Lies and myths

[Habs Icing]

The Habs and Boston accorded the same amount of goals in that series. In other words, Tim Thomas and Carey Price let in the same amount of goals. The Bruins won 3 OT games in the series. So did Price also play like an Elite Goaltender? He even had a greater SV% in that series than Thomas did. At some point the difference needs to come from beyond goaltending.

The only one failing to see anything is you and your very simplistic way to see a hockey i.e., everything being reduced to the goalkeepers performance.

. Considering that the Habs had a higher goals for against the Bruins than the other teams the Bruins met, I wouldn't put the blame on the Habs forwards like you did in your "No Excuses" post.



My opinion is that Price - unless he is sheltered by an overwhelming powerhouse team -will not win anything at this level.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

Bruins won 4 games
Habs 3.

The last time I checked the record books for those series Price played with the Habs and Thomas with the Bruins. Considering that the Habs had a higher goals for against the Bruins than the other teams the Bruins met, I wouldn't put the blame on the Habs forwards like you did in your "No Excuses" post.

Thomas helped to win 4 games. Price helped to win 3.

My opinion is that Price - unless he is sheltered by an overwhelming powerhouse team -will not win anything at this level. To date I haven't been proven wrong.

Did you see the defense we had against them? If Gionta roofs that puck in OT instead of shooting it directly at Thomas we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Bruins won 4 games
Habs 3.

The last time I checked the record books for those series Price played with the Habs and Thomas with the Bruins. Considering that the Habs had a higher goals for against the Bruins than the other teams the Bruins met, I wouldn't put the blame on the Habs forwards like you did in your "No Excuses" post.

Thomas helped to win 4 games. Price helped to win 3.

My opinion is that Price - unless he is sheltered by an overwhelming powerhouse team -will not win anything at this level.

Most goalies won't win cups without a powerhouse team dude.

And aat the end of the day this team isn't going to win anything as constructed. I don't care if you replace Price with Rinne or Lundqvist or Rask... team is going nowhere right now. We aren't good enough and we're not built for the playoffs.

 

[Andy]

. Considering that the Habs had a higher goals for against the Bruins than the other teams the Bruins met, I wouldn't put the blame on the Habs forwards like you did in your "No Excuses" post.



My opinion is that Price - unless he is sheltered by an overwhelming powerhouse team -will not win anything at this level.

The bolded is false. The Canadiens scored 17 goals against the Bruins that year, Tampa scored 21 goals against Boston that year.

Boston scored 23 goals in 7 games against the Canucks
Boston scored 21 goals in 7 games against the Bolts
Boston scored 20 goals in 4 games against the Flyers
Boston scored 17 goals in 7 games against the Canadiens

So Price and Montreal conceded the least goals against the Bruins all playoffs long and somehow the loss is still Price's fault and a reflection that he is not Elite?

In 7 games against Boston, Thomas posted a 2.12 GAA, and a .925SV, while Price had a 2.11 GAA and .936 SV%. Thomas was in net for 17 goals against, while Price in the net for 16 goals against, the 17th goal was an empty netter by Boston.

What else could Price have done? Why is Thomas considered to have played at an "Elite" level in the series, while Price wasn't "good" enough. Seriously, what a joke your post is.

As for the powerhouse comment, San Jose has been a powerhouse for many years and hasn't sniffed a cup. Vancouver has been a top team with a good goaltender and haven't been able to win a cup. The problem is not Price, but with the fact that you think games are won and lost by the performance of a goaltender.

 

[Et le But]

Topic creator posts on this board when the Habs win games; clearly doesn't have an agenda.

 

[Pricef*]

You see the truth is in the example you give but you fail to see it.

Was it that the Habs couldn't score or that Tim Thomas played like an elite goalie? By the way another example of an opposing goalie outplaying Price.

If you look at Boston's GAA for those playoffs you'll see it was 2.12. So what happened in the Boston-Mtl series happened to all the other teams the Bruins met. Theortically those teams were stronger teams yet TT kept them in check.. This leads me to think that Tim Thomas was the reason the Habs - as you put it - couldn't score. Not because the Mtl forwards lacked finish. Those weak ass Mtl forwards scored at a rate of 2.43 against Boston. More than the forwards of the rest of the teams that Boston was to meet. So this bullcrap that the forwards let down the team is just that bullcrap. Tim Thomas outplayed Price. It may have been by just one goal but those Habs teams in the 70s won alot of playoff games by one goal.

