Lockout III: So close, and yet so far (Moderated: see post #295)

[Sydor25]

I find it interesting that despite the NHL going to the "take it or leave it" well on multiple occasions that the players still deserve blame for continuing to go for the third unspoken option. The NHL's strategy has been clear, frame their offer as the best they can do, get mad when it's not accepted, stomp around maybe say "disappointed" a few hundred times and then get back to negotiating.

You have problem with the NHL using the same negotiating tactic as the NHLPA?

Do you really believe that Don Fehr thought the NHL was going to be receptive to their offer when he had his first press conference? Daly told Fehr before he left the meeting (before the 1st Fehr press conference) that, "I honestly don’t know where we go from here." Does that sound like the sides are close to a deal? Why would Don say that the sides were close to a deal when he knew for a fact that it wasn't? Could it be for PR with the fans? Remember, the players just "want to play".

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

Who said I have a problem with it? I'm suggesting everyone else seems to have a problem with it.

 

[Sydor25]

Who said I have a problem with it? I'm suggesting everyone else seems to have a problem with it.

Okay. Thanks for the clarity.

Both sides are to be blamed for where they are at, I just wish the NHLPA would allow a vote for the NHL's last offer. Prove to the world that they are united and then they could crush the owners. I think the NHLPA already knows what the result of the vote would be and the leadership group wouldn't be happy with it.

 

[Steve]

Okay. Thanks for the clarity.

Both sides are to be blamed for where they are at, I just wish the NHLPA would allow a vote for the NHL's last offer. Prove to the world that they are united and then they could crush the owners. I think the NHLPA already knows what the result of the vote would be and the leadership group wouldn't be happy with it.

Just to argue this, I believe if the NHL had the chance to vote on the PA's offer, we would probably have hockey also. Just my opinion, it's a much better deal for the owners than they had 12 months ago. I think both sides would accept each other offers, however, both the PA and NHL leadership believe there is more they can get.

 

[Steve]

You have problem with the NHL using the same negotiating tactic as the NHLPA?

Do you really believe that Don Fehr thought the NHL was going to be receptive to their offer when he had his first press conference? Daly told Fehr before he left the meeting (before the 1st Fehr press conference) that, "I honestly don’t know where we go from here." Does that sound like the sides are close to a deal? Why would Don say that the sides were close to a deal when he knew for a fact that it wasn't? Could it be for PR with the fans? Remember, the players just "want to play".

For sure! They are both playing the same game here. Do I think Fehr thought it would be accepted? no. Are they closer today than they were 4 days ago, without a doubt. Although the players just "want to play". Keep in mind "nobody wants to make a deal and play hockey more than I do" - Bettman

Owners just want Fehr out b/c he's driving them nuts, but he's getting more and more back for the players. His tactics are questionable, no doubt, but the players are giving up less than they were before. It's working, just too slowly IMO. When there is a drop dead date and a "real" best offer, this will end. Not one minute before that IMO.

 

[Pepper]

Just to argue this, I believe if the NHL had the chance to vote on the PA's offer, we would probably have hockey also. Just my opinion, it's a much better deal for the owners than they had 12 months ago. I think both sides would accept each other offers, however, both the PA and NHL leadership believe there is more they can get.

It takes only one owner to call for a vote, it hasn't happened.


How many players does it take to have a full PA vote? Hamrlik already called for it, where's the vote?

 

[Steve]

It takes only one owner to call for a vote, it hasn't happened.


How many players does it take to have a full PA vote? Hamrlik already called for it, where's the vote?

Doesn't Bettman have to call a vote and get 7 people to agree? My understanding is that's how it worked, I could very well be wrong. That being said, I'm sure TML, NYR and Habs would take pretty much any deal. Not saying they should, if they can get more, then they owe it to the other owners to keep quiet. Similarly, Hamrlik should do the same, or perhaps be somewhat active before questioning.

EDIT - also, owners aren't permitted to question openly. Something that I believe is a great strategy from the NHL so we don't know what's going on behind closed doors.

