OT - NO POLITICS Local COVID-19 Discussion III

[vcv]

Do you have proof that it was conservative leadership which largely failed us? From where I sit, there's plenty of folks on both sides who screwed it up. NY and NYC screwed it up the most, and that's all liberal leadership. Democratic governors in Michigan and Illinois used the situation to their advantage as a party, and that's putting party over responsibilities as an elected executive. NC's governor is a Democrat and I think he did a great job.

South Carolina's governor has done very well and made very good decisions. Texas' governor is taking it very seriously. Both Republicans. I agree that the federal government's response was delayed and not as effective as it could've been. But even when federal assistance came, and it did big time especially for NYC, the civilian leadership there f$cked it up. Meanwhile the House held up the relief bill for crap like the Kennedy Center.

Plenty of blame to go around to both parties.

No. I said Republican Party is largely responsible.

Proof:
- The U.S. has done a shit job overall
- The U.S. President is a Republican and oversees federal agencies tasked with taking action
- The Republican party has largely supported the President in his actions and leadership.

It's not complicated.

You also seemed to ignore my comments about democrats failing as well. But yeah, ok. You're debating in good faith I'm sure.

NY leadership did fail in the beginning. And then they tried to do better as time went on. I would hope Cuomo would be held to account for that but I doubt it.

What have states like Texas, Florida, Arizona, Alabama done, after seeing what worked and what didn't work for NY? They royally f***ed it up because they wanted to support their party's message.

 

[OkimLom]

Trump downplayed it in the beginning and still does to an extent.

How was Tom Cotton treated in the media when he wrote his 1st letter sounding the alarm on Jan 22 and calling for travel restrictions.
Tom Cotton: China needs to answer for 'malfeasance' in coronavirus outbreak
Don't Listen To Sen. Tom Cotton About Coronavirus | HuffPost

What was the reaction when Trump instituted the travel ban from China.

The media wrote countless articles down playing the virus in the beginning.

Mayor de Blasio Encourages New Yorkers to Visit Asian-American Owned Small Businesses

Bernie Sanders said on March 9th that he would have closed our borders so try and stop the virus.

Good on Cotton to try and warn those Americans in China to get Out, but it would’ve been a very irresponsible action without any protocols in place, to not quarantine those that were coming over to test them or anybody else coming back to the country. And the media went after Cotton for the misinformation he was trying to spread about the virus and it being man-made and other conspiracy theories than about the virus itself.

That De Blaiso article was written in February weeks before the 1st confirmed case of COVID was revealed in NYC. They were singing a completely different tune when it hit NYC.

The funny thing about the Travel Ban that get thrown around, and often cited was Pelosi’s reaction to it, but there was another travel ban that was implemented that had to do with A 2017 travel ban that was reason for her outcry. But the media mistook that for the Chinese COVID travel ban.

 

[vcv]

Good on Cotton to try and warn those Americans in China to get Out, but it would’ve been a very irresponsible action without any protocols in place, to not quarantine those that were coming over to test them or anybody else coming back to the country. And the media went after Cotton for the misinformation he was trying to spread about the virus and it being man-made and other conspiracy theories than about the virus itself.

That De Blaiso article was written in February weeks before the 1st confirmed case of COVID was revealed in NYC. They were singing a completely different tune when it hit NYC.

The funny thing about the Travel Ban that get thrown around, and often cited was Pelosi’s reaction to it, but there was another travel ban that was implemented that had to do with A 2017 travel ban that was reason for her outcry. But the media mistook that for the Chinese COVID travel ban.

Yeah, you hit the nail. Cotton might have been taken more seriously if he didn't attach his alarm to an unsupported conspiracy theory.

 

[Husko]

No offense to anyone from NYC, but from a DoD perspective, NYC sucked. The Javits Center debacle was 100% on NYC leadership. I know the people in charge of building it, and in charge of running it. We broke open war stocks and mobilized field hospitals to equip and man the Javits Center. Millions of tax payer dollars. The place was ready and capable. NYC botched the transfer of patients.

Some folks on this board get upset about folks not taking precautions seriously and that potentially costing lives. And that's well placed. You should be more upset about NYC. But be more pissed about anyone who died in NYC without a manned ICU hospital bed. They were available. And lots of them.

NYC's leadership was abysmal. That, and then the horrid response to the protests, really exemplified how incapable De Blasio is at the job.

Cuomo has demonstrated a mighty fine powerpoint game, but he's had his own blunders as well. I will give him credit for at least trying to be Mr. Science on this one, though make no mistake it's all self interested.

New York's recovery and successful reopening can be attributed to a lot of things and it would be foolish to focus too much on one policy or actor. Personally, I'd say the biggest factor is that the citizens started taking it very seriously.

