Let's talk defense...

[Moskau]

Pysyk played the left side most of last season.

Doesn't mean it's optimal for him no matter what he says. And quite honestly he wasn't as good last season even in the AHL as he was the year prior.

If his game doesn't suffer at all or even just marginally then that's great and helps the team a lot. But I'd probably explore every option until then.

Benning said a week ago that Vrbata and Hamhuis wouldn't receive a contract extension offer until after the season started... well today there's news that Vancouver needs to clear cap space before the season starts. It's a long shot but I would be all over that.

 

[joshjull]

Josh Gorges is NOT defensively sound. He's terrible defensively. He's as bad defensively as Benoit and Meszaros because he simply can't skate or pass the puck. Just because he's terrible offensively doesn't mean he's good defensively. The only thing Gorges is good at is picking himself up off the ice around the crease area after he loses another battle. The guy is simply one of the worst players in the NHL BEFORE his major surgery. Even on the 3rd pairing I'm not expecting much from him.

This is quite a ridiculously over the top post.

A healthy Gorges was not close to what he was being asked to be last year. That being a top pairing dman getting 22-23mins a night. Playing that role greatly exposed the flaws in his game. Then even worse, he played those minutes on basically 1.5 legs for about half his games in the lineup.

If he's healthy, and that's a big if, he should be fine with fewer minutes. Something along the lines of 18-20mins.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Josh Gorges is NOT defensively sound. He's terrible defensively. He's as bad defensively as Benoit and Meszaros because he simply can't skate or pass the puck. Just because he's terrible offensively doesn't mean he's good defensively. The only thing Gorges is good at is picking himself up off the ice around the crease area after he loses another battle. The guy is simply one of the worst players in the NHL BEFORE his major surgery. Even on the 3rd pairing I'm not expecting much from him.

This is why people hate advanced stats.

 

[Revelate]

Doesn't mean it's optimal for him no matter what he says. And quite honestly he wasn't as good last season even in the AHL as he was the year prior.

If his game doesn't suffer at all or even just marginally then that's great and helps the team a lot. But I'd probably explore every option until then.

Benning said a week ago that Vrbata and Hamhuis wouldn't receive a contract extension offer until after the season started... well today there's news that Vancouver needs to clear cap space before the season starts. It's a long shot but I would be all over that.

i'm sure we'd be all over Hamhuis, but the whole NTC thing kills that imo

 

[Jame]

So petty. I'll think he's awesome. I could say that about a 3rd liner who isn't that talented but is good in his own zone and you'll think he's awesome.

You did, you said it about Ryan Kesler, Joe Pavelski and Ryan O'reilly. I thought they were awesome. Great job

And Franson isn't signing for 3 years or less. He will want a long term deal.

I'm sure he WANTED a long term deal. But the market doesn't seem to be offering him what he wants.

Nothing wrong with 4 or 5 years since he will only be 32 or 33 by the end of the deal and I doubt a deal for Cody freakin Franson will hinder the Sabres from extending the RFAS . He will get $5 mil max . Probably less.

I'd hate to have any money tied up in a 3rd pairing defensive liability when it comes time to start extending the core. That would suck.

 

[Jame]

Josh Gorges is NOT defensively sound. He's terrible defensively. He's as bad defensively as Benoit and Meszaros because he simply can't skate or pass the puck. Just because he's terrible offensively doesn't mean he's good defensively. The only thing Gorges is good at is picking himself up off the ice around the crease area after he loses another battle. The guy is simply one of the worst players in the NHL BEFORE his major surgery. Even on the 3rd pairing I'm not expecting much from him.

lol you win this week's exaggeration award

 

[Jame]

Doesn't mean it's optimal for him no matter what he says. And quite honestly he wasn't as good last season even in the AHL as he was the year prior.

If his game doesn't suffer at all or even just marginally then that's great and helps the team a lot. But I'd probably explore every option until then.

Benning said a week ago that Vrbata and Hamhuis wouldn't receive a contract extension offer until after the season started... well today there's news that Vancouver needs to clear cap space before the season starts. It's a long shot but I would be all over that.