Now I ask you - since Price is such an elite goalie - when will he be the reason the opposing teams can't score? Or are we still drinking from Bobsled Gainey's Kool Aid punch bowl?

Well put. Thank you

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Well put. Thank you

Yeah, conveniently ignores that one goalie has one of the best D's in the league along with Chara and the other guy doesn't. But sure...

Obviously both things were completely equal for both goalies right so we should just look at who won and that will tell us who played better...

And I liked it better when your name was Careycosts.

 

[Whitesnake]

Dude, he posted a 2.11 GAA against the Bruins, what more could have Price done to "steal" that series? He already had 1 shutout in the 3 of the Canadiens wins. Like seriously, he let in 2 goals in the three wins he had. At the point his team needs to do something as well. To hold "he can't steal games and therefore sucks/overrated" against him is so narrow sighted and flawed.

As of now, he didn't. That's just a fact. Whether it's fair or not, the fact is that he didn't steal 1 series since he's with us. And a G.A.A. tells a whole lot...but we did put that series in 7 games. So with the same G.A.A., he could have stopped the Horton shot and we could have won on something else. Kostitsyn score on his insane scoring chance....and Price is said to have finally steal one. I mean, yes, it is unfair, not his fault if Kostitsyn doesn't score....but that's unfortunately the end result. Jonathan Quick is a rather ordinairy regular season goalie...and yet, he's seen as one of the best..why? 'Cause of his playoffs performance. So Price played great....but didn't steal anything. That's just on another level.

If Price steals game 3 or 4, we win that series. Boston won those games on our ice. Price gave 9 goals in these 2 games. That's way more in those 2 games that the series was played that even in a game 7 as most people expect the home team to win a game 7 on their turf. We scored 6 goals at game 3 and 4....4 goals in game 4...that should have been more than enough to win. He had some incredible games in there....but was under .900 in game 3 and 4 and 7. GAA over .900 and we win this series. I mean, as far as stealing..that's what he had to do. Halak wasn't perfect...even in those 3 rounds series....but against Washington...last 3 games.....974, .981, ..976. Against Pittsburgh, pretty much top notch except one game. In the meantime, we scored 20 goals against Wash..they scored 22. We scored 19 goals against Pittsburgh, they scored 18. It's not like Halak a much incredible and better offensive support compared to Price either.

Listen, Price wasn't the reason why we lost. THAT would be way too unfair, narrow sided and flawed. But he didn't steal the series. That's just a fact.

 

[CanadienShark]

DD belongs in the NHL.

Love your avatar.

 

[Andy]

As of now, he didn't. That's just a fact. Whether it's fair or not, the fact is that he didn't steal 1 series since he's with us. And a G.A.A. tells a whole lot...but we did put that series in 7 games. So with the same G.A.A., he could have stopped the Horton shot and we could have won on something else. Kostitsyn score on his insane scoring chance....and Price is said to have finally steal one. I mean, yes, it is unfair, not his fault if Kostitsyn doesn't score....but that's unfortunately the end result. Jonathan Quick is a rather ordinairy regular season goalie...and yet, he's seen as one of the best..why? 'Cause of his playoffs performance. So Price played great....but didn't steal anything. That's just on another level.

If Price steals game 3 or 4, we win that series. Boston won those games on our ice. Price gave 9 goals in these 2 games. That's way more in those 2 games that the series was played that even in a game 7 as most people expect the home team to win a game 7 on their turf. We scored 6 goals at game 3 and 4....4 goals in game 4...that should have been more than enough to win. He had some incredible games in there....but was under .900 in game 3 and 4 and 7. GAA over .900 and we win this series. I mean, as far as stealing..that's what he had to do. Halak wasn't perfect...even in those 3 rounds series....but against Washington...last 3 games.....974, .981, ..976. Against Pittsburgh, pretty much top notch except one game. In the meantime, we scored 20 goals against Wash..they scored 22. We scored 19 goals against Pittsburgh, they scored 18. It's not like Halak a much incredible and better offensive support compared to Price either.

