Lets talk about the Flames defense

The Nuge

Some say…
Jan 26, 2011
27,421
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British Columbia
I agree that outside of the 3M line our forward's defense is atrocious. However, at their best Giordano and Brodie are both top 15 D. Problem is Brodie hasn't been like that since 2015-2016. Giordano's offense has dipped as well. Hamilton is a good 2D, Hamonic is a lowend 4D sometimes playing like a 5th D. Stone is a good 5D, while Kulak is a solid 6D. Bartkowski is absolutely terrible. He shouldn't even be a 7D in the ECHL.

I actually completely agree with you for the most part. Gio was unquestionably an elite #1 dman for a stretch. The problem is, at his age, when he’s not playing at that level anymore, I’m not sure how much you can expect him to return to being that guy. It certainly could happen, but IMO, him and Hamilton are high end #2s.

The only guy I really disagree about is Brodie. He’s never impressed me nearly as much as Gio and Hamilton. He was very good when he was out there with an elite Gio, but that’s the case with a lot of guys. He reminds me a lot of Barrie in the sense that he’s got lots of offensive ability, but just can’t translate it into being a top dman. They can both play on the top pairing with a true #1, but as soon as the other guy can’t carry them, they look worse. Brodie IMO is, and has always been, more of a #3 dman.
 

Fig

Absolute Horse Shirt
Dec 15, 2014
12,973
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My two cents, not the opinion of all my fellow fans...

I personally don't feel it's a systems thing, the problems are more often than not from bad pinches, bad passes and just poor decisions in general.

Disagree. I don't believe you can rule out the system as a problem. We have literally had at least 3 iterations of of Gully's system. And I'm not talking about tweaking the system to match another team. They're totally different systems. I will not disagree with anyone that our dmen are far too aggressive with Brodie being the worst for getting way out of position. However, I think Hamonic is also asked to be too aggressive and isn't playing the stay at home style we hoped he would. We had Russell and Engelland start joining the rush in Hartley's and Gully's systems. I blame the system for requesting the dmen to take way too much risk. IMO Gully needs to reign in the risk the dmen are taking.

Forwards - Passive
Dmen -High risk pinching
Goalie - Risky puck play

It's a double edged sword with that much damn risk in the system.

Year 1
- Gully 1.0 (Never fully deployed). A vastly different system than Hartley's system. While I'm unsure of his exact system, it seems like collapsing in front of the net and stretch pass was replaced by defensive zone perimeter play with little board battling and holding the blue line. I think Gully wanted the team to play a cycle game. PP and PK was abysmal as it relied on a weird cycle game that the team wasn't familiar with.

- Gully 2.0 (Gully/Hartley hybrid?). The sudden surge late in year 1. Seemed like a Dzone perimeter play/hold blue line + neutral zone rush. We seemed to have success with it.

Year 2
- Gully 3.0 (Smith mode). A completely different style that relied heavily upon using the goalie to play the puck. The season started off with the players completely confused at the positioning of this style and we'd see up to 3 players bunching together on occasion. Forwards weren't sure how far to go back, defenders weren't sure how far forward to go. Formation wise, with all forwards in the neutral zone and sometimes a dman often meant the players had no room to work with. We saw this where players could barely string together 3-5 foot passes. Gully also modified his perimeter play to reduce screened shots on net.

- Gully 1.5 (Lack mode). A similar system to Gully 1.0, whatever it was supposed to be, but with an extra player chasing guys in the board battles or something. Though there was significant talk about bringing back Eddie Lack of Vancouver era (because Carolina tried to modify his play style and failed), I felt like Lack was still asked to try and tweak his game so that the team could play closer to Gully 3.0. Horrific results really.


Dec 2 vs Edmonton should be an interesting case study in the third period alone for systems. It wasn't just a surge. It was IMO a completely different style. I don't know whether it was spurred on by Gully or the players tuning him out though.


All this... and yet...
- Gully's system broke the Honda Curse. Whatever it was, it was a distraction he successfully dismantled.
- Gully's system(s) brought the team to the playoffs last season (first year) and currently is over .500. He's not the next Eakins much to the chagrin to some of our fans who want him fired, but we worry about sustained mediocrity.
- More structure than Hartley, though IMO this is like Aesop's fable of the fox and the cat. Fox has a bag of tricks, cat has one. Fox dies because he cannot decide what trick to use to avoid the hunter.
- His system(s) are arguably not even properly deployed yet as mentioned in the the interviews and such.
- His system keeps our players ridiculously healthy. Other than Jagr and Versteeg, we haven't really had any injuries.
 

Paralyzer

Hyman >>> Matthews
Sep 29, 2006
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Somewhere Up North
What the hell are you talking about... or rather making up?

