Liljegren eager to take next step

[mapleleaf979]

Liljegren has every chance of becoming a #1 defenseman. he might not get there, but his talent is much higher than a 4/5

Being a #1 Dman is not about talent, its about IQ. Liljegren has to get to the NHL and then flourish mentally to get to top pairing level.

 

[Kamiccolo]

You don't learn to defend against Crosby by practicing defending against Komarov and Ennis or AHL plugs. McAvoy was thrown into first pairing minutes in the playoffs as his first real taste of NHL competition, some guys are just ready.

Ideally Liljegren would be playing in some kind of league full of other teams top prospects. Unfortunately the AHL isn't that, most of it is full of grinding lifers and small skilled guys with huge holes in their games. Both of those types are the ideal candidate for Liljegren to abuse with his speed in ways that won't work in the NHL.

I mean.. What? First of all McAvoy is a years older. Second of all the AHL is in the top 3 levels of skill in the world. These guys are better than playing "top prospects" who are all in the OHL. Third, there are many many more D that get ruined than succeed by being thrown to the wolves. Edmonton has ruined countless guys doing exactly this.

Development is not linear nor is it a set of standards that you must meet it or else be a bust.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I mean.. What? First of all McAvoy is a years older. Second of all the AHL is in the top 3 levels of skill in the world. These guys are better than playing "top prospects" who are all in the OHL. Third, there are many many more D that get ruined than succeed by being thrown to the wolves. Edmonton has ruined countless guys doing exactly this.

Development is not linear nor is it a set of standards that you must meet it or else be a bust.

McAvoy averaged 26 minutes a game in the playoffs at 19, what does his current age have to do with it?

The AHL is the 3rd best league in the world, but I wouldn't call it the easily the 3rd most skilled. It's a very grindy north-south game compared to other pro leagues that are worse overall. The biggest difference is the bottom-end of the lineup where most AHL teams blow other professional leagues out of the water. My main issue is that it's a league where Liljegren can afford to take more risks because his skating will allow him to escape punishment in a way that it wouldn't against faster skilled players in the NHL.

Edmonton ruined guys because they were thrown into the NHL with next to no support and horrible coaching. I don't see how Liljegren getting soft 3rd pairing minutes with a competent partner is in any way comparable.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Being a #1 Dman is not about talent, its about IQ. Liljegren has to get to the NHL and then flourish mentally to get to top pairing level.

I don't think you can say that talent is a non-factor, there's some guys in the league who do a lot on their talent. Karlsson is a contender, if not the favourite, for being the best dman of his generation and he's a supremely talented player who doesn't get the highest marks for positioning or defensive play but controls the puck when he gets it and makes things happen offensively

I do think you're right about IQ mattering, and I watched all the ahltracker monthly highlight clips of Liljegren last night, I will say that I see lots of room for improvement IQ wise. He tried a lot of things that he didn't need to in high risk/low reward situations (like a through the legs pass behind his own net while being pursued by a forechecker that had a team mate right infront of our net if he picked the pass), and some of them went south on him. But, he also consistently skated the puck out of our end under pressure, gained the opposing blueline under control and established forward zone control and used his legs to cover mistakes consistently. If he's not doggedly against learning like Gardiner seems to be, there's a lot of room for optimism

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I don't think you can say that talent is a non-factor, there's some guys in the league who do a lot on their talent. Karlsson is a contender, if not the favourite, for being the best dman of his generation and he's a supremely talented player who doesn't get the highest marks for positioning or defensive play but controls the puck when he gets it and makes things happen offensively

I do think you're right about IQ mattering, and I watched all the ahltracker monthly highlight clips of Liljegren last night, I will say that I see lots of room for improvement IQ wise. He tried a lot of things that he didn't need to in high risk/low reward situations (like a through the legs pass behind his own net while being pursued by a forechecker that had a team mate right infront of our net if he picked the pass), and some of them went south on him. But, he also consistently skated the puck out of our end under pressure, gained the opposing blueline under control and established forward zone control and used his legs to cover mistakes consistently. If he's not doggedly against learning like Gardiner seems to be, there's a lot of room for optimism

I think there is a difference between making risky plays and getting burned for it and having low IQ. To me, having low IQ is not being able to anticipate plays or understand what's going on, or something along those lines. Decision making is a part of it, but I think that can be heavily influenced by teammates and coaching. I think it happens more in the AHL or other lesser leagues that his teammates can't quite pick up on what he wants to do quickly enough and things end up going south, whereas an NHL player might be able to read and react properly. And of course coaches can easily tell him when and when not to take risks

 

[Randy Randerson]

I think there is a difference between making risky plays and getting burned for it and having low IQ. To me, having low IQ is not being able to anticipate plays or understand what's going on, or something along those lines. Decision making is a part of it, but I think that can be heavily influenced by teammates and coaching. I think it happens more in the AHL or other lesser that his teammates can't quite pick up on what he wants to do quickly enough and things end up going south, whereas an NHL player might be able to read and react properly. And of course coaches can easily tell him when and when not to take risks