Listen, Price wasn't the reason why we lost. THAT would be way too unfair, narrow sided and flawed. But he didn't steal the series. That's just a fact.

What i don't get is why "stealing" a series is the standard by which we judge whether or not Price is a good goaltender or not? Again it's so fundamentally flawed to analyze a performance/the ability of a goaltender by this arbitrary standard

His performance was excellent in that series, what more could you ask for? Seriously. He and the Canadiens conceded the least amount of goals against the the Bruins that year. I don't understand how that series can be held against him. Price did more than his part in that series. In the Canadiens 3 wins he allowed 2 goals. This "stealing" standard has become such an absurd notion amongst habs fans.

Price had a better SV% and GAA against average, and conceded less goals than his rival Thomas in that series, who was called an elite goaltender.

As for Halak's final three game SV%, Price put up .961 SV% in game 5 and still lost. You hold games 3 and 4 against him, but don't mention his performance in game 5 which still led to a loss. In game 5 and 6 he put up two performances of + .960 SV%, but only came out with one win. The goalie can only save pucks, he can't score goals. "stealing" game is not a solely a goaltending affair. At some point your team needs to take advantage of your goaltending performance.

 

[izzy75]

I've heard this opinion, masked as a fact (and hence, a lie) a few times:

Hockey fights are boring. So true, look how bored the fans are:

http://www.hockeyfights.com/forums/f9/calgary-colorado-11-8-13-a-191345/

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

As of now, he didn't. That's just a fact. Whether it's fair or not, the fact is that he didn't steal 1 series since he's with us. And a G.A.A. tells a whole lot...but we did put that series in 7 games. So with the same G.A.A., he could have stopped the Horton shot and we could have won on something else. Kostitsyn score on his insane scoring chance....and Price is said to have finally steal one. I mean, yes, it is unfair, not his fault if Kostitsyn doesn't score....but that's unfortunately the end result. Jonathan Quick is a rather ordinairy regular season goalie...and yet, he's seen as one of the best..why? 'Cause of his playoffs performance. So Price played great....but didn't steal anything. That's just on another level.

If Price steals game 3 or 4, we win that series. Boston won those games on our ice. Price gave 9 goals in these 2 games. That's way more in those 2 games that the series was played that even in a game 7 as most people expect the home team to win a game 7 on their turf. We scored 6 goals at game 3 and 4....4 goals in game 4...that should have been more than enough to win. He had some incredible games in there....but was under .900 in game 3 and 4 and 7. GAA over .900 and we win this series. I mean, as far as stealing..that's what he had to do. Halak wasn't perfect...even in those 3 rounds series....but against Washington...last 3 games.....974, .981, ..976. Against Pittsburgh, pretty much top notch except one game. In the meantime, we scored 20 goals against Wash..they scored 22. We scored 19 goals against Pittsburgh, they scored 18. It's not like Halak a much incredible and better offensive support compared to Price either.

Listen, Price wasn't the reason why we lost. THAT would be way too unfair, narrow sided and flawed. But he didn't steal the series. That's just a fact.

Okay. But sitting there and saying Thomas was better because the Bruins won is just dumb. It's like saying Crawford's a better goalie than Lundqvist because he won a cup.

If folks are expecting Price (or any other goalie for that matter) to take this roster to a cup, they'll be sorely disappointed. This team isn't going anywhere until we fix the D and get bigger up front. There's no getting around this. Ditto with Subban btw. He is arguably the best blueliner in the game and we're still not going to win anything until the team is fixed.

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Fast team, yes. Skilled? um, not high-end skililed. Pacioretty and Galchenyuk are our most potent offensive weapons. Gallagher is not quite as skilled but he works his tail off and gets points. Eller is inconsistent with point production but he is good at possession. Then, the rest of the team is full of "productive yet not very dominating players to play against".

 

[MakeTheGoalsLarger]

myth: the bell centre hot dogs are the best in town

 

[macavoy]

- We are a team in transition that could've been better with different offseason moves.