We've had both Brodie and Russell, they aren't even comparable players. Russell is better defensively than Brodie, but not by a significant margin, but playing the puck and offensively, Brodie is significantly better. That said, Russell is a warrior and a heart and soul guy, most of the mocking around him is for his own goal and for that contract. Giordano isn't actually slowing down. Not sure where you are getting this from. No one expected Hamilton to be anything other than what he is if they had seen him play. He's much like Bouwmeester, except not as good defensively and has a better shot/more active offensively. Hamonic has been hung out to dry by Brodie and is better than you give him credit for. Stone is just fine for what he is and what he is paid. Smith is the only reason we aren't in the cellar with the Oilers.

The only funny thing is that you **** all over the Flames when you have no clue at all. The Flames are very much under-performing, maybe the Oilers are too, but is one good season really evidence that they are under-performing? Or have they slipped back to where they w

They are comparable based on boneheaded moves...but keep throwing words into my mouth.
 

WetcoastOrca

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Jun 3, 2011
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Too many people judge a defense based on their offence and the points they produce.
This is a high level offensive group but in their own end they are well below average as a group.
 

topcheezy

Registered User
Sep 3, 2017
57
12
brodie is an elite d-man when he's on his game, but he just doesn't seem to have his heart in it these days. it doesn't help that gulutzan insists on playing him on the left side when he's always been an rd. hopefully a new coach can come along soon that will bring back the old brodie
 

CycloneSweep

Registered User
Sep 27, 2017
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Worry about your own defense before worrying about ours- it appears #1 Dmen Klefbom and Larsson are struggling mightily this year as well!
Klefbom has had a rough patch, Larsson is currently injured and Sekera has been injured all year. Our starter also hasn't been good.
All that said your team has allowed 4 less goals than ours. No one thought the Oilers had good defense. People were screaming that Calgary had like one of the best defenses in the league, just bad goaltending.
 
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24 others

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Jan 30, 2017
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To be fair, fans of other teams have flooded the trade boards with proposals for Hamilton and Hamonic, before they landed in CGY - pretty much everyone wanted one or the other on their team. So it's not about the flames fans (only) - the impression that two top line Ds are coming to join Giordano and Brodie was pretty much a product of the usual HF madness.
 

The Red Mile

Registered User
Dec 18, 2013
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Hardcore Flames fan here and I can say without a doubt that only Giordano has played up to his potential this year. The rest of our defence has been super bad keeping the puck out of our net. Was not super high on Hammer when we traded for him but he is what he is. I am getting tired of both Brodie and Hamilton having brain farts on the defensive side of the puck. IMO we need to move out either Brodie, or Hamilton for a more reliable, less flashy player who can keep the puck out of the net. ATM we have a defence that is no better then most of the leagues. Giordano is a rock though and the only one who continues to make smart, defensive plays.
 

flamesforcup

Registered User
Sep 5, 2017
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Klefbom has had a rough patch, Larsson is currently injured and Sekera has been injured all year. Our starter also hasn't been good.
All that said your team has allowed 4 less goals than ours. No one thought the Oilers had good defense. People were screaming that Calgary had like one of the best defenses in the league, just bad goaltending.
Flames were never hyped to be stanley cup favorites like the Oilers. Now look where the Oilers are. Thats 10x more embarressing than saying Flames have a top 3 dcore. And VainGretzky u seem to have a very irrational hate for the Flames lol.
As for the thread the defense has played trash but its still not even halfway i expect them to pick it up
 

CycloneSweep

Registered User
Sep 27, 2017
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Flames were never hyped to be stanley cup favorites like the Oilers. Now look where the Oilers are. Thats 10x more embarressing than saying Flames have a top 3 dcore. And VainGretzky u seem to have a very irrational hate for the Flames lol.
As for the thread the defense has played trash but its still not even halfway i expect them to pick it up
Oilers were hyped to be cup favorites due to the favorites and how week the west had been looking. Very few expected the Oilers to crash this far.

Calgarys defense was bad last year, blamed it on goaltending
Calgarys defense was bad the year before, blamed it on goaltending
Calgarys defense is bad this year and Smith is the only reason you guys have more wins than the Oilers.

Both are embarassing but Calgary has been making excuses for their defense for years.
 

flamesforcup

Registered User
Sep 5, 2017
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Oilers were hyped to be cup favorites due to the favorites and how week the west had been looking. Very few expected the Oilers to crash this far.

Calgarys defense was bad last year, blamed it on goaltending
Calgarys defense was bad the year before, blamed it on goaltending
Calgarys defense is bad this year and Smith is the only reason you guys have more wins than the Oilers.

Both are embarassing but Calgary has been making excuses for their defense for years.
Thing with Calgarys defense is at least they are good offensively. And most Flames fan admit they are below average defensively. Every Oilers fan in the offseason was pumping themselves up about how they are cup favorites and now they might not even make the playoffs.
Ill be the first to admit our defense is overrated. But comes no where close to how overrated the Oilers were before the season.
 

CycloneSweep

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Sep 27, 2017
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Thing with Calgarys defense is at least they are good offensively. And most Flames fan admit they are below average defensively. Every Oilers fan in the offseason was pumping themselves up about how they are cup favorites and now they might not even make the playoffs.
To be fair, both teams probably won't make it.
 

