OT - NO POLITICS Local COVID-19 Discussion III

[brian_griffin]

I find it odd that the title says no politics, when it's painfully clear that politics has played such an integral role, both positive and negative (mostly), on how we're doing as a nation with the pandemic.

If only this was all about science, we would have been in great shape today and moving forward.

I agree the divisiveness would be far less, and cooperation more effective with less politicizing. But not clear to me the underlying COVID-19 data would be dramatically different (spread, deaths, ICU rates, hot spots, etc.) We're a diverse country geographically and demographically, and not as small and monolithic like, e.g., some of the European continental countries. Also, the non-medical COVID-related topics are the truly political hot beds, and we are avoiding those.

 

[Jake Bielecki]

I agree the divisiveness would be far less, and cooperation more effective with less politicizing. But not clear to me the underlying COVID-19 data would be dramatically different (spread, deaths, ICU rates, hot spots, etc.) We're a diverse country geographically and demographically, and not as small and monolithic like, e.g., some of the European continental countries. Also, the non-medical COVID-related topics are the truly political hot beds, and we are avoiding those.

It's not just the divisiveness, it's the Results we would have seen as a nation as a whole. Just think where we'd be had we only taken this seriously from the start. Hell, there's a pretty large faction who are still not taking it seriously.

And that's mostly due to leadership.


This never should have been about politics. Except for some inexplicable reason it was. Thus the irony of what we are not to talk about here.

 

[Gras]

**and can't and won't in a practical amount of time to inform current policy and action.

I was an 8-wk early pre-me allegedly with lungs not fully developed. Had bronchitis about 10-12 times until I went to college, and once again when away at school. Both parents smoking didn't help.

My uncle had pneumonia at ~45yo, always looked young for his age until then. It aged him visually 10 years or so as a result. His smoking didn't help either.

I have had bronch at least 3 times, this past October, 2016 and as a teenager, if what I had in October was bronch and not Covid since nobody really knows when it started.

 

[Gras]

It's not just the divisiveness, it's the Results we would have seen as a nation as a whole. Just think where we'd be had we only taken this seriously from the start. Hell, there's a pretty large faction who are still not taking it seriously.

And that's mostly due to leadership.

Both sides didn't take it seriously, the ones that actually raised the alarm were ridiculed.

 

[TalkingProuder]

Still super weird to me that there is a narrative that exists that only focuses on a body count. This virus targets head to toe. If you get it and are asymptomatic, congrats. If you get it and are not, your “recovered” self has a pretty damn good chance of not being the same. As far as I know, I didn’t have any long-term effects from having pneumonia as a kid, or getting the flu. This is different, and needs to be treated as such.

Yes, what is different is that in a severe flu season the media doesn't keep a scoreboard of cases and we don't have 100 media stories about people that have long term damage from the flu or pneumonia.

 

[Jake Bielecki]

Both sides didn't take it seriously, the ones that actually raised the alarm were ridiculed.

Interesting

 

[TheMistyStranger]

Yes, what is different is that in a severe flu season the media doesn't keep a scoreboard of cases and we don't have 100 media stories about people that have long term damage from the flu or pneumonia.

You’re suggesting this is a hoax?

 

[Husko]

Embedded bold reply in [brackets].



FWIW, my local parish church re-opened 4 weeks ago with VERY limited attendance, pre-registering (I assume to not only limit attendance but assist with contact tracing should it be necessary), strict procedures, mandatory masks, no singing, etc., It's likely the "safest" public forum I could encounter. There's a lot of elderly members there (compared to other local churches of the same denomination), so the majority are likely biased to a lowest-practical-risk position.

Let us know how the wedding / reception turns out.

Perhaps your church is more successful than others. I was on the phone with the priest who will be marrying us yesterday, and when I asked how they were dealing with restrictions, he said that they have so much space and such a (relatively small congregation) that they didn't have to impose any limits once they reopened.

 

[Husko]

I don't get why we get so worked up about over the mortality rate as it compares with the Flu. Yeah, it's pretty similar to the Flu. The difference has always been that it is way, way, way more contagious than the Flu.

 

[Jake Bielecki]

Don’t Travel Before Checking Harvard’s COVID-19 Hot Spot Map

 

[brian_griffin]

Yes, what is different is that in a severe flu season the media doesn't keep a scoreboard of cases and we don't have 100 media stories about people that have long term damage from the flu or pneumonia.