Hamhuis would be ideal. But i doubt he waives.

 

[Moskau]

This is quite a ridiculously over the top post.

A healthy Gorges was not close to what he was being asked to be last year. That being a top pairing dman getting 22-23mins a night. Playing that role greatly exposed the flaws in his game. Then even worse, he played those minutes on basically 1.5 legs for about half his games in the lineup.

If he's healthy, and that's a big if, he should be fine with fewer minutes. Something along the lines of 18-20mins.

He plays every season on 1.5 legs because the only thing he's good at is blocking shots.

Let's be honest when Gorges went out of the line-up his minutes weren't exactly eaten up by guys any better suited to be a top pairing D-man. And yet the Sabres defense got quite a bit better with him out of the lineup. Look back at the hilarious shifts where Buffalo was pinned in their zone for 2+ minutes early in the season. Gorges was on for almost every single one of those. As Travist Yost said, if you're a defensive defensemen and you can't skate or pass the puck then you aren't a defensive defensemen you're a bad Hockey player. Throw in that he loses nearly all of his battles and he's a useless Hockey player coming off a major surgery.

 

[Jame]

He plays every season on 1.5 legs because the only thing he's good at is blocking shots.

Let's be honest when Gorges went out of the line-up his minutes weren't exactly eaten up by guys any better suited to be a top pairing D-man. And yet the Sabres defense got quite a bit better with him out of the lineup. Look back at the hilarious shifts where Buffalo was pinned in their zone for 2+ minutes early in the season. Gorges was on for almost every single one of those. As Travist Yost said, if you're a defensive defensemen and you can't skate or pass the puck then you aren't a defensive defensemen you're a bad Hockey player. Throw in that he loses nearly all of his battles and he's a useless Hockey player coming off a major surgery.

Robyn Regehr says otherwise.

 

[TehDoak]

RE: Gorges

When he's healthy, he's a decent 3/4 d-man. We had him playing top pairing and he got exposed a bit. He's not a top pairing guy. He's decently mobile and is a shot blocking machine and can work a good PK.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

He's pretty terrible defensively, for a guy who skates well, he's got terrible mobility... but, the things he does well... do fit our needs to a certain extent.

The guy can run a PP and score.... 20th in GF per 60

I don't want some long term deal... but I don't mind Franson eating up some cap space over the next few years (3 or less). I mean, I'm sure I'll hate him... but whatever.

Ultimately... I'd rather sign a flawed player that fills in that "3 year we dont care about cap space" window... than trade assets for someone.

(i don't want to trade Larsson... )

I can't agree with that thinking. You were accusing people of wanting to make a trade for the sake of trading - but this is exactly the same - signing someone for the sake of signing.

No interest in Franson personally - just doesn't seem a good fit in any shape or form.

I'm totally with you on Larsson - but is he the one to get moved if they make a trade ? There's other options.

What is clear is - despite what you were arguing last night - is that there needs to be an addition. Murray getting linked to so many players would suggest that he thinks there needs to be an addition as well.

 

[Jame]

I can't agree with that thinking. You were accusing people of wanting to make a trade for the sake of trading - but this is exactly the same - signing someone for the sake of signing.

No they are exactly very different things

Trading for someone requires using assets
Signing a free agent requires nothing but irrelevant cap space

No interest in Franson personally - just doesn't seem a good fit in any shape or form.

There's a pretty obvious fit in the shape of a PP trigger man.

I'm totally with you on Larsson - but is he the one to get moved if they make a trade ? There's other options.

If we are getting a player of value back, yea, he's probably the one to get moved. If we are getting a rental like Quincey or a dump like Carle, then no... he's not the one.

What is clear is - despite what you were arguing last night - is that there needs to be an addition.

No, there does not NEED to be an addition. That's what is clear.

Murray getting linked to so many players would suggest that he thinks there needs to be an addition as well.

Yes, Murray has stated that he wants to acquire an LD. Don't mistake desire for need.

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

You did, you said it about Ryan Kesler, Joe Pavelski and Ryan O'reilly. I thought they were awesome. Great job


.