 

[brian_griffin]

come down south. We have space problems which require additional services

true where I live as well.
There was a scenario a few years ago where a stone church in the Philly area from the late 1800s was moved with catalogued inventory of blocks to Georgia, reassembled with modern HVAC and utilities, and sanctified.

The Buffalo diocese realignment and restructuring preceded the Raleigh and Charlotte diocese building needs by a handful of years, else it likely would have been an economically viable approach. But once the properties were sold and the utilities cut off, the degradation accelerated.

 

[Jake Bielecki]

NYC's leadership was abysmal. That, and then the horrid response to the protests, really exemplified how incapable De Blasio is at the job.

Cuomo has demonstrated a mighty fine powerpoint game, but he's had his own blunders as well. I will give him credit for at least trying to be Mr. Science on this one, though make no mistake it's all self interested.

New York's recovery and successful reopening can be attributed to a lot of things and it would be foolish to focus too much on one policy or actor. Personally, I'd say the biggest factor is that the citizens started taking it very seriously.

Because of LEADERSHIP.

Not complicated

 

[missingmika]

Do you have proof that it was conservative leadership which largely failed us? From where I sit, there's plenty of folks on both sides who screwed it up. NY and NYC screwed it up the most, and that's all liberal leadership. Democratic governors in Michigan and Illinois used the situation to their advantage as a party, and that's putting party over responsibilities as an elected executive. NC's governor is a Democrat and I think he did a great job.

South Carolina's governor has done very well and made very good decisions. Texas' governor is taking it very seriously. Both Republicans. I agree that the federal government's response was delayed and not as effective as it could've been. But even when federal assistance came, and it did big time especially for NYC, the civilian leadership there f$cked it up. Meanwhile the House held up the relief bill for crap like the Kennedy Center.

Plenty of blame to go around to both parties.

The House didn't hold up the CARES Act. Plus the CARES Act did include $25 million for the Kennedy Center and was voted 96-0 in the Senate.

The Republicans did try to stop the CARES Act at the last min because they felt the extra $600 of unemployment would make people not want to work.

You had another Republican in Kentucky hold up the passage in the house by refusing to vote yes for it unless everyone met in person.

CARES Act has been pretty successful in helping people stay employed. It's been a tire fire from an agency stand point on getting regs out (or as they call them final interim rules) in a timely fashion.

In the immortal words of Donald Trump's Twitter: Leadership: Whatever happens, you're responsible. If it doesn't happen, you're responsible.

The buck stops at the President. He could have 1) set an example about wearing masks, 2) not told agencies to do less testing, 3) helped people get off the boat early in this but was worried about his numbers, 4) create a unified Federal effort to PPE instead of having states fight over it, 5) not threatening to withhold help from blue states unless they treat him well, etc.

The tones set at the top.

 

[Der Jaeger]

No. I said Republican Party is largely responsible.

Proof:
- The U.S. has done a shit job overall
- The U.S. President is a Republican and oversees federal agencies tasked with taking action
- The Republican party has largely supported the President in his actions and leadership.

It's not complicated.

You also seemed to ignore my comments about democrats failing as well. But yeah, ok. You're debating in good faith I'm sure.

NY leadership did fail in the beginning. And then they tried to do better as time went on. I would hope Cuomo would be held to account for that but I doubt it.

What have states like Texas, Florida, Arizona, Alabama done, after seeing what worked and what didn't work for NY? They royally f***ed it up because they wanted to support their party's message.

You did place the majority of the blame on Republicans. But that's not how the country runs. Governors have a huge part in the response. A Governor with foresight and a good team can overcome federal leadership. South Carolina is proof.

If you think the DoD acted slowly or delayed because of the President, you don't understand how things work. We take direction from the CinC, but we can prepare well ahead of time. DoD was ready to support weeks ahead of the decision to mobilize. It takes a lot to build a running hospital out of a convention center. But that happened fast. Because we were ready. Had nothing to do with political party.

NYC and NY leadership didn't just fail at the beginning. The Javits Center admissions debacle went into May. Those Reservists sat there with ICU beds ready and no patients for weeks. When they finally got patients, it was late April and early May, we'll after NYC was in the acceleration phase. They should all be held accountable, because they had massive amounts of help within city limits and screwed it up for weeks. And that's got nothing to do with the federal government or supporting a party. That's plain incompetence.

Texas' governor is getting hammered locally because he opened too slowly. We lived there and have plenty of friends still there. Abbott basically did not follow what Trump wanted to do. South Carolina has done it's own thing and has done well so far, and we've taken measures somewhat aligned to the federal government but nuanced to the state. So it's not a uniform party line thing like you're making it out to be.

