OT: Let's talk about movies and TV - Part XXIV

[Kimota]

Honestly I used to think that but like, does it really matter? Why be so defensive about these but not for other things? and i'm not calling you anything here i'm just saying you should take a step back and consider if "it really matters". One of the good examples was a lot of people complaining about the new MJ in spider-man not being a white redhead. But I don't see a lot of people complaining about Aunt May being young, or the lack of uncle Ben, or the fact that May knows he's Spider-man, or the fact that Ben died before he became Spider-man, where are the Osborne, why is Flash not a white jock, etc etc etc all things that are technically "in canon". It's because these things don't actually matter in context, it's a different take on a character and a franchise... Nick Fury was white, I don't see people complaining about him being black in the MCU, why not? Iron Man is bland and boring in the comics, why are people in love with RDJ? These are different takes on characters

I kinda disagree that 007 is about James Bond, he's been kind of a generic blanket character for a long time now that almost acts as a mcguffin for action and sex scenes, while physically they've had him young, older, blond, black hair, tall, short, blue eyed, brown eyed... There's really no *real* reason in my mind why a woman couldn't play that role any more than Daniel Craig shouldn't have because he has blue eyes and he's blond (which I know some people complained but it wasn't nearly as big a deal). Craig's era was a completely different than Brosnan's era was in terms of movie style AND character, so what's wrong with another completely different take?

And I understand the idea that you want more new roles, I agree I would kill for a brand new big action movie with a female lead, but new roles don't come with 50+ years of impact and baggage, this is a much bigger deal than creating a new franchise that might or might not work, it's a shortcut to get that political message (because yes it is definitely political) to more people faster, show them that they can achieve anything really because they're equals

Oh boy. So because you want a successful action heroine franchise, we have to go ahead and castrate ourselves and sacrifice the character that represent the most what is good about men. So you praise the fact that men will lose one of the heroes, one of their icons, THE icon. If there ever is a WWIII remind me that you won't be there to protect my back when the going gets tough.

Furthermore, I don't know if you looked around but the majority of TV shows and movies nowadays are lead by females. Especially the genre shows on TV. Everything that is greenlight now are projects with a female in the lead. So most of the projects in action genre, the female is the lead. If we look at the state of action movies, in truth pure action movies are not successful. Oh there are exceptions like the Furious franchise and super-hero movies. But when I talk about action flicks like Arnold and Sly used to do with one main lead and no super-humans, they bomb. Statham tries to do them, they don't work anymore(and I'm not talking with a giant shark either, look at his Mechanic 2). Same with Liam Neason. Bomb after bomb after bomb. So the only pure action flick that really makes money is James Bond. And so this whole thing about having a successful action flick "with women like men" really is just wrong. Cause there are no successful pure action movies with a man in the lead. Except Bond. So you want to take that away when it's the only thing that works.

But more so, this whole thing is misguided cause replacing a famous male character by a female cause "they don't have a chance to be on a successful franchise" is not equality to me. It's the opposite, it's a form of pandering babysitting going back to what I call the "princess generation". It's like seeing women as this poor little things that needs to be taken by the hands, instead of getting things by their own merits. There was a movie a few years ago with Angelina Jolie called "Salt". It was pretty good and it had her being some sort of super-agent. And it was pretty successful too. Here you had your female action role with Bond-like characteristics and Angelina did this on her own. Replacing a male character by a female of a successful franchise not only doesn't give the female "specie" the ability to shine on their own, also it is a disservice to the actress who will never match Bond but also creates strife and hate between the two genders instead of both sexes working together toward a same goal. (as really with all their flaws, the Marvel movies do this really well, male and female heroes working together). Speaking of which, there's a Black Widow movie coming. That's a project I can get behind.

 

[Runner77]

You mean Eric's Engels.

Yeah, that too.

There was another movie about Engels already, tho — The Big Shill.

 

[Tabarouette]

Oh boy. So because you want a successful action heroine franchise, we have to go ahead and castrate ourselves and sacrifice the character that represent the most what is good about men. So you praise the fact that men will lose one of the heroes, one of their icons, THE icon. If there ever is a WWIII remind me that you won't be there to protect my back when the going gets tough.