Actually I meant Jordan Staal and Sean Couturier. You know the players you advocated trading Tyler Myers (Staal) and the #2 overall pick in 2014 (Couturier) for. Great job. If offensive output is even hinted at you resort to your antics and pot shots like mentioning scoring or a players offensive production is a bad thing.

And again, Franson at 4.5 or 5 per for 4-5 years will not affect the cap that much. By the time 15 and 23 need 8 year deals the cap will have gone up, Gorges, McCormick etc are off the books and Moulsons 5 per will have one year left. And Kane's cap hit could very well already be off the books if he decides to test free agency which he has a significant chance of doing. Adding a vet like Franson who is only turning 28 would be a decent move. 400 career games and some postseason experience. Not a bad option as the #4/5 dman at best here who will clearly be behind Risto, Bogosian, Pysyk and likely McCabe. If he wants 5/$20m then I'd gladly sign him. Not going to find a vet dman for much cheaper outside of the 6/7 types like we already signed this summer.

 

[Jame]

Actually I meant Jordan Staal and Sean Couturier. You know the players you advocated trading Tyler Myers (Staal) and the #2 overall pick in 2014 (Couturier) for. Great job. If offensive output is even hinted at you resort to your antics and pot shots like mentioning scoring or a players offensive production is a bad thing.

I've corrected you on this multiple times. In a thread titled, "What would you want for the #2 pick" I discussed Couturier... that's different then choosing/advocating a trade. Try to comprehend the difference.

Neither are as hilarious as "Derek Roy is a better hockey player than Joe Pavelski"

And again, Franson at 4.5 or 5 per for 4-5 years will not affect the cap that much.

Having 4.5 - 5.0 locked up in a bottom pairing defensemen limited to special teams would simply be stupid.

By the time 15 and 23 need 8 year deals the cap will have gone up, Gorges, McCormick etc are off the books and Moulsons 5 per will have one year left.

Those are excellent reasons to pay a middling defensemen 5 per year...

And Kane's cap hit could very well already be off the books if he decides to test free agency which he has a significant chance of doing.

Too bad we didn't have an extra 5 million in cap space to retain him

Adding a vet like Franson who is only turning 28 would be a decent move. 400 career games and some postseason experience. Not a bad option as the #4/5 dman at best here who will clearly be behind Risto, Bogosian, Pysyk and likely McCabe.

Why are we investing long term in a guy who will likely be 5th on our depth chart? that's absolutely NOT how you build and maintain a contender

If he wants 5/$20m then I'd gladly sign him. Not going to find a vet dman for much cheaper outside of the 6/7 types like we already signed this summer.

Yea, that's the thing... Franson is not worth 5 times what we pay the depth guys.

 

[dotcommunism]

No, there does not NEED to be an addition. That's what is clear.

I'm going to disagree on this. The Sabres do need to add a defenseman. Maybe not for Buffalo's sake, mind you, but Rochester is going to be in pretty sore shape if all of Ruhwedel, McCabe and Donovan are up with Buffalo. Frankly, I'd rather see at least two of those three in Rochester. If Gorges isn't able to play, or the Sabres decide to carry 8 D, then that's going to necessitate picking up at least one defensemen.

 

[Jame]

I'm going to disagree on this. The Sabres do need to add a defenseman. Maybe not for Buffalo's sake, mind you, but Rochester is going to be in pretty sore shape if all of Ruhwedel, McCabe and Donovan are up with Buffalo. Frankly, I'd rather see at least two of those three in Rochester. If Gorges isn't able to play, or the Sabres decide to carry 8 D, then that's going to necessitate picking up at least one defensemen.

I think that's a little different than what we are talking about though. They don't have to add an NHL defensemen. If they DO, yes it would push a good body down to Roch. If they DON'T add another NHL defensemen, they will need to add a body or two for Roch

I would guess it looks something like this right now... although im not sure if there have been any Rochester contracts added.