 

[Sydor25]

Just to argue this, I believe if the NHL had the chance to vote on the PA's offer, we would probably have hockey also. Just my opinion, it's a much better deal for the owners than they had 12 months ago. I think both sides would accept each other offers, however, both the PA and NHL leadership believe there is more they can get.

The NHL had the owner that stands to lose the most money (profit and revenue) in the room with the players and he left upset (after he said he would stay until it was done). Do you really think he would vote for the NHLPA's offer? I believe that the moderate owners are now behind Bettman. Remember that the NHLPA added escrow limits to their latest offer and the NHL has already said no to escrow limits. Why would you need escrow limits if the NHLPA was already getting $300 million outside of their share?

Are the moderate players behind the NHLPA leadership group? I'm not so sure.

 

[atomic]

Just to argue this, I believe if the NHL had the chance to vote on the PA's offer, we would probably have hockey also. Just my opinion, it's a much better deal for the owners than they had 12 months ago. I think both sides would accept each other offers, however, both the PA and NHL leadership believe there is more they can get.

The players offer is only for 6 years. I would rather lose a season and have a 10 year deal than to have the potential to miss another season in 6 years.

The players are in the wrong. Let them vote on the owner's last proposal... I am sure it would pass in a landslide. Even the guys playing in europe are making a fraction of their NHL salaries. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the owners last offer is a lot better than missing an entire season. As for the owners most of them are losing money when they play so I feel they are much more likely to vote down the bad offer from the players.

 

[Sydor25]

Doesn't Bettman have to call a vote and get 7 people to agree? My understanding is that's how it worked, I could very well be wrong. That being said, I'm sure TML, NYR and Habs would take pretty much any deal. Not saying they should, if they can get more, then they owe it to the other owners to keep quiet. Similarly, Hamrlik should do the same, or perhaps be somewhat active before questioning.

EDIT - also, owners aren't permitted to question openly. Something that I believe is a great strategy from the NHL so we don't know what's going on behind closed doors.

If Bettman doesn't approve of the NHLPA proposal, then it would take 22 "yes" votes to pass. If Bettman doesn't give an opinion or approves the NHLPA proposal, then a simple majority would pass.

I don't agree that Toronto would take any deal. The owner just left the negotiations "disillusioned".

"I am very disappointed and disillusioned. Had I not experienced this process myself, I might not have believed it. Like all hockey fans, I am hopeful this situation can be resolved as soon as possible. I miss our game."

That doesn't sound like a man ready to vote "yes" on the NHLPA's proposal.

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

No, that sounds like a guy who got involved with decent intentions but turned shill when asked. Those letters, while perhaps mostly accurate, were clearly written and released with purpose.

 

[Steve]

I don't agree that Toronto would take any deal. The owner just left the negotiations "disillusioned".

That doesn't sound like a man ready to vote "yes" on the NHLPA's proposal.

Would this have made it out to the paper if it was "for the love of god, we print money, I don't really care, give me hockey"? lol. They are silenced by the NHL, we don't know what's really going on. This is why it's so frustrating. League needs to move on their 5yr contracts, PA should give them (or at least the fans) 8-10yrs for a CBA and surely they can workout the last back diving issue. It seems to be so close it's insane. I do believe, however, the league is preoccupied with Fehr and should simply ignore and focus their time on a deal rather than keeping him out the room.

EDIT - Didn't TML make $100M last year or something?

 

[CerebralGenesis]

They don't want a vote because they know if the players voted, this game would be over. Can't have that when it's so early and so much press is left to milk.

 

[Steve]

They don't want a vote because they know if the players voted, this game would be over. Can't have that when it's so early and so much press is left to milk.

You're probably correct, this is why both sides have negotiating teams. Supposedly for the greater good of their respective sides.

