Lockout III: So close, and yet so far (Moderated: see post #295)

[FakeKidPoker*]

With all the talk.. been wondering, will there be any changes to the cap floor?

Really hurting the small markets that they have to spend 45-50 million a year.

But then we'll be back to where we were before 04 with such a big gap in teams.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

I think its pretty clear the 6 points or so that need to be done to get a deal... as I see them in no particular order...

1/ fire don fehr. whether he really has a deal to pay him 8 million to force the union into going against his approval or not... he's acting like it. fehr almost destroyed baseball. players gambled and lost trying to bring in a hardliner. time to bite the bullet and get someone in charge that actually can get a deal done.

2/ let gary bettman resigned. unlike fehr, bettman has a legacy and has done well for his people. BUT that doesnt change what a nightmare he is as far as PR goes with the fans and players. bettman can go out as the guy that gets this deal done, but after that he wont be around in 10 years anyhow. The league doesnt need a lawyer in charge for the next decade. They need someone good at PR

3/ which brings me to wayne gretzky the new figurehead commisioner. gretzky is upset the NHL owes him money. pay it to him to act as the commisioner for the next decade. Let him go on a goodwill tour of all the markets and repair relations with fans/players.

4/ as for the deal... its pretty much done now but as a goodwill move the league should agree to opwerate one more season under the old terms. This is done to get rid of the need for the make whole. just do one more season at 57% split which is needed to help the teams over the cap anyhow and is a bone thrown to the players for firing fehr and agreeing to a 50/50 split the rest of the 10 years.

5/ one unique suggestion that i throw from left field... put in a clause that allows each team to EXEMPT one single player from the cap/players pot of HRR. A team isnt forced to expercise this option, but they can if they want. Players that are exempt get paid directly from the owner of the team. This will effectively leave more money for the rest of the players to split. And some teams will be able to exceed the cap limit by using this option. These special players wont be subject to contract restrictions on term or front loading or anything like that.

only a maximum of 30 players would ever be granted this special status. Theoletically the games biggest superstars. they deserve it anyhow. More realistically only 10 or so teams would choose to exercise this option... but 10 teams could still generate 70-80 million dollars or more extra money for the players pot.

this takes the place of the current make whole thing... it becomes a voluntary process by the rich teams to ante up instead of a forced thing.

6/ and finally comes expansion... as the final bone the owners throw to the players/us fans to fix the damage done by this lockout, we get promised 2 new expansion teams. One for Toronto and one for Quebec. These markets need hockey anyhow. The 50/50 split will fix the weak american markets so they dont need to move. Leave them where they are and create 2 brand new teams... some 50 new union jobs.

The union makes out pretty damn good with my suggestions... a new friendly commisioner. 50 new jobs or so. better paydays for the games very best superstars. more then the 50-50 split that is in writing on the cba.

but the owners get everything they need to. the small markets do get the 50-50 and the league gets its limits on contract length and cap cicumvision that they were worried about... and a 10 year deal under the leadership of fan friendly figurehead wayne gretzky to spend time building the game again.

Make it happen

 

[DL44]

I am an Oilers fan and the 90's were dark days. Ex-Oilers on the 93-94 Rangers:

Kevin Lowe, Mark Messier, Adam Graves, Glenn Anderson, Craig McTavish, Esa Tikkanen, Jeff Beukeboom.

Also affected in different years: Curtis Joseph (Tor), Doug Weight (NYR). That's just the Oilers, too. There are a ton of examples out there.

add Guerin, Arnott...

That was a lot of HIGH end talent.

Edm would of been a regular challenger to the division if they could even afford HALF of those guys during the 90's.

 

[Zusammenhalt]

Backes explains this really well. I don't want the NHL to become like basketball even thought the owners want it that way. The NHL players all need to be valued members of the team. I get it now.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/hock...cle_94d8e547-1982-5d8a-8b2b-f20c86a32fb7.html

This is interesting too if I may emphasize.