You’re suggesting this is a hoax?

I read it as we, as both a nation and the world at large, are accustomed to annual flu strains, whereas this virus is novel, hence the disparate attention.

Perhaps your church is more successful than others. I was on the phone with the priest who will be marrying us yesterday, and when I asked how they were dealing with restrictions, he said that they have so much space and such a (relatively small congregation) that they didn't have to impose any limits once they reopened.

One of your benefits living in a large metro NYC area! My registered parish is 1/10th the size in families and space as the closest parish a couple blocks away. I never changed registration even though I've lived closer to the larger one (in three separate homes) for a greater number of years. I prefer the smaller setting (and the shorter services )

 

[TalkingProuder]

You’re suggesting this is a hoax?

No. There is a virus out there and some people don't do well with it. As Dr. David Katz explained, it's as if there are two different ones. For the vast majority of people, they will feel nothing or have mild symptoms. For a small group of people, especially concentrated in the elderly, this can be a knockout punch.

We already have data now for excess mortality in Europe from https://www.euromomo.eu/.

Covid 19 excess mortality is about 20% higher than the 2017-2018 severe flu season.

 

[Buffaloed]

The Pandemic Experts Are Not Okay
The people doing this work have had to recalibrate their lives. From March to May, Colin Carlson, a research professor at Georgetown University who specializes in infectious diseases, spent most of his time traversing the short gap between his bed and his desk. He worked relentlessly and knocked back coffee, even though it exacerbates his severe anxiety: The cost was worth it, he felt, when the United States still seemed to have a chance of controlling COVID-19.
The U.S. frittered away that chance. Through social distancing, the American public bought the country valuable time at substantial personal cost. The Trump administration should have used that time to roll out a coordinated plan to ramp up America’s ability to test and trace infected people. It didn’t. Instead, to the immense frustration of public-health advisers, leaders rushed to reopen while most states were still woefully unprepared.

When Arizona Governor Doug Ducey began reviving businesses in early May, the intensive-care unit of Popescu’s hospital was still full of COVID-19 patients. “Within our public-health bubble, we were getting nervous, but then you walked outside and it was like Pleasantville,” she said. “People thought we had conquered it, and now it feels like we’re drowning.”
The COVID-19 unit has had to expand across an entire hospital wing and onto another floor. Beds have filled with younger patients. Long lines are snaking around the urgent-care building, and people are passing out in the 110-degree heat. At some hospitals, labs are so inundated that it takes several days to get test results back. “We thought we could have scaled down instead of scaling up,” Popescu said. “But because of poor political decisions that every public-health person I know disagreed with, everything that could go wrong did go wrong.”

States that rushed to re-open without a plan are paying a heavy price. It's willful ignorance. They might as well have Kim Pegula running things.

 

[Gras]

Interesting

Trump downplayed it in the beginning and still does to an extent.

How was Tom Cotton treated in the media when he wrote his 1st letter sounding the alarm on Jan 22 and calling for travel restrictions.
Tom Cotton: China needs to answer for 'malfeasance' in coronavirus outbreak
Don't Listen To Sen. Tom Cotton About Coronavirus | HuffPost

What was the reaction when Trump instituted the travel ban from China.

The media wrote countless articles down playing the virus in the beginning.

Mayor de Blasio Encourages New Yorkers to Visit Asian-American Owned Small Businesses

Bernie Sanders said on March 9th that he would have closed our borders so try and stop the virus.

 

[Dubi Doo]

No. There is a virus out there and some people don't do well with it. As Dr. David Katz explained, it's as if there are two different ones. For the vast majority of people, they will feel nothing or have mild symptoms. For a small group of people, especially concentrated in the elderly, this can be a knockout punch.

We already have data now for excess mortality in Europe from https://www.euromomo.eu/.

Covid 19 excess mortality is about 20% higher than the 2017-2018 severe flu season.

As you were typing this, Texas had stopped elective cases in 100 counties, which will drain their revenue stream causing major financial problems going forward. I should know, because my hospital went through the same thing.

Also, I distinctly remember you being concerned about people with other health issues not getting proper treatment due to the lock-down. Tell me- who are the ones that are going to suffer now that elective cases have been stopped? Now that doctors and nurses are spread out thin dealing with this COVID surge?

Theyre on the verge of another stay at home order. Every thing you were so adamantly against is coming to fruition again. Why is that? Did they not follow the Sweden approach by not opening up enough and just telling people to socially distance? Maybe they should've just protected elderely homes and everything would be fine right now?