Furthermore, I don't know if you looked around but the majority of TV shows and movies nowadays are lead by females. Especially the genre shows on TV. Everything that is greenlight now are projects with a female in the lead. So most of the projects in action genre, the female is the lead. If we look at the state of action movies, in truth pure action movies are not successful. Oh there are exceptions like the Furious franchise and super-hero movies. But when I talk about action flicks like Arnold and Sly used to do with one main lead and no super-humans, they bomb. Statham tries to do them, they don't work anymore(and I'm not talking with a giant shark either, look at his Mechanic 2). Same with Liam Neason. Bomb after bomb after bomb. So the only pure action flick that really makes money is James Bond. And so this whole thing about having a successful action flick "with women like men" really is just wrong. Cause there are no successful pure action movies with a man in the lead. Except Bond. So you want to take that away when it's the only thing that works.

But more so, this whole thing is misguided cause replacing a famous male character by a female cause "they don't have a chance to be on a successful franchise" is not equality to me. It's the opposite, it's a form of pandering babysitting going back to what I call the "princess generation". It's like seeing women as this poor little things that needs to be taken by the hands, instead of getting things by their own merits. There was a movie a few years ago with Angelina Jolie called "Salt". It was pretty good and it had her being some sort of super-agent. And it was pretty successful too. Here you had your female action role with Bond-like characteristics and Angelina did this on her own. Replacing a male character by a female of a successful franchise not only doesn't give the female "specie" the ability to shine on their own, also it is a disservice to the actress who will never match Bond but also creates strife and hate between the two genders instead of both sexes working together toward a same goal. (as really with all their flaws, the Marvel movies do this really well, male and female heroes working together). Speaking of which, there's a Black Widow movie coming. That's a project I can get behind.

John Wick and Mission Impossible are like the 2 biggest "pure" action franchises out there right now, both led by men, following the trend of the past forever in movies (both great franchises (well except for MI2)). Forcing women into movies pushes normalization, normalization doesn't happen easily organically when an industry or a society is stuck in certain ways, sometimes it needs a little push. Without past normalization you most likely don't get black widow or salt, or you get it 40 years from now

We clearly disagree strongly on a political level if you believe the iconic macho James Bond is a character all men should aspire to, so I don't think we're gonna get much out of keeping a discussion alive tbh, nothing personal it just kinda is what it is... but also we're not really allowed to according to hf rules

 

[Kriss E]

Flying from Hong Kong to Newark and then Mtl...
15h45h of flying..Have Season 1 of Into the bandlands to binge watch...hope it's good!

 

[Runner77]

Flying from Hong Kong to Newark and then Mtl...
15h45h of flying..Have Season 1 of Into the bandlands to binge watch...hope it's good!

Have seen Season 1 of Badlands and you could do worse. It's going to be a good distraction. Groove had a positive review about it and would concur.

Safe travels.

 

[Kriss E]

Honestly I used to think that but like, does it really matter? Why be so defensive about these but not for other things? and i'm not calling you anything here i'm just saying you should take a step back and consider if "it really matters". One of the good examples was a lot of people complaining about the new MJ in spider-man not being a white redhead. But I don't see a lot of people complaining about Aunt May being young, or the lack of uncle Ben, or the fact that May knows he's Spider-man, or the fact that Ben died before he became Spider-man, where are the Osborne, why is Flash not a white jock, etc etc etc all things that are technically "in canon". It's because these things don't actually matter in context, it's a different take on a character and a franchise... Nick Fury was white, I don't see people complaining about him being black in the MCU, why not? Iron Man is bland and boring in the comics, why are people in love with RDJ? These are different takes on characters

I kinda disagree that 007 is about James Bond, he's been kind of a generic blanket character for a long time now that almost acts as a mcguffin for action and sex scenes, while physically they've had him young, older, blond, black hair, tall, short, blue eyed, brown eyed... There's really no *real* reason in my mind why a woman couldn't play that role any more than Daniel Craig shouldn't have because he has blue eyes and he's blond (which I know some people complained but it wasn't nearly as big a deal). Craig's era was a completely different than Brosnan's era was in terms of movie style AND character, so what's wrong with another completely different take?