Backes, however, said Friday that the players didn’t view the NHL’s make-whole offer of $300 million – $50 million of which would be earmarked for pension funding – as being contingent on the contract issues. “It wasn’t positioned that way, first of all,” Backes said. “They indicated that they had things that were important to them ... That’s great. They’re important to us, as well. So what they’re saying is that we need to give up (contract) rights that we had previously, and in exchange for that, they will give us an extra $89 million, which we already had (under the previous agreement) ...they’ll just agree to take less from us.”

 

[Zusammenhalt]

What happened to Tanenbaum's "We're going to continue to talk until we get a deal"

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-p...ogress-leafs-tanenbaum-ll-193104644--nhl.html

 

[Sydor25]

No, he won't, he'll get 5 x 13m and squeeze everyone else.

No he wouldn't.

He didn't get that with his last 5-year deal and he was already the best player in the NHL with zero concussion issues. No owners is going to handcuff himself. Besides, Crosby is in love with the $8.7 cap hit. Crosby will make up the difference with his endorsements, money that is outside the players share of HRR.

Contract limits will hurt the superstars, not the "middle class".

 

[Sydor25]

Backes explains this really well. I don't want the NHL to become like basketball even thought the owners want it that way. The NHL players all need to be valued members of the team. I get it now.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/hock...cle_94d8e547-1982-5d8a-8b2b-f20c86a32fb7.html

This is interesting too if I may emphasize.

There is no chance that the NHL will resemble the NBA salary structure. Just won't happen. The NBA has a much smaller bench and starters play 75% of the games. I don't remember seeing the NHL propose a 15 man roster limit like the NBA?

Again, if the NHLPA is so worried about the "middle class", they need to come up with a revenue sharing plan for their membership. The NHL is offering 50% of HRR, contract rights won't change that split.

A 5 year term limit will even the playing field and remove the cap busting contracts. Who is signing those cap busting deals? The middle class? Nope, the stars are signing the contracts that are going to disappear in the next CBA. The NHLPA is still fighting for the top 5% of the league. This is not a fight for the "middle class".

If the NHLPA put as much into the negotiations as they do in PR spin, there would probably be a deal already.

 

[Pepper]

NHLPA fighting against longer contracts is purely for the so-called star players of the league.

It's clear that Fehr is fighting for players like Crosby and Richards, PA doesn't really care about 4th-3rd line players who mostly have 1-3y contracts.

If the latest NHL proposal would be put under full NHLPA vote, it would be accepted by majority of players.

 

[Pepper]

NHLPA fighting FOR longer contracts is purely for the so-called star players of the league.

It's clear that Fehr is fighting for players like Crosby and Richards, PA doesn't really care about 4th-3rd line players who mostly have 1-3y contracts.

If the latest NHL proposal would be put under full NHLPA vote, it would be accepted by majority of players.

I can't edit my post so let me fix my post.

 

[Sydor25]

NHLPA fighting against longer contracts is purely for the so-called star players of the league.

It's clear that Fehr is fighting for players like Crosby and Richards, PA doesn't really care about 4th-3rd line players who mostly have 1-3y contracts.

If the latest NHL proposal would be put under full NHLPA vote, it would be accepted by majority of players.

Which is exactly why it wouldn't be put up for an official vote. The NHLPA leadership group knows that it would pass and they would rather lose another 15% of their paychecks (going from 60 games to 48 games) than slow the growth of the top 5% wage earners.

If the NHLPA was as united as they claim, a vote wouldn't be a problem and a "No" result would be the biggest leverage they would ever have in this negotiation. The owners would quickly agree to the NHLPA's proposal if the NHLPA gave an official "No" vote to the owner's proposal.

 

[IslesNorway]

Backes explains this really well. I don't want the NHL to become like basketball even thought the owners want it that way. The NHL players all need to be valued members of the team. I get it now.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/hock...cle_94d8e547-1982-5d8a-8b2b-f20c86a32fb7.html

This is interesting too if I may emphasize.