Coloaicovo-Bogo
Weber-Risto
Donovan-Pysyk
x Ruhwedel
IR Gorges

Rochester
McCabe-Sanguinetti
Austin-Leduc

 

[Dubi Doo]

I do believe a LHD is a need. We don't need to spend a crazy amount of assets on one. A Gorges-esque trade would be perfect. A 2nd round pick for an aging top-4 defenseman that we can get 2-3 decent years out of. THat way when injuries hit Rochester won't be depleted, and Risto/Pysk don't need to play LHD.

 

[joshjull]

@ Moskau

I'm pretty sure the entire point of putting Pysyk on the left side in Rochester last year was for next season and beyond. It gave him a chance to acclimate to the left side where the openings in the top 4 are. Murray knows Pysyk is not going to dislodge Risto or Bogo from the top 2 right spots. But he certainly has the talent to play in the top 4.

Pysyk said by the end of the year he felt comfortable playing the left side. If he's ready to roll on the left. It really gives us a shot at at least one very strong top 4 pairing using 2 of Risto, Bogo and Pysyk.

 

[Revelate]

I think that's a little different than what we are talking about though. They don't have to add an NHL defensemen. If they DO, yes it would push a good body down to Roch. If they DON'T add another NHL defensemen, they will need to add a body or two for Roch

I would guess it looks something like this right now... although im not sure if there have been any Rochester contracts added.

Coloaicovo-Bogo
Weber-Risto
Donovan-Pysyk
x Ruhwedel
IR Gorges

Rochester
McCabe-Sanguinetti
Austin-Leduc

rip rochester

 

[dotcommunism]

I think that's a little different than what we are talking about though. They don't have to add an NHL defensemen. If they DO, yes it would push a good body down to Roch. If they DON'T add another NHL defensemen, they will need to add a body or two for Roch

I would guess it looks something like this right now... although im not sure if there have been any Rochester contracts added.

Coloaicovo-Bogo
Weber-Risto
Donovan-Pysyk
x Ruhwedel
IR Gorges

Rochester
McCabe-Sanguinetti
Austin-Leduc

An issue is the AHL vet limit. Guys like Donovan and Ruhwedel and McCabe don't count against the vet limit at all. I think most guys floating around out there who could take their place at the AHL level would count against the AHL vet limit. So it'd be better to push the non-vets like Donovan or Ruhwedel or McCabe down to the AHL with marginal NHLers, imo.

Now, if they could pick up another capable AHL defenseman who doesn't count as a vet (260 pro games in the NHL, AHL or top level European leagues), then adding another NHL body is less of a concern.

Also, I agree that's what the defensive depth chart looks like right now. They absolutely need to add at least another defenseman or two for Rochester regardless.

 

[Sabre Dance]

I'm fine with starting the season with what we have if we can't find a top 4 LHD this summer. Trades can happen during the season. We can learn a little about what we have also.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

When the off season started we all were talking about WHO Murray would get for LD, not whether we needed one...and none of us were talking about a 3rd pair guy like Sanguinetti.

Seems like now the definition of "need" is being changed up, but it's unnecessary semantics. If we want as good a dcorps as possible Murray should be signing or trading for a top four guy...like he's already tried to. We don't need one, in the same way we don't need ROR to shelter Eichel or Reinhart.

Not acquiring a top four LD this summer would be a let down AND a problem going forward, that simple.

 

[Sabre Dance]

If they sign Franson my D.

Coloaicovo - Bogosian
Weber - Ristolainen
Pysyk - Franson

Franson gets big power play minutes.

 

[CaptPantalones]

All this talk about Pysyk, people do recall bylsma said he would like to move ristolainen over right? I think it's much more likely that happens.

Risto-bogosian
Weber/McCabe-Pysyk
Weber/colo/gorges/McCabe-franson

 

[Zman5778]

All this talk about Pysyk, people do recall bylsma said he would like to move ristolainen over right? I think it's much more likely that happens.

I much more recall him saying that he'd talk to Risto and maybe try him on the left. Very much seemed to me like him going to try everything to see what sticks.

Not that he's set on Risto moving or even if that his preferred outcome.