get posters demanding he gets an NHL shot simply because he was a 1st rounder 5 years ago. It sends the wrong message.

85 games in the AHL, 70 points.

Let's not act like he's done nothing.

And sends a bad message to who?

Tim Stutzle? Who was handed a roster spot at 18 (and rightfully so)? Or Brady Tkachuk? Who was also handed a roster spot at 18 (also rightfully so)?

Josh Norris scored over a pt/game in the AHL last season and that earned him a spot. But guess what? Logan Brown also scored over a pt/game last year.

Or are we worried about sending the wrong message to Mike Reilly, Braydon Coburn, Artem Anisimov, Chris Tierney, Erik Gudbranson, and even Evgeni Dadonov, who've been given carte blanche to play however poorly they want?

 

[SENStastic]

If the kid can't get it done in the AHL he has no business in the NHL IMO. I don't get posters demanding he gets an NHL shot simply because he was a 1st rounder 5 years ago. It sends the wrong message.

What are you talking about??

 

[Wondercarrot]

Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it - Winston Churchill

“I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes.”
- also Winston Churchill

though he was right in your case lol

 

[Korpse]

Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it - Winston Churchill

Should really be applied to expectations for unproven players.

 

[PlayersLtd]

If the kid can't get it done in the AHL he has no business in the NHL IMO. I don't get posters demanding he gets an NHL shot simply because he was a 1st rounder 5 years ago. It sends the wrong message.

This but it's not even about the message it sends it's that he hasn't earned it, period. If he hasn't earned it in the AHL what makes people think he will earn it in the NHL? You need to play within a coaches system and no one should in their right mind should have any confidence in Brown's ability to do that at the NHL level at this point.

The team is clearly saying "show us" and he isn't showing anything so why on earth would he be promoted?

In previous years Brown fell out of favour with the fan base for his compete level and inability to seize opportunities afforded to him, people had lost patience and he became one of our top tradable assets in discussions. Now the team shows a bit of tough love and these same fans seemingly have turned in favour of Brown and against the team for it. I don't understand.

 

[supsens]

85 games in the AHL, 70 points.

Let's not act like he's done nothing.

And sends a bad message to who?

Tim Stutzle? Who was handed a roster spot at 18 (and rightfully so)? Or Brady Tkachuk? Who was also handed a roster spot at 18 (also rightfully so)?

Josh Norris scored over a pt/game in the AHL last season and that earned him a spot. But guess what? Logan Brown also scored over a pt/game last year.

Or are we worried about sending the wrong message to Mike Reilly, Braydon Coburn, Artem Anisimov, Chris Tierney, Erik Gudbranson, and even Evgeni Dadonov, who've been given carte blanche to play however poorly they want?

Norris was a year younger and a rookie and did it for the entire year Logan put up good numbers for 25 games
came into camp and ran the teams star player.

 

[supsens]

Norris was a year younger and a rookie and did it for the entire year Logan put up good numbers for 25 games
came into camp and ran the teams star player.

Josh is pacing on a 47 point nhl pace Brown was on a 28 nhl pace the difference is fairly large

 

[DaveMatthew]

This but it's not even about the message it sends it's that he hasn't earned it, period. If he hasn't earned it in the AHL what makes people think he will earn it in the NHL? You need to play within a coaches system and no one should in their right mind should have any confidence in Brown's ability to do that at the NHL level at this point. What happens when he

The team is clearly saying "show us" and he isn't showing anything so why on earth would he be promoted?

In previous years Brown fell out of favour with the fan base for his compete level and inability to seize opportunities afforded to him, people had lost patience and he became one of our top tradable assets in discussions. Now the team shows a bit of tough love and these same fans seemingly have turned in favour of Brown and against the team for it. I don't understand.

If Logan Brown was trying to crack a competitive team that had veterans who were humming and contributing, then sure, the fans would be fine with some tough love.

When Spezza was trying to crack the roster, for example, you could make the case that you couldn't just remove players who were playing well on a top-5 NHL team to make room for him.

But we're not a top-5 team. We're a bottom-3 team. We've had guys like Anisimov, Stepan and Tierney going out there, night after night, and laying eggs.