If Backes is telling the truth in that interview, then I simply can't believe that the talks broke down. If they were that close then surely, there must be a deal to be made soon.

 

[Pepper]

Which is exactly why it wouldn't be put up for an official vote. The NHLPA leadership group knows that it would pass and they would rather lose another 15% of their paychecks (going from 60 games to 48 games) than slow the growth of the top 5% wage earners.

If the NHLPA was as united as they claim, a vote wouldn't be a problem and a "No" result would be the biggest leverage they would ever have in this negotiation. The owners would quickly agree to the NHLPA's proposal if the NHLPA gave an official "No" vote to the owner's proposal.

Indeed.

If NHLPA wanted to strenghten it's position, it would make the latest offer under full PA vote. If it was rejected, NHL would be in a bad spot (their ideas of splintered PA would be shattered).

If NHL saw PA unified, they'd have to make a deal right now.

 

[JAX]

If Backes is telling the truth in that interview, then I simply can't believe that the talks broke down. If they were that close then surely, there must be a deal to be made soon.

That's Fehr's forte, get close tell everybody how close it is and then move the goal posts at the last seond. Then run to the media and cry about those mean owners.

 

[Jaffray15]

Contract limits will hurt the superstars, not the "middle class".

Exactly!!! This is one thing the PA doesn't want and it only effects a low percentage of players.

How silly is that???

 

[Ginu]

There is no chance that the NHL will resemble the NBA salary structure. Just won't happen. The NBA has a much smaller bench and starters play 75% of the games. I don't remember seeing the NHL propose a 15 man roster limit like the NBA?

Again, if the NHLPA is so worried about the "middle class", they need to come up with a revenue sharing plan for their membership. The NHL is offering 50% of HRR, contract rights won't change that split.

A 5 year term limit will even the playing field and remove the cap busting contracts. Who is signing those cap busting deals? The middle class? Nope, the stars are signing the contracts that are going to disappear in the next CBA. The NHLPA is still fighting for the top 5% of the league. This is not a fight for the "middle class".

If the NHLPA put as much into the negotiations as they do in PR spin, there would probably be a deal already.

You haven't understood the problem. You can't copy NBA economics and be the NHL. That's the point sir.

 

[Pepper]

You haven't understood the problem. You can't copy NBA economics and be the NHL. That's the point sir.

You're wrong. The only problem in the NHL is player costs, i.e. player salaries. NHL is currently paying too much money to players and that has to change.

I'm not sure what you mean with NBA economics but I can tell you that with lower player costs, NHL could expand much further than the current 30 teams.

 

[Sydor25]

You haven't understood the problem. You can't copy NBA economics and be the NHL. That's the point sir.

But you believe that the "middle class" will be destroyed by a 5 year contract limit?

 

[GKJ]

Your first paragraph is pure conjecture and off the mark. The owners know the players would always go back to Fehr. Steve Fehr was in the room the entire time. Him and Daly weren't just playing Chinese checkers in the corner. Did Bettman want D. Fehr out of the room? You bet. The owners certainly see him as an barrier to a deal. And based on his actions, i dont see how you can argue otherwise. But at no time would they have ever imagined that D. Fehr wouldn't be a part of the process or that they could somehow make those 18 players sign a CBA that will somehow bind all 700+ members. That's kind of absurd to even suggest. I would say there were two options for the league for this: 1. This was obviously the meeting where they decided they'd relent on certain contractual rights and increase make whole hoping this could in fact lead to a deal (but they would have known that Fehr would be involved). They were likely hoping that players would be more receptive to the owners. 2. If They came with what many thought would be their best offer, and he players still stalled, the Moderate owners would see it and give more support to the hardline stances.

They had one of their guys tell Ron Hainsey that bringing Fehr back into the room would end talks.

And, basically, it did. They wanted them to go back to Fehr and tell them "this is the deal we want" without him in the room. That's what they were trying to do. They tried to play the players for a fool, and they couldn't do it. So they stamped their feet like petulant children, took the PA offer, wiped themselves with it, and flushed it down the toilet without evidence that it was even read let alone considered.