That's fair, there's lots of interpretation of "IQ", Liljegren's processing speed seemed fine

there was more than a few times in those highlight packs (which I recommend) that he was making those plays where there was a lower risk/simpler option in a situation that the payoff for the play working was low (ie. his defense partner gets the puck behind his own net) and the risk was high (ie. the forechecker gets the puck behind our net with an open pass option right in front of our net). If we can teach him when not to make a risky play and when to go for it (like we never seem to have been able to with Gardiner) I think he'll be a tremendously positive impact player and will have the wheels to cover his own mistakes and his linemates' mistakes

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

That's fair, there's lots of interpretation of "IQ", Liljegren's processing speed seemed fine

there was more than a few times in those highlight packs (which I recommend) that he was making those plays where there was a lower risk/simpler option in a situation that the payoff for the play working was low (ie. his defense partner gets the puck behind his own net) and the risk was high (ie. the forechecker gets the puck behind our net with an open pass option right in front of our net). If we can teach him when not to make a risky play and when to go for it (like we never seem to have been able to with Gardiner) I think he'll be a tremendously positive impact player and will have the wheels to cover his own mistakes and his linemates' mistakes

yeah that's fair enough.

I know it's a shitty sample, but I think last year's preseason was a look into what he sort of dynamic he can bring to the team. He was the best Leafs' defender at moving the puck out of the zone, and that's such a hugely important dynamic. Especially on the right side. So yeah I hope he gets his warts sorted out, but I think for the most part his decision making and physical tools can make him a very good puck mover at the next level. I think he needs strength and consistency to make it happen

 

[Randy Randerson]

yeah that's fair enough.

I know it's a ****ty sample, but I think last year's preseason was a look into what he sort of dynamic he can bring to the team. He was the best Leafs' defender at moving the puck out of the zone, and that's such a hugely important dynamic. Especially on the right side. So yeah I hope he gets his warts sorted out, but I think for the most part his decision making and physical tools can make him a very good puck mover at the next level. I think he needs strength and consistency to make it happen

I'm bullish on him in general, I think he'll be an nhler because of his legs, has a very decent chance of being a top pairing guy and a fair chance of being a #1, a godsend for our needs

I think he's also shown that the processing speed issue was the mono

 

[mapleleaf979]

I mean.. What? First of all McAvoy is a years older. Second of all the AHL is in the top 3 levels of skill in the world. These guys are better than playing "top prospects" who are all in the OHL. Third, there are many many more D that get ruined than succeed by being thrown to the wolves. Edmonton has ruined countless guys doing exactly this.

Development is not linear nor is it a set of standards that you must meet it or else be a bust.

Agreed. But Liljegren will never touch McAvoy's ceiling because IQ is something u cant give a player, i.e. - the split second instincts, reading people. McAvoy can win a Norris trophy the way he controls the game.

 

[kb]

Agreed. But Liljegren will never touch McAvoy's ceiling because IQ is something u cant give a player, i.e. - the split second instincts, reading people. McAvoy can win a Norris trophy the way he controls the game.

I disagree on the ceiling. I think that Liljegren did incredibly well for A) being 18 years old in a NA men's pro league, and B) having never played on the smaller ice surface before. That is a huge adjustment, and he did very well. He was an 18 year old playing top-4 minutes in the AHL playoffs.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Agreed. But Liljegren will never touch McAvoy's ceiling because IQ is something u cant give a player, i.e. - the split second instincts, reading people. McAvoy can win a Norris trophy the way he controls the game.

Talk about putting the cart before the horse. Mcavoy has shown he's a solid young defenseman, yet has not shown Norris level play or separation from his peers yet. I don't expect Liljegren to have his impact but I think lots here are understating his potential significantly. His skating technique is fabulous. His hands are great, he moves the puck effortlessly and has shown above average power on his wrist and slap shot for a player as young as him. Liljegren could easily become a #1 dman if he continues to build strength and explosiveness.

 

[TeamBester]

He also has some grit.

 

[Kamiccolo]

Agreed. But Liljegren will never touch McAvoy's ceiling because IQ is something u cant give a player, i.e. - the split second instincts, reading people. McAvoy can win a Norris trophy the way he controls the game.

Yeah, Lilly is a RD Gardiner, which is still a fantastic defensemen. He will be a solid 40 point 2nd pair guy for us. He won't win a norris.

 

[GuthrieGovan]

Already said, but I agree, we should let him develop more.

He's only 19. We need defense, but we shouldn't rush him.

He'll be 20 by the end of the regular season, bring him up next year judging by how he looks in the AHL this year.

 

[IceColdBear]

You don't learn to defend against Crosby by practicing defending against Komarov and Ennis or AHL plugs. McAvoy was thrown into first pairing minutes in the playoffs as his first real taste of NHL competition, some guys are just ready.