And I understand the idea that you want more new roles, I agree I would kill for a brand new big action movie with a female lead, but new roles don't come with 50+ years of impact and baggage, this is a much bigger deal than creating a new franchise that might or might not work, it's a shortcut to get that political message (because yes it is definitely political) to more people faster, show them that they can achieve anything really because they're equals

Social not political, and precisely what pisses me off. They don't need to make everything about social justice movements.

I disagree with you about Bond. Changing his hair color doesn't mean anything.
James Bond is a middle aged man, charming, athletic/fit, handsome, macho but also carring, with a sex appeal that makes him irrisitible to many hot women. So maybe he's got blue eyes in one edition, dark ones in another...that's not a big deal as long as they respect the core values of the character.

If they made him into a fat sensitive idiot, people would have said ''wtf'' just as much.
I don't need to see every movie turned into a pro social movement.

For the record, I'm not even a big fan of Bond flicks...but I like when classics are respected.

 

[Tabarouette]

Social not political, and precisely what pisses me off. They don't need to make everything about social justice movements.

I disagree with you about Bond. Changing his hair color doesn't mean anything.
James Bond is a middle aged man, charming, athletic/fit, handsome, macho but also carring, with a sex appeal that makes him irrisitible to many hot women. So maybe he's got blue eyes in one edition, dark ones in another...that's not a big deal as long as they respect the core values of the character.

If they made him into a fat sensitive idiot, people would have said ''wtf'' just as much.
I don't need to see every movie turned into a pro social movement.

For the record, I'm not even a big fan of Bond flicks...but I like when classics are respected.

hey point taken you know, you don't have to agree and they don't have to change everything to please everyone, there's the truth somewhere in between

if anything i'm way more offended by those billion remakes of everything, in a sense for the same reasons... leave Lion King alone, remake bad movies and make them good and leave the good movies alone you damn hollywood hacks

 

[Kriss E]

hey point taken you know, you don't have to agree and they don't have to change everything to please everyone, there's the truth somewhere in between

if anything i'm way more offended by those billion remakes of everything, in a sense for the same reasons... leave Lion King alone, remake bad movies and make them good and leave the good movies alone you damn hollywood hacks

No argument there. The amount of remakes is pathetic.
Remakes and superhero flicks is all we get nowadays.

 

[sandviper]

Flying from Hong Kong to Newark and then Mtl...
15h45h of flying..Have Season 1 of Into the bandlands to binge watch...hope it's good!

Season one was good. Season two ended fairly well and should have ended the series there instead of dragging on to the slow death it ended up being.

 

[Runner77]

Season one was good. Season two ended fairly well and should have ended the series there instead of dragging on to the slow death it ended up being.

I liked Season 1 even if it wasn't the most original storyline.

However, I didn't go for Season 2. Man, now I don't know if I should, lol.

 

[Kimota]

John Wick and Mission Impossible are like the 2 biggest "pure" action franchises out there right now, both led by men, following the trend of the past forever in movies (both great franchises (well except for MI2)).

But again Mission Impossible is a big franchise lead by one of the biggest stars Tom Cruise. Because he is Tom Cruise, you cannot pick whatever actor off the street and make that successful. You cannot even have say a good actor like Aaron Eckhart and have him do something like that. So even most MEN don't have that luxury. And John Wick is really an anomaly. It is actually comforting to finally see a straight, simple, action picture like this being successful.

Forcing women into movies pushes normalization, normalization doesn't happen easily organically when an industry or a society is stuck in certain ways, sometimes it needs a little push. Without past normalization you most likely don't get black widow or salt, or you get it 40 years from now

That's something I'm not a fan of, "pushing" for things. I prefer somebody that has a great story to tell and he/she tells it. And if people want to do that story or movie whether it's about a man or woman, then so be it. I see art as something too pure for corporate social agendas. I don't get people that are obsessed with pushing for things, maybe it makes them feel better in their little hearts, who knows. But as a fan, I just want to be entertaining and for people to make me go to imaginative places, new Worlds, etc...

We clearly disagree strongly on a political level if you believe the iconic macho James Bond is a character all men should aspire to, so I don't think we're gonna get much out of keeping a discussion alive tbh, nothing personal it just kinda is what it is... but also we're not really allowed to according to hf rules

I'm not saying Bond is pure, he is clearly not a saint. Not saying he is a model for our day to day real lives where he have our simple lives with families, kids, mortage, etc.... But he is the Ultimate escapism fantasy character for men