 

[Der Jaeger]

The House didn't hold up the CARES Act. Plus the CARES Act did include $25 million for the Kennedy Center and was voted 96-0 in the Senate.

The Republicans did try to stop the CARES Act at the last min because they felt the extra $600 of unemployment would make people not want to work.

You had another Republican in Kentucky hold up the passage in the house by refusing to vote yes for it unless everyone met in person.

CARES Act has been pretty successful in helping people stay employed. It's been a tire fire from an agency stand point on getting regs out (or as they call them final interim rules) in a timely fashion.

In the immortal words of Donald Trump's Twitter: Leadership: Whatever happens, you're responsible. If it doesn't happen, you're responsible.

The buck stops at the President. He could have 1) set an example about wearing masks, 2) not told agencies to do less testing, 3) helped people get off the boat early in this but was worried about his numbers, 4) create a unified Federal effort to PPE instead of having states fight over it, 5) not threatening to withhold help from blue states unless they treat him well, etc.

The tones set at the top.

WTF? The House did hold things up because they added so much fluff to the bill. So the Senate was going to hold up a recovery bill because of the fluff, and let people suffer? That was party politics at its worst. The Kentucky guy was just one person.

I agree that the President didn't coordinate this well. But Congress and the States had a huge part to play and a lot of them, both sides, messed it up. I got a front row seat with my job to see it.

 

[Husko]

Because of LEADERSHIP.

Not complicated

I don't disagree. Red man should get a lot of blame for leading the charge on making masks a political question.

 

[Der Jaeger]

I don't disagree. Red man should get a lot of blame for leading the charge on making masks a political question.

Don't disagree. From where I sit, the country spent too much time acting off political agendas and bias and not enough time governing in the best interest of the people. That's from DC all the way down, both sides.

 

[Husko]

Don't disagree. From where I sit, the country spent too much time acting off political agendas and bias and not enough time governing in the best interest of the people. That's from DC all the way down, both sides.

I think we saw a lot of just bad leaders be bad leaders. Look at De Blasio:
Mayor Says That Healthy People Should Still Be Dining Out (March 11)
St. Patrick’s Day Parade Is Postponed in New York Over Coronavirus Concerns (March 11 again, it took that along for him to finally give in and cancel it)
He also encouraged NYC to go out for one last hurrah after the shutdowns were announced before they went into effect.

He didn't fail because of his politics. He failed because he's a nitwit.

 

[vcv]

You did place the majority of the blame on Republicans. But that's not how the country runs. Governors have a huge part in the response. A Governor with foresight and a good team can overcome federal leadership. South Carolina is proof.

Because Republicans have a majority of the power. That's how the country runs.

If you think the DoD acted slowly or delayed because of the President, you don't understand how things work. We take direction from the CinC, but we can prepare well ahead of time. DoD was ready to support weeks ahead of the decision to mobilize. It takes a lot to build a running hospital out of a convention center. But that happened fast. Because we were ready. Had nothing to do with political party.

I wasn't even thinking of the DoD, but no, I'm talking about the response as a whole from all federal agencies.

NYC and NY leadership didn't just fail at the beginning. The Javits Center admissions debacle went into May. Those Reservists sat there with ICU beds ready and no patients for weeks. When they finally got patients, it was late April and early May, we'll after NYC was in the acceleration phase. They should all be held accountable, because they had massive amounts of help within city limits and screwed it up for weeks. And that's got nothing to do with the federal government or supporting a party. That's plain incompetence.

You're hyper focused on this, but many of us have already said the NY response started off bad, and have said there have been mistakes.

Texas' governor is getting hammered locally because he opened too slowly. We lived there and have plenty of friends still there. Abbott basically did not follow what Trump wanted to do.

Let me put it a different way for you: Some governor actions have been influenced by not wanting to go too much against the President. I don't expect any of them to do EXACTLY everything he wants every time. But I expect they make decisions independent of what will trigger a twitter rant against them.

So it's not a uniform party line thing like you're making it out to be.

You're perceiving that. I'm saying Republicans are largely to blame because they are have a majority of power. That's not "uniform". So take your both sides horse and ride on out of partisanville.

 

[OkimLom]

I think it’s safe to say that no state can say they did the best that they could’ve done with the virus. That goes for the POTUS and Congress.

There’s a lot of people that dropped the ball and there are a lot of people that continue to drop the ball.

 

[Jake Bielecki]

I think it’s safe to say that no state can say they did the best that they could’ve done with the virus. That goes for the POTUS and Congress.

There’s a lot of people that dropped the ball and there are a lot of people that continue to drop the ball.

And one guy thought it could be helpful to inject yourself with disinfectants. And he doesn't wear a mask. Just saying

 

[Der Jaeger]

Because Republicans have a majority of the power. That's how the country runs.