Ideally Liljegren would be playing in some kind of league full of other teams top prospects. Unfortunately the AHL isn't that, most of it is full of grinding lifers and small skilled guys with huge holes in their games. Both of those types are the ideal candidate for Liljegren to abuse with his speed in ways that won't work in the NHL.

Liljegren was the youngest D in the AHL last year. Most guys his age are playing in the CHL against teenagers, the majority of which won't even make the AHL.

You may have some irrational disdain for the AHL as a developmental league, but it is a much higher level of competition than where most players compete in their draft + 1 years.

He was heavily sheltered with the Marlies last season because, on a championship AHL team, he wasn't one of the four best defenders. I was at game 7 of the Calder Cup finals, I would be shocked if he played even ten minutes of that game. I would say there's no way he is on the Leafs roster to start next season, which is fine, he's a 19 year old defender who still has a lot to learn.

I'm excited to see how he handles the next step of taking the reins as one of the key cogs on the Marlies blueline this season.

 

[Obliviate]

Why are people setting timelines? No player is the same. What does it matter if they are 21, 22, 23? Johnsson is 23 and look how far he has come. Montour only made the NHL at 23 and he is a good promising D.

I think he needs one full year, minimum. He needs to become the 31 D on the Marlies. He needs top PP time, PK time, and shutdown minutes. Really stress test him and pull back when he gets overwhelmed. Let him get stronger. If he makes that step this year, then so be it. If he doesn't, give him his 20 year old year.

Eventually he will have an awesome season. When he does, doing the above, send him back down AGAIN. Let him over ripen. Give him 30-40 games to show last year wasn't a fluke and then bring him up.

Biggest difference between us then and now was we would rush him to the NHL this year. The team is good, he would be a bottom pairing guy at best. He isn't a huge upgrade on Carrick at this time.

Let him develop.

Well said.

I will be watching the Oilers this year as they likely try to shoehorn a defensively inept Evan Bouchard into their lineup to fill a hole. History foretells how this will end for them.

 

[Obliviate]

You don't learn to defend against Crosby by practicing defending against Komarov and Ennis or AHL plugs. McAvoy was thrown into first pairing minutes in the playoffs as his first real taste of NHL competition, some guys are just ready.

Ideally Liljegren would be playing in some kind of league full of other teams top prospects. Unfortunately the AHL isn't that, most of it is full of grinding lifers and small skilled guys with huge holes in their games. Both of those types are the ideal candidate for Liljegren to abuse with his speed in ways that won't work in the NHL.

You learn to defend against Crosby by learning your position, getting reps so you know how to stay composed and minimize mistakes. You don't need to get fed to the wolves to do that.

 

[meefer]

I will have greater confidence in Liljegren's ability to become an 1/2/3/4 defenseman with the Leafs after he's become an impact defenseman with the Marlies. That said, I'm impressed with his skills, I believe his 'IQ' will be better known in 4/5 months than it is today and that allowing him to develop - not overbake - in the AHL offers Timothy the experience he'll need to improve his weaknesses. How long he remains with the Marlies will be determined by how the coach uses him and how well he adjusts to that usage.

 

[Obliviate]

I will have greater confidence in Liljegren's ability to become an 1/2/3/4 defenseman with the Leafs after he's become an impact defenseman with the Marlies. That said, I'm impressed with his skills, I believe his 'IQ' will be better known in 4/5 months than it is today and that allowing him to develop - not overbake - in the AHL offers Timothy the experience he'll need to improve his weaknesses. How long he remains with the Marlies will be determined by how the coach uses him and how well he adjusts to that usage.

He did quite well given his age. A good start to build on.

 

[meefer]

He did quite well given his age. A good start to build on.

Indeed, his first season was very impressive given he was on the back end of mono, had to move to a new country, adjust to a new rink size, a new style of play etc. I'm excited about his potential and just wish to see more development before he is asked to play in the top league in the world.

 

[luvdahattymatty]

McAvoy played with Chara those playoffs. No one in the nhl messes with Chara i repeat no one. Much different for a young guy coming up to get paired with a beast like Chara. The Leafs have no one remotely close. So you cant make any type of comparision like that. The Leafs are going to take their time developing him both physically and also learning Canadian game. He will come up once he is better than either Zaitsev or Gards who he will replace. Once Gards goes next year then he likely comes up to fill the void unless the Leafs make a trade.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

Why are people advocating to pair him with the turnover and icing machine that is Jake Gardiner?

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

 

[Gary Nylund]

Talk about putting the cart before the horse. Mcavoy has shown he's a solid young defenseman, yet has not shown Norris level play or separation from his peers yet. I don't expect Liljegren to have his impact but I think lots here are understating his potential significantly. His skating technique is fabulous. His hands are great, he moves the puck effortlessly and has shown above average power on his wrist and slap shot for a player as young as him. Liljegren could easily become a #1 dman if he continues to build strength and explosiveness.

I agree. It's way too early to say that Liljegren's ceiling is this or that, as of right now, the sky's the limit IMHO.