- We have a good young core moving forward: Price, Subban, Max, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Eller plus some stuff on the farm.

- We're not big - who the hell said we were?

- We're not contenders

- We should be doing better than we are

- We make inexplicable coaching decisions in terms of ice distribution

- I'd expect us to be a playoff team

These are facts, not lies and myths.



edit: in all seriousness though, this is exactly how I'd describe pur situation.

 

[Whitesnake]

What i don't get is why "stealing" a series is the standard by which we judge whether or not Price is a good goaltender or not? Again it's so fundamentally flawed to analyze a performance/the ability of a goaltender by this arbitrary standard

His performance was excellent in that series, what more could you ask for? Seriously. He and the Canadiens conceded the least amount of goals against the the Bruins that year. I don't understand how that series can be held against him. Price did more than his part in that series. In the Canadiens 3 wins he allowed 2 goals. This "stealing" standard has become such an absurd notion amongst habs fans.

Price had a better SV% and GAA against average, and conceded less goals than his rival Thomas in that series, who was called an elite goaltender.

As for Halak's final three game SV%, Price put up .961 SV% in game 5 and still lost. You hold games 3 and 4 against him, but don't mention his performance in game 5 which still led to a loss. In game 5 and 6 he put up two performances of + .960 SV%, but only came out with one win. The goalie can only save pucks, he can't score goals. "stealing" game is not a solely a goaltending affair. At some point your team needs to take advantage of your goaltending performance.

I wouldn't say Price is bad based on the fact that he didn't steal a series. But I'd say he's not an elite or top 5 because of it. My analysis. Not Crosby's. Not yours. Mine. It,s all semantics but that's what we've been discussing anyway at that point. Everybody mostly agrees that he's good. But people expect more based on the salary and based on how much we get rid of to make room for him at such a young age and still now. He can,t do it alone, geez, pretty sure you all know by now how ordinairy I think this team has been even during the time when Carbonneau let the team to a Conference championship, or last year, 2 periods I thought were the fluke years and still think it is. But "stealing a series" is a performance by goalie who in the end, you had no reasons to win mostly other than him, and still do. People in here kept saying how Boston wasn't such a great team and that in the end, it's Thomas who stole that Cup. I don't entirely agree as I believe Thomas made it more interesting based on his style than anything else....but he did have some incredible games. By the way, Thomas isn't called an elite goalie based on that series....he was called elite AFTER the playoffs has ended. Unfortunately, Price didn't have all those series to make a name for himself, Thomas did.

Yes, Price had some great games in that series...not sure where I say he didn't. And you will lose 1 that you probably should have won. But in the end, he lost 3 with under than .900. That's not 1.

In the end, will there ever be a goalie, that will be called elite even if he never sees a 3rd round? Even if it's never entirely his fault? Call him a victim of his team if you want....end result will still be the same. And I don,t entirely agree that he's not part of the team either. That while his team should have given him more offense, that he should not have given his team more consistency to let them feel secure about themselves.

Again, I don't hold that series entirely against him. Never. But as of now, I don't consider him top 5 or elite. Impossible. There's just no way nobody with such an absent playoffs record get that merit. As I keep saying, Marcel Dionne and Gilbert Perreault, 2 fantastic hockey player, hall of famers and all, have always that "but they never won anything" mark on them even if it's not their fault. Are they called elite? I hope they are based on how incredible they were individually...but some won't called them that based on that playoffs fact. You will rarely hear their names when it's time to talk about the ultimate greats....yet Dionne is 5th most regular season points total. 200 less games than Yzerman. Pretty sure that some will say Yzerman was more elite than him. Tough to compare eras....but playoffs will always be the key. So Price was very good in the playoffs....Yet, the idea of "playoffs" isn't just one series. And that's what you're getting....so far.

Okay. But sitting there and saying Thomas was better because the Bruins won is just dumb. It's like saying Crawford's a better goalie than Lundqvist because he won a cup.

If folks are expecting Price (or any other goalie for that matter) to take this roster to a cup, they'll be sorely disappointed. This team isn't going anywhere until we fix the D and get bigger up front. There's no getting around this. Ditto with Subban btw. He is arguably the best blueliner in the game and we're still not going to win anything until the team is fixed.