I wasn't even thinking of the DoD, but no, I'm talking about the response as a whole from all federal agencies.

You're hyper focused on this, but many of us have already said the NY response started off bad, and have said there have been mistakes.

Let me put it a different way for you: Some governor actions have been influenced by not wanting to go too much against the President. I don't expect any of them to do EXACTLY everything he wants every time. But I expect they make decisions independent of what will trigger a twitter rant against them.

You're perceiving that. I'm saying Republicans are largely to blame because they are have a majority of power. That's not "uniform". So take your both sides horse and ride on out of partisanville.

I'm hyper focused on the DoD response, because that's the biggest and most effective department in the federal government. If you want something done, that's who you use. The entire federal government put together, is smaller and less effective than DoD. So when the federal government sends a military response, that's the best and most effective response the federal government can have.

The NY response started off bad and was crap for months. Cuomo talked for weeks endlessly about ventilators when the ones we brought out of war stocks sat idle at the Javits center.

You're clearly a liberal and a Democrat. I'm an independent. It helps with my job. So you can play party sides and continue to contribute to dysfunctionality.

 

[Der Jaeger]

I think we saw a lot of just bad leaders be bad leaders. Look at De Blasio:
Mayor Says That Healthy People Should Still Be Dining Out (March 11)
St. Patrick’s Day Parade Is Postponed in New York Over Coronavirus Concerns (March 11 again, it took that along for him to finally give in and cancel it)
He also encouraged NYC to go out for one last hurrah after the shutdowns were announced before they went into effect.

He didn't fail because of his politics. He failed because he's a nitwit.

Bingo.

 

[vcv]

You're clearly a liberal and a Democrat. I'm an independent. It helps with my job. So you can play party sides and continue to contribute to dysfunctionality.

Hi, I'm actually an independent. I criticize both parties. But thanks.

 

[vcv]

Bingo.

I mean... we all can agree de Blasio has done nothing right about this. No matter what party or leanings. That's someone we can all unify in hatred behind. Heck, pretty much the last few NYC mayors have sucked.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Hi, I'm actually an independent. I criticize both parties. But thanks.

Sounded like it when you told me to take my both sides argument and ride out.

 

[Der Jaeger]

I mean... we all can agree de Blasio has done nothing right about this. No matter what party or leanings. That's someone we can all unify in hatred behind. Heck, pretty much the last few NYC mayors have sucked.

He's horrible. I know plenty of military medical workers who went to NYC and sat idle while his administration botched patient transfers, then blamed it on military administrators. Which we found humorous, sad, and frustrating, because all military admin workers in hospitals are civilians. A field hospital doesn't have them. Which is what we sent to NYC. No military medic, nurse, PA, or doctor will ever deny treatment in a deployed or emergency setting.

The problem is that the media buys off on that type of crap and doesn't question it.

 

[vcv]

Sounded like it when you told me to take my both sides argument and ride out.

Because "both sides" is an old political trope, used heavily by the likes of NYT, WaPo, etc, to avoid holding the party in power to account for their actions.

 

[missingmika]

WTF? The House did hold things up because they added so much fluff to the bill. So the Senate was going to hold up a recovery bill because of the fluff, and let people suffer? That was party politics at its worst. The Kentucky guy was just one person.

I agree that the President didn't coordinate this well. But Congress and the States had a huge part to play and a lot of them, both sides, messed it up. I got a front row seat with my job to see it.

House put their bill on the floor March 23. Senate came to an agreement on March 25. So if there was a delay it's a day.

March 25 Senate passes the bill. Graham, Scott, Sassie and Scott threaten to kill the bill because they were worried poor people would make too much money due to the $600 unemployment. An amendment to cap the unemployment benefits failed on a 48-48 vote.

March 25 House ready to pass the bill but had to delay voting due to a House Republican from Kentucky. March 27 bill passes.

The bill was never held up due to fluff. The major snags in the bill were the unemployment and the Kentucky guy.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Because "both sides" is an old political trope, used heavily by the likes of NYT, WaPo, etc, to avoid holding the party in power to account for their actions.

I don't read any of that, and haven't for years, so I'm not familiar.

 

[Der Jaeger]

House put their bill on the floor March 23. Senate came to an agreement on March 25. So if there was a delay it's a day.

March 25 Senate passes the bill. Graham, Scott, Sassie and Scott threaten to kill the bill because they were worried poor people would make too much money due to the $600 unemployment. An amendment to cap the unemployment benefits failed on a 48-48 vote.

March 25 House ready to pass the bill but had to delay voting due to a House Republican from Kentucky. March 27 bill passes.

The bill was never held up due to fluff. The major snags in the bill were the unemployment and the Kentucky guy.

Those are just the votes. The bill was introduced march 13