You were wrong about this virus. It's a nasty little booger, and we need to be careful with our handling of it or else we'll end up like Houston, Miami, NYC, Jersey, etc...

 

[Dubi Doo]

**and can't and won't in a practical amount of time to inform current policy and action.

I was an 8-wk early pre-me allegedly with lungs not fully developed. Had bronchitis about 10-12 times until I went to college, and once again when away at school. Both parents smoking didn't help.

My uncle had pneumonia at ~45yo, always looked young for his age until then. It aged him visually 10 years or so as a result. His smoking didn't help either.

Luckily, putting policies in place to prevent surges also prevents less people from getting sick and dealing with the unknown.

Just to be clear- Im not advocating for another lock-down (unless absolutely necessary) I truly believe with the knowledge we've gained (and will gain) we can control this virus. We can have a semblance of normal again, especially if we can heavily invest in technological advancement such as air filtration, UV, etc...and better treatment. I view this as a war, so let's ante up.

Hell, im going to an outdoor bar on Sat night and camping next week. It's just frustrating watching leaders make the same mistake over and over again with the same results. The general population is going to be scattered with people who wont take this virus seriously; it's on our elected officials to mitigate that issue. Some at least seem to be smartening up.

Also, Im a fietsy son of a gun when it comes to this, so apologies if I come off as a nitwit. Im emotionally invested because I have personal experience seeing how this virus effects people (which I think you touched on in you previous post). I also believe I have a decent amount of knowledge on how this virus moves, so I'm not backing down from these duels. My fingers are always on the holster ready for anyone to act shifty, haha.

 

[TalkingProuder]

As you were typing this, Texas had stopped elective cases in 100 counties, which will drain their revenue stream causing major financial problems going forward. I should know, because my hospital went through the same thing.

Also, I distinctly remember you being concerned about people with other health issues not getting proper treatment due to the lock-down. Tell me- who are the ones that are going to suffer now that elective cases have been stopped? Now that doctors and nurses are spread out thin dealing with this COVID surge?

Theyre on the verge of another stay at home order. Every thing you were so adamantly against is coming to fruition again. Why is that? Did they not follow the Sweden approach by not opening up enough and just telling people to socially distance? Maybe they should've just protected elderely homes and everything would be fine right now?

You were wrong about this virus. It's a nasty little booger, and we need to be careful with our handling of it or else we'll end up like Houston, Miami, NYC, Jersey, etc...

Last I heard Covid was only 15 percent or so of the hospital utilization in Texas so if what you're saying is the case it sounds like an overreaction.

Ultimately hospital utilization should be the guide. One of the reasons many hospitals are packed now is the panic where people were delaying care to keep hospitals available for Covid.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Perhaps your church is more successful than others. I was on the phone with the priest who will be marrying us yesterday, and when I asked how they were dealing with restrictions, he said that they have so much space and such a (relatively small congregation) that they didn't have to impose any limits once they reopened.

come down south. We have space problems which require additional services

 

[Husko]

One of your benefits living in a large metro NYC area! My registered parish is 1/10th the size in families and space as the closest parish a couple blocks away. I never changed registration even though I've lived closer to the larger one (in three separate homes) for a greater number of years. I prefer the smaller setting (and the shorter services )

I do live in NYC, but that's in Buffalo, actually! St. Michael's church downtown.

 

[Husko]

come down south. We have space problems which require additional services

A good problem to have!

 

[Der Jaeger]

A good problem to have!

A bit OT, but whatevs. We've lived in Savannah, Columbus (GA), Temple (TX), and now Columbia (SC). Church attendance is not really an issue down south. Lots of folks with strong faith. For us, it's a great climate to raise kids.

South Carolina is really nice in that regard. We also liked Texas.

 

[vcv]

Trump downplayed it in the beginning and still does to an extent.

How was Tom Cotton treated in the media when he wrote his 1st letter sounding the alarm on Jan 22 and calling for travel restrictions.
Tom Cotton: China needs to answer for 'malfeasance' in coronavirus outbreak
Don't Listen To Sen. Tom Cotton About Coronavirus | HuffPost

What was the reaction when Trump instituted the travel ban from China.

The media wrote countless articles down playing the virus in the beginning.

Mayor de Blasio Encourages New Yorkers to Visit Asian-American Owned Small Businesses

Bernie Sanders said on March 9th that he would have closed our borders so try and stop the virus.