True. People who are saying Thomas was better are not comparing apples and oranges. They have in mind the whole playoffs of Thomas compared to Price only series. So OF COURSE, Thomas will look better with that in mind. But that's unfair comparison....unless we're agreeing that we were the better team.....were we?

 

[Church]

myth: the bell centre hot dogs are the best in town

Lies: the bell centre hot dogs are the best in town is a myth

 

[ECWHSWI]

You're a valuable asset to this board.

/thread

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I wouldn't say Price is bad based on the fact that he didn't steal a series. But I'd say he's not an elite or top 5 because of it. My analysis. Not Crosby's. Not yours. Mine. It,s all semantics but that's what we've been discussing anyway at that point. Everybody mostly agrees that he's good. But people expect more based on the salary and based on how much we get rid of to make room for him at such a young age and still now. He can,t do it alone, geez, pretty sure you all know by now how ordinairy I think this team has been even during the time when Carbonneau let the team to a Conference championship, or last year, 2 periods I thought were the fluke years and still think it is. But "stealing a series" is a performance by goalie who in the end, you had no reasons to win mostly other than him, and still do. People in here kept saying how Boston wasn't such a great team and that in the end, it's Thomas who stole that Cup. I don't entirely agree as I believe Thomas made it more interesting based on his style than anything else....but he did have some incredible games. By the way, Thomas isn't called an elite goalie based on that series....he was called elite AFTER the playoffs has ended. Unfortunately, Price didn't have all those series to make a name for himself, Thomas did.

Yes, Price had some great games in that series...not sure where I say he didn't. And you will lose 1 that you probably should have won. But in the end, he lost 3 with under than .900. That's not 1.

In the end, will there ever be a goalie, that will be called elite even if he never sees a 3rd round? Even if it's never entirely his fault? Call him a victim of his team if you want....end result will still be the same. And I don,t entirely agree that he's not part of the team either. That while his team should have given him more offense, that he should not have given his team more consistency to let them feel secure about themselves.

Again, I don't hold that series entirely against him. Never. But as of now, I don't consider him top 5 or elite. Impossible. There's just no way nobody with such an absent playoffs record get that merit. As I keep saying, Marcel Dionne and Gilbert Perreault, 2 fantastic hockey player, hall of famers and all, have always that "but they never won anything" mark on them even if it's not their fault. Are they called elite? I hope they are based on how incredible they were individually...but some won't called them that based on that playoffs fact. You will rarely hear their names when it's time to talk about the ultimate greats....yet Dionne is 5th most regular season points total. 200 less games than Yzerman. Pretty sure that some will say Yzerman was more elite than him. Tough to compare eras....but playoffs will always be the key. So Price was very good in the playoffs....Yet, the idea of "playoffs" isn't just one series. And that's what you're getting....so far.

But if we never advance would you say that Subban's not elite?

Wins are a team stat. And I used to think of Luongo as an elite goalie when he was in Florida and never made the playoffs at all.

True. People who are saying Thomas was better are not comparing apples and oranges. They have in mind the whole playoffs of Thomas compared to Price only series. So OF COURSE, Thomas will look better with that in mind. But that's unfair comparison....unless we're agreeing that we were the better team.....were we?

I think Thomas got a LOT of support from the best defensive blueliner in the league and a great defensive team. And I think it's a big reason they won the cup.

I think if Price played for the Bruins his numbers would be far better than they are over the course of his career and I think he'd have at least a cup. Thomas had the best numbers in the league and now Rask does. I don't think it's coincidence that they've played behind this team.

And Price's numbers (if I remember correctly) were actually better than Thomas' that series.

 

[Andy]

And Price's numbers (if I remember correctly) were actually better than Thomas' that series.

They were, he had accorded less goals (16, the 17th goal was the empty netter), had a better SV% .936 to .926. GAA avg was the same pretty much 2.11 for Price 2.12 for Thomas.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

These are facts, not lies and myths.



edit: in all seriousness though, this is exactly how I'd describe pur situation.

Yup, sorry. I misread the title...

 

[macavoy]

Yup, sorry. I misread the title...