So yeah, Brown may not have "earned" it. But neither have any of those guys. And at least with Brown, there's potential future upside. Even if there's only a 10% chance he delivers on that upside, it makes playing him more worthwhile than playing Anisimov. We're going to lose either way, so there's zero risk.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

might be something to this

 

[Artanis]

Honestly sounds like to me he pissed off Dorion with his agents comments last year, and they're waiting to trade him. Why else wouldn't you just let him play with Batherson, Norris etc.

 

[DaveMatthew]

might be something to this

The narrative that "you should dominate the AHL before getting an NHL spot" is very odd.

There are countless examples of players who didn't dominate the NHL before making the jump. And there are just as many players who were great in the AHL but couldn't translate it to the NHL.

At some point, you just have to give a player a chance even if he doesn't "deserve it" to see what he has. Why not do it in a lost season when the AHL is a logistical mess anyway?

It'd be one thing if you didn't want to disrupt a good team, or if you wanted a prospect to go on a playoff run in the A... but neither is true here.

 

[Korpse]

The narrative that "you should dominate the AHL before getting an NHL spot" is very odd.

Is this the narrative with Logan Brown?

I don't think the organization needs to see big numbers from him, they know how talented the kid is, that's not what has held him back. It's his lack of engagement. The first two games were nobody's fault except his own, it was an embarrassing effort. He's taken a step in the right direction over these past three games but I think he has to show more.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Is this the narrative with Logan Brown?

I don't think the organization needs to see big numbers from him, they know how talented the kid is, that's not what has held him back. It's his lack of engagement. The first two games were nobody's fault except his own, it was an embarrassing effort. He's taken a step in the right direction over these past three games but I think he has to show more.

Logan Brown simply isn't a player that's going to look like an energizer bunny out there. That's not how he plays the game, and never has, at any level. It's also not how he's effective.

If that was the expectation, Dorion should never have used an 11th overall pick on him.

You'd get a much better and more accurate view of Brown if he was playing with more talented players in a more structured game. Ask any players: often times, playing in the NHL is easier than the AHL for skilled guys, since there aren't nearly as many players running around with no idea where they're supposed to be.

Give him 25 games, regardless of what he's shown to date, and decide whether he's part of the future or not.

Keeping him in the AHL, at this point, serves no purpose. He may very well suck in the NHL. We'll see. But at least if he plays, we'll know and can make a decision.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

If they trade him before giving him a look this year in the NHL, then they just add to the narrative that they (Dorion and co.) are incompetent. Show the fans that this guy can't crack it for whatever reason, so that we can have something to back our reasons for trading him...

 

[aragorn]

might be something to this

Where have we heard this before that some players are better in the NHL than in the AHL & looking at Belleville's team this yr would be a good example of this where L. Brown could be much more impactful at the NHL level this yr? If this team were to add Formenton, L. Brown & Pinto to this roster & get rid of Anisimov, Tierny & Dadonov I think would improve the team since these guys aren't producing anything.

QUOTE="Artanis, post: 176367767, member: 141705"]Honestly sounds like to me he pissed off Dorion with his agents comments last year, and they're waiting to trade him. Why else wouldn't you just let him play with Batherson, Norris etc.[/QUOTE]

I have been wondering about this for a while too, it could be the organization showing him who is boss & making an example of him so other prospects know their place & who is in charge. Can't have a rebellion or revolution can we?

 

[Korpse]

Logan Brown simply isn't a player that's going to look like an energizer bunny out there. That's not how he plays the game, and never has, at any level. It's also not how he's effective.

If that was the expectation, Dorion should never have used an 11th overall pick on him.

You'd get a much better and more accurate view of Brown if he was playing with more talented players in a more structured game. Ask any players: often times, playing in the NHL is easier than the AHL for skilled guys, since there aren't nearly as many players running around with no idea where they're supposed to be.

Give him 25 games, regardless of what he's shown to date, and decide whether he's part of the future or not.

Keeping him in the AHL, at this point, serves no purpose. He may very well suck in the NHL. We'll see. But at least if he plays, we'll know and can make a decision.

I agree he isn't a high motor player, he isn't going to dig pucks out of battles. I don't think anyone expects him to be that type of player. That said, there were some things in his game during the first two games that's simply unacceptable. Had he played like he cared, he would be with the NHL team already. The opportunity is there, the organization has made that clear on two different instances this short season. He has to play like he wants to be there. The big circles behind the play because you don't get the puck isn't going to get you to the NHL.

 

[Big Muddy]

“I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes.”
- also Winston Churchill

though he was right in your case lol

Would it have helped if I said the quote was from George Santanya (who might be the original person who said this)? LOL.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Had he played like he cared, he would be with the NHL team already. The opportunity is there, the organization has made that clear on two different instances this short season. He has to play like he wants to be there.

This is a very subjective criticism, though. What does "playing like he cares" look like?

On numerous occasions this year, Stepan, Anisimov, Tierney, Dadonov, etc. have had poor back-checks, have stopped moving their feet in the defensive zone, or have made other poor decisions.

But I don't think it's because they don't care. I think it's because they're flawed players with multiple holes in their games. Some of those holes are due to skill, some are due to age.

The same can be said for Brown. His game has holes. We have to decide whether we're willing to live with them and have him in our future plans, or not. We can work with him to improve them, but he'll likely always have holes.

Instead, though, with Brown, people talk about how he has to "want it"? What does that even mean?

I'd rather just live with the fact that Brown is going to have defensive lapses, but give him a shot because of the value he could bring in the offensive end, and on the PP.

We do the same thing with Mike Reilly, who's horrendous defensively. But once in a while, he makes a good transition play, and for that, we keep him on the roster.

We could do the same with Brown.

 

[Agent Zub]

Am I misremembering or didn't Brown actually look decent defensively when he was playing in the NHL?

Very raw sure but it's not someone who looked like a liability.

 

[Senscore]

“I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes.”
- also Winston Churchill

though he was right in your case lol

Not going to defend everything Winston did but in this case he was specifically referring to lachrymatory gas, aka tear gas.

 

[Korpse]

This is a very subjective criticism, though. What does "playing like he cares" look like?

On numerous occasions this year, Stepan, Anisimov, Tierney, Dadonov, etc. have had poor back-checks, have stopped moving their feet in the defensive zone, or have made other poor decisions.

But I don't think it's because they don't care. I think it's because they're flawed players with multiple holes in their games. Some of those holes are due to skill, some are due to age.

The same can be said for Brown. His game has holes. We have to decide whether we're willing to live with them and have him in our future plans, or not. We can work with him to improve them, but he'll likely always have holes.

Instead, though, with Brown, people talk about how he has to "want it"? What does that even mean?

I'd rather just live with the fact that Brown is going to have defensive lapses, but give him a shot because of the value he could bring in the offensive end, and on the PP.

We do the same thing with Mike Reilly, who's horrendous defensively. But once in a while, he makes a good transition play, and for that, we keep him on the roster.

We could do the same with Brown.

Sure, it's subjective but I suggest you watch his games in Belleville. I've seen quite a bit of Logan Brown in Belleville, the good and bad. I've been an advocate for him being in the NHL in the past but what he showed in those first two games was inexcusable. More times than not it felt like Belleville was shorthanded when he was on the ice. The puck would move up the ice and he would circle behind the play, and when the puck would inevitably head back towards the Belleville net he would waive at the player and do another big loop when they flew by his half assed attempt.

His coach went on the radio this week and said they told Logan that they will "give him a pass" for those two games. He had an opportunity then, play four games and when the team returned to Ontario he could be with the team. His coach was on the radio this week and said that they told Logan they would "give him a pass" for the first two games, it was bad. It wasn't for a lack of ability, he can be a very effective player at that level despite his faults. He was sulking. Now he has another chance to do the same, so yes he has to show he wants it, he has to show he wants to contribute.

Nobody expects him to go out there and win every battle or be hard on the forecheck but they expect him to support the play, put himself in good spots on the ice and not give opponents free passes.

 

[PlayersLtd]

If Logan Brown was trying to crack a competitive team that had veterans who were humming and contributing, then sure, the fans would be fine with some tough love.

When Spezza was trying to crack the roster, for example, you could make the case that you couldn't just remove players who were playing well on a top-5 NHL team to make room for him.

But we're not a top-5 team. We're a bottom-3 team. We've had guys like Anisimov, Stepan and Tierney going out there, night after night, and laying eggs.

So yeah, Brown may not have "earned" it. But neither have any of those guys. And at least with Brown, there's potential future upside. Even if there's only a 10% chance he delivers on that upside, it makes playing him more worthwhile than playing Anisimov. We're going to lose either way, so there's zero risk.

Regardless of who is in the lineup you still need to demonstrate a level of work ethic that is worth rewarding. For all we know it could be a matter of Dorion or DJ wanting to see something, anything to show that he is putting in the work and he'll be the next to get a crack, but that isn't happening. By the sounds of his training camp and early games in Belleville he is giving the team no choice but to keep him down. Hopefully that changes.

As far as Stepan, Tierney and Anisimov go when a team is losing it's important at least to have a culture of hard work and respect for the process. There's a fine line between losing and a completely toxic and demoralizing environment. We have been toeing that line for two + years now. If you're actively trying to manage that, who would you rather- a vet known for their work ethic and ability to play within a system, or the 1 dimensional kid with work ethic problems?

One could argue that a fragile lineup like ours is in fact the last place a guy like Brown should be given his shot.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Regardless of who is in the lineup you still need to demonstrate a level of work ethic that is worth rewarding. For all we know it could be a matter of Dorion or DJ wanting to see something, anything to show that he is putting in the work and he'll be the next to get a crack, but that isn't happening. By the sounds of his training camp and early games in Belleville he is giving the team no choice but to keep him down. Hopefully that changes.

As far as Stepan, Tierney and Anisimov go when a team is losing it's important at least to have a culture of hard work and respect for the process. There's a fine line between losing and a completely toxic and demoralizing environment. We have been toeing that line for two + years now. If you're actively trying to manage that, who would you rather- a vet known for their work ethic and ability to play within a system, or the 1 dimensional kid with work ethic problems?

One could argue that a fragile lineup like ours is in fact the last place a guy like Brown should be given his shot.

I would argue that the least fragile part of our lineup is our young players - Tkachuk, Stützle, Batherson and Norris. I have zero concerns that they'd be affected negatively by having Brown in the lineup. If anything, he'd benefit from being around them.

I also think we're past the point of Dorion and Smith needing to show how much they value hard work. That's all they've talked about for the last 6 months. Message delivered - we know, the players know.

Logan Brown was drafted 5 years ago. We're almost halfway through this season - we have 30 games left - and in those 30 games, one way or another, we have to make a decision on him.

My personal opinion? Based on what he's shown, he won't be an NHL player here. But I wouldn't be confident making that decision without seeing him play at least 20-30 games, in a row, at the NHL level. Maybe he'll surprise everyone and stick. Maybe not. But we need to know.

So I'm not suggesting that Brown should play because he deserves it. I'm suggesting that Brown should play because it's prudent for the organization to evaluate him at the NHL level, one last time, before cutting ties. Even if it's just to confirm what DJ and Dorion suspect - that he can't cut it - he should be playing.

 

[Cosmix]

“I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes.”
- also Winston Churchill

though he was right in your case lol

Winston liked being a part of the ruling class.

 

[PlayersLtd]

I would argue that the least fragile part of our lineup is our young players - Tkachuk, Stützle, Batherson and Norris. I have zero concerns that they'd be affected negatively by having Brown in the lineup. If anything, he'd benefit from being around them.

I also think we're past the point of Dorion and Smith needing to show how much they value hard work. That's all they've talked about for the last 6 months. Message delivered - we know, the players know.

Logan Brown was drafted 5 years ago. We're almost halfway through this season - we have 30 games left - and in those 30 games, one way or another, we have to make a decision on him.

My personal opinion? Based on what he's shown, he won't be an NHL player here. But I wouldn't be confident making that decision without seeing him play at least 20-30 games, in a row, at the NHL level. Maybe he'll surprise everyone and stick. Maybe not. But we need to know.

So I'm not suggesting that Brown should play because he deserves it. I'm suggesting that Brown should play because it's prudent for the organization to evaluate him at the NHL level, one last time, before cutting ties. Even if it's just to confirm what DJ and Dorion suspect - that he can't cut it - he should be playing.

That's sensible and I'm certain the team shares that plan (although it still comes with the caveat that he can't dog it in the AHL and make management look bad, further to my point that he is making it impossible for them to call him up).

Until that happens however I for one will put the onus on Brown to play his way on instead of complaining about Dorion/DJ on things that are more complicated than we tend to think.