 

[Pyromaniac3]

I'm shocked by how much lack of logic there is just in the last few posts. How old are you guys? Just saying something won't happen when the economics have already proven that that's what happens, is wrong. Unreal

If some GM pays some star 12mil per season, let them. They will never be able to ice a competitive team.

The only players hurt by eliminating front loaded deals are the star players. They HAVE to accept lower salaries in order to play for the cup. If we look at Parise's first 5 years, he is supposed to make 53mil. If we restructure his deal according to his cap hit, so 7.5 mil over 5 years, he makes only 37.5mil. It's a dramatic dropoff which the PA really wants to reject.

EDIT: The party that benefits the most from back-diving deals are the players. I have yet to see a single proposal from the PA that properly addresses this problem.

 

[Riptide]

But you believe that the "middle class" will be destroyed by a 5 year contract limit?

He also believes Crosby would have been offered 13m over 5 years. Which wouldn't happen, as Malkin would want an identical deal, and the team would not be able to compete with 2 players making that much of the cap (even if it was 70m). 2 players taking up 30% of your cap will royally screw the teams depth.

Do you think that Philly would have offered Weber an OS for 5x12m? No, because it kills their cap structure. Nashville could if they had to, because their not a cap team, and overpaying by a few million doesn't hurt them the same way it would a cap team. But a team that's trying to be competitive cannot afford to handcuff themselves with multiple long term big money deals. LA and Boston won the cup because of great depth. And they'll both continue to be forces as their cap management is excellent (you can add Vancouver to that list - as much as I dislike them).

Out of the 686 players currently on NHL rosters, 89 have a contract that's 6+ years (12.9%). Before the cap, only 1 player had a contract longer than 6 years (Yashin). Now doesn't that tell you something?

 

[Sydor25]

They had one of their guys tell Ron Hainsey that bringing Fehr back into the room would end talks.

And, basically, it did. They wanted them to go back to Fehr and tell them "this is the deal we want" without him in the room. That's what they were trying to do. They tried to play the players for a fool, and they couldn't do it. So they stamped their feet like petulant children, took the PA offer, wiped themselves with it, and flushed it down the toilet without evidence that it was even read let alone considered.

It wouldn't end the overall talks, it would end the players-owners only meeting format. The NHLPA just wants to spin it into a false threat for the media and fans. That is why the owners left, their job was done. They weren't needed anymore.

Steve Fehr was in the room the whole time. Isn't he going to be the successor of Don Fehr? Were the players really being taken advantage of with Steve Fehr in the room? The NHL knows that Don will have to give his blessing on any offer that needs to be put to a vote.


This is just like the spin that the players aren't "holding out for a better deal", which is what Don Fehr recommended. If they weren't holding out for a better deal, then what are they doing right now?

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

I find it interesting that despite the NHL going to the "take it or leave it" well on multiple occasions that the players still deserve blame for continuing to go for the third unspoken option. The NHL's strategy has been clear, frame their offer as the best they can do, get mad when it's not accepted, stomp around maybe say "disappointed" a few hundred times and then get back to negotiating.

 

[JAX]

If Backes is telling the truth in that interview, then I simply can't believe that the talks broke down. If they were that close then surely, there must be a deal to be made soon.

That's Fehr's forte, get close tell everybody how close it is and then move the goal posts at the last seond. Then run to the media and cry about those mean owners.

 

[Pepper]

They had one of their guys tell Ron Hainsey that bringing Fehr back into the room would end talks.

Please, don't make false statements like that.

NHL said that bringing in Fehr would end the owners-players talks which had progressed very well according to all sources.

Fehr came in - full stop in the process.

What does that tell you? Especially given the reports from pro-PA journalist like Adrian Dater who said players were willing to go but Fehr told them they could get more.

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

That's Fehr's forte, get close tell everybody how close it is and then move the goal posts at the last seond. Then run to the media and cry about those mean owners.

You already said this, word for word on the last page.