I use to disagree with a lot of stuff you say but you have solid analysis lately. I think you just go on tangents at times that I disagree with.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I use to disagree with a lot of stuff you say but you have solid analysis lately. I think you just go on tangents at times that I disagree with.

Well, I used to argue for a rebuild. Radical changes because I thought they were needed. My thoughts were that we needed elite talent to be able to win and that it's hard to find other than high picks. I still believe this.

But we've gotten some top picks now and we landed Subban as well as making a couple of rebuild moves (Eller, Pac) so I look at our team and I think for the most part we have rebuilt. Now we have to add the depth. The radical moves aren't as necessary.

I'd still think about moving Markov though and I know that's not a popular argument.

 

[macavoy]

Well, I used to argue for a rebuild. Radical changes because I thought they were needed. My thoughts were that we needed elite talent to be able to win and that it's hard to find other than high picks. I still believe this.

But we've gotten some top picks now and we landed Subban as well as making a couple of rebuild moves (Eller, Pac) so I look at our team and I think for the most part we have rebuilt. Now we have to add the depth. The radical moves aren't as necessary.

I'd still think about moving Markov though and I know that's not a popular argument.

Yea, I keep 180'ing about Markov myself.


He seems to be transitioning well to not being fast Markov and I kind of like his tough guy angle that he is adopting.


I also think I have a good solution to our center situation. I think Pleks would make the ideal left winger for Eller.

 

[Whitesnake]

But if we never advance would you say that Subban's not elite?

Well there will always be a big question mark if he never does. Just like there is with Dionne and Perreault despite people knowing FULL WELL they have nothing to do with the ordinairy performances of their team. But then....if you pair not going too far in the playoffs with 5 Norris trophies and 8 nominations over a 15-year career...yes...chances are he'll still be called Elite. Has to be the case for Price though if he doesn't have tremendous playoffs. There is a way for a goalie to be an extraordinairy goalie even if your team doesn't provide you a whole lot of offensive support. And frankly, usually, people who gives nominations and trophies have that "Well without him they are nothing" type of mentality so if in the end, our teams sucks for the next 15 years and yet Price is able to have a .915-.920 Save%...chances are he'll be recognized and be in trophy nominations....But true that it will be harder to come without a great team. Point is...it's all great to say and think that with a great team, Price would already have 10 cups already.....but that can't be an argument as we don't know.

Wins are a team stat. And I used to think of Luongo as an elite goalie when he was in Florida and never made the playoffs at all.

Still...people keep saying but he never won anything.....or even worst....he seems to enjoy playing in Florida where's there's no pressure....etc. But then there's some international play, trophy nominations.....still succeeded, despite not winning the Vezina, to be able to rack some personal stats. But not winning the trophy....it might mean for some that he is indeed NOT an elite goalie.

I think if Price played for the Bruins his numbers would be far better than they are over the course of his career and I think he'd have at least a cup. Thomas had the best numbers in the league and now Rask does. I don't think it's coincidence that they've played behind this team.

Problem with that is that you can say this for everybody. If Koivu would have had 2 great wingers, he'd be the best point getter in the history of the Habs.....etc. You can think that, totally entitled to, and probably totally right...but it doesn't hold water as you could say whatever you want to prove a point without the fact that it ever can be checked. If THAT great player plays for a much worst team, he is able to make that team better or would he have a worst record etc.

And Price's numbers (if I remember correctly) were actually better than Thomas' that series.

Yes they were....but you are not going to convince me that it PROOVES that Price is a great playoff goalie...that would be really pushing it to the extreme. He has 1 2-rounder....3 times 4-games....and 1 7-game. I mean, there's A LOT of exagerration when it comes to evaluating Price....by both sides. Some are saying that Price already proveon he's a playoff series....it makes no sense to me. That's just like saying Price was incredible for the Juniors with his OT AND THE SHOOTOUTS.....shootouts were he allowed 4 goals out of 7 shots. But he's not awful either and not bringing his team further DOES NOT mean he's the weakest link nor should it even mean that he's anything below good. But call it great timing, he will have one day to pair his play with going far in the playoffs.

Anyway, this is turning into another Carey Price thread.....I'll switch this to the Price threads and let the other lies and myths be discussed....