Most people were talking out of their ass in January because it was very early and people knew very little. Some journalists got it wrong (usually it was the headlines that were wrong, because headline writers suck ass).

How about we get over that and fast forward to late February, early march, whenever it became apparent to just about everyone globally how serious this was.

Who took it seriously then?
Some governors did (Dem + Rep alike), some did not.
Most media outlets did
The CDC did
The President kind of did and put on a face of taking it more seriously than he was. He was still calling it a democrat hoax, not taking decisive enough action.

The leaders whose words and actions mattered, and who had the power, failed us as a nation and as united states. Those leaders are largely Republicans. There were failures by Democrats as well (Cuomo with nursing homes, Schumer and Pelosi for no f***ing sense of urgency whatsoever, etc), but by and large, the Republican party leadership was actively fighting against decision action and messaging that would have limited the damage.

----

FWIW to anyone, I found a well maintained data set, though it does not have demographics: CSSEGISandData/COVID-19

 

[Der Jaeger]

Most people were talking out of their ass in January because it was very early and people knew very little. Some journalists got it wrong (usually it was the headlines that were wrong, because headline writers suck ass).

How about we get over that and fast forward to late February, early march, whenever it became apparent to just about everyone globally how serious this was.

Who took it seriously then?
Some governors did (Dem + Rep alike), some did not.
Most media outlets did
The CDC did
The President kind of did and put on a face of taking it more seriously than he was. He was still calling it a democrat hoax, not taking decisive enough action.

The leaders whose words and actions mattered, and who had the power, failed us as a nation and as united states. Those leaders are largely Republicans. There were failures by Democrats as well (Cuomo with nursing homes, Schumer and Pelosi for no f***ing sense of urgency whatsoever, etc), but by and large, the Republican party leadership was actively fighting against decision action and messaging that would have limited the damage.

----

FWIW to anyone, I found a well maintained data set, though it does not have demographics: CSSEGISandData/COVID-19

Do you have proof that it was conservative leadership which largely failed us? From where I sit, there's plenty of folks on both sides who screwed it up. NY and NYC screwed it up the most, and that's all liberal leadership. Democratic governors in Michigan and Illinois used the situation to their advantage as a party, and that's putting party over responsibilities as an elected executive. NC's governor is a Democrat and I think he did a great job.

South Carolina's governor has done very well and made very good decisions. Texas' governor is taking it very seriously. Both Republicans. I agree that the federal government's response was delayed and not as effective as it could've been. But even when federal assistance came, and it did big time especially for NYC, the civilian leadership there f$cked it up. Meanwhile the House held up the relief bill for crap like the Kennedy Center.

Plenty of blame to go around to both parties.

 

[SackTastic]

Do you have proof that it was conservative leadership which largely failed us? From where I sit, there's plenty of folks on both sides who screwed it up. NY and NYC screwed it up the most, and that's all liberal leadership. Democratic governors in Michigan and Illinois used the situation to their advantage as a party, and that's putting party over responsibilities as an elected executive. NC's governor is a Democrat and I think he did a great job.

South Carolina's governor has done very well and made very good decisions. Texas' governor is taking it very seriously. Both Republicans. I agree that the federal government's response was delayed and not as effective as it could've been. But even when federal assistance came, and it did big time especially for NYC, the civilian leadership there f$cked it up. Meanwhile the House held up the relief bill for crap like the Kennedy Center.

Plenty of blame to go around to both parties.

NY and NYC were a little late to get going, but once they realized it, they took pretty decisive action and did it quickly. They were absolutely not perfect, but when it was clear it was serious they took is seriously.

 

[Der Jaeger]

NY and NYC were a little late to get going, but once they realized it, they took pretty decisive action and did it quickly. They were absolutely not perfect, but when it was clear it was serious they took is seriously.

No offense to anyone from NYC, but from a DoD perspective, NYC sucked. The Javits Center debacle was 100% on NYC leadership. I know the people in charge of building it, and in charge of running it. We broke open war stocks and mobilized field hospitals to equip and man the Javits Center. Millions of tax payer dollars. The place was ready and capable. NYC botched the transfer of patients.

Some folks on this board get upset about folks not taking precautions seriously and that potentially costing lives. And that's well placed. You should be more upset about NYC. But be more pissed about anyone who died in NYC without a manned ICU hospital bed. They were available. And lots of them.