Advanced stats

Registered User
May 26, 2010
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Last night was just a gongshow. The bounces were unbelievable. A few goals were "he could have gotten that" but I wouldn't say they were bad.
18 goals against in his last 5 games is bad.
Smith has never been more than an average-below average goalie, so his numbers were going to take a hit at some point.
 

Snakepit

Registered User
Nov 19, 2013
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It's reminding me of the Brent Sutter years where they have a great group of players on D but a coach that has them playing against their strengths. Very frustrating to watch
 

Bjornar Moxnes

Stem Rødt og Felix Unger Sörum
Oct 16, 2016
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I actually completely agree with you for the most part. Gio was unquestionably an elite #1 dman for a stretch. The problem is, at his age, when he’s not playing at that level anymore, I’m not sure how much you can expect him to return to being that guy. It certainly could happen, but IMO, him and Hamilton are high end #2s.

The only guy I really disagree about is Brodie. He’s never impressed me nearly as much as Gio and Hamilton. He was very good when he was out there with an elite Gio, but that’s the case with a lot of guys. He reminds me a lot of Barrie in the sense that he’s got lots of offensive ability, but just can’t translate it into being a top dman. They can both play on the top pairing with a true #1, but as soon as the other guy can’t carry them, they look worse. Brodie IMO is, and has always been, more of a #3 dman.

Well I've actually watched Flames games more extensively from 2013-2014 to 2016-2017 then right now, and I'd have to say until 2016-2017, Brodie looked on par or more impressive than Giordano in most games they played together. Giordano's offense drops a ton without Brodie, and his defense suffers a bit as well. Brodie's defense improves beyond leaps and bounds with Giordano, that's why in 2015-2016 Brodie was legit better than Josi, Subban, etc. (Note only a big portion of that season for that season, so please no one come and attack me), and his offense improves as well. It seems that Giordano and Brodie rely on each other and them together is a legit fantastic first pairing. Problem in the past and even today is that firstly the Flames have the deepest RHD depth in the league, but their LHD depth isn't that strong. So if Giordano-Brodie becomes a pairing again, Kulak is our 2nd pairing LHD, and that's not a pretty sight. Hamilton is still great offensively on his own and is a good possession player, but his defense would be exposed without Giordano. I honestly don't think the Flames should have went for Hamonic. Should have tried to get a top 6 RHS winger, either a play making defensive RW, or a sniper LW for the PP (Although Flames actually nearly got Sharp and they targeted him, but eventually he went to CHI).

I honestly think Hamilton can bring back a solid #4LHD that can play with Hamonic well and a top 6 RHS winger, either playmaking defensive RW or sniper LW.
 

Measles

Registered User
Oct 30, 2015
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Calgary
Thing with Calgarys defense is at least they are good offensively. And most Flames fan admit they are below average defensively. Every Oilers fan in the offseason was pumping themselves up about how they are cup favorites and now they might not even make the playoffs.
Ill be the first to admit our defense is overrated. But comes no where close to how overrated the Oilers were before the season.
Not true. Most Oilers fans felt we would make the playoffs , but that we were not a true contender yet, nevermind a "cup favorite".
Thing with Calgarys defense is at least they are good offensively. And most Flames fan admit they are below average defensively. Every Oilers fan in the offseason was pumping themselves up about how they are cup favorites and now they might not even make the playoffs.
Ill be the first to admit our defense is overrated. But comes no where close to how overrated the Oilers were before the season.
Through 27 games: Cgy D = 47 pts, Edm D = 45 pts.
Maybe not but Flames were always regarded as a bubble team by most. Its very early in the season theres still a chance both can make it. Dont think seasons over yet
Not true. They were included by most people in those teams that would make the playoffs in the West.
 

Oilers Propagandist

Relax junior, it’s just a post.
Aug 27, 2016
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Edmonton, AB
All good. Defense is sucking this year we get it. As an Oilers fan you shouldn't talk as your team was Stanley Cup favorites with a top 10 goalie in the league.

Look in the GDTs and you will not find 1 person talking highly about the defense this year, aside from maybe Gio praise.
Oh yeah? Lmao
Brodie > Nurse this season seems like extremely high praise for the aforementioned Brodie.
"Battle" of Alberta: Flames vs Oilers - 8 PM MT
 

flamesforcup

Registered User
Sep 5, 2017
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You would think Oilers are some sort of contender with the way their fans are talking in this thread
 

flamesforcup

Registered User
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Not true. Most Oilers fans felt we would make the playoffs , but that we were not a true contender yet, nevermind a "cup favorite".

Through 27 games: Cgy D = 47 pts, Edm D = 45 pts.

Not true. They were included by most people in those teams that would make the playoffs in the West.
Well a mediocre team is usually a team that hovers around a playoff spot is it not? Maybe i should have used the term "bubble team" to be more accurate. And its only 27 games the years before Flames defense has blown the Oilers out of the water offensively
 

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