 

[Pepper]

Doesn't Bettman have to call a vote and get 7 people to agree? My understanding is that's how it worked, I could very well be wrong. That being said, I'm sure TML, NYR and Habs would take pretty much any deal. Not saying they should, if they can get more, then they owe it to the other owners to keep quiet. Similarly, Hamrlik should do the same, or perhaps be somewhat active before questioning.

EDIT - also, owners aren't permitted to question openly. Something that I believe is a great strategy from the NHL so we don't know what's going on behind closed doors.

Any owner can call for a vote in BoG. Back in october there was a chance to vote but nobody called for it. Bettman has the support of all 30 owners.

What about the NHLPA? When will we see full PA vote?

 

[Steve]

Any owner can call for a vote in BoG. Back in october there was a chance to vote but nobody called for it. Bettman has the support of all 30 owners.

What about the NHLPA? When will we see full PA vote?

I believe you will see a vote when Bettman/NHL put their best foot forward or issue a drop dead date. The Players aren't negotiators, they brought in Fehr to fight a battle for them. It seems the players, at least most of the vocal ones, back him. I'm not saying it shouldn't or should be a vote, I'm just happy it's not my call. Lol.

That being said, players shouldn't have to waive the white flag when their ownership request more money and better terms. Both sides need to table their best offers and be willing to walk away - THIS is when we will get a vote and inturn a deal.

EDIT - Isn't it kind of odd that every NHL vote seems to be "unanimous" but owners aren't allowed to participate or discuss it? I think both sides are sweating a little bit, as they should.

 

[Melrose Munch]

You're wrong. The only problem in the NHL is player costs, i.e. player salaries. NHL is currently paying too much money to players and that has to change.

I'm not sure what you mean with NBA economics but I can tell you that with lower player costs, NHL could expand much further than the current 30 teams.

40 teams right?

 

[Gert B Frobe]

I just don't get why these guys get all butthurt about everything. They are in business negotiations - and should keep their emotions to themselves. But they get all heated up, storm out, pout and stomp their feet. The players call the owners and Bettman idiots which doesn't help the situation and everybody is playing games using the media. Just negotiate like it's a business for God's sake. They both must realize that every day they're not playing is money lost - money both sides loses.

Hey let's have a work stoppage precisely when the game is healthy and tv money is starting to flow again. Great ****ing idea...

 

[Melrose Munch]

Pepper was is there a gag order on the owners. Why is my boy Dolan not allowed to speak.

 

[GKJ]

You're wrong. The only problem in the NHL is player costs, i.e. player salaries. NHL is currently paying too much money to players and that has to change.

I'm not sure what you mean with NBA economics but I can tell you that with lower player costs, NHL could expand much further than the current 30 teams.

I think citizens of Glendale, Arizona would like a word with you

 

[Steve]

FYI decent article here, Shannon plays both sides quite well.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/2012/12/08/shannon_nhl_lockout_franchises_in_jeopardy/

 

[JAX]

You already said this, word for word on the last page.

thanks, my PC froze....I hit the button a couple times.

 

[Gobias Industries]

I just don't get why these guys get all butthurt about everything. They are in business negotiations - and should keep their emotions to themselves. But they get all heated up, storm out, pout and stomp their feet. The players call the owners and Bettman idiots which doesn't help the situation and everybody is playing games using the media. Just negotiate like it's a business for God's sake. They both must realize that every day they're not playing is money lost - money both sides loses.

Hey let's have a work stoppage precisely when the game is healthy and tv money is starting to flow again. Great ****ing idea...

They get butthurt because they think public perception factors into these negotiations and playing to the media is one of their strategies.

 

[mouser]

The NBA is a vastly different business, instead of chasing basketball and football, the NHL needs something that will work for them. Unfortunately, they don't have that kind of leadership.

The NBA is a vastly different sport. I would argue it's not a vastly different business model. Some elements of the business are more valuable or profitable, but both business include mostly the same levers.

 

[Steve]

The NBA is a vastly different sport. I would argue it's not a vastly different business model. Some elements of the business are more valuable or profitable, but both business include mostly the same levers.

One thing the NBA has going for them is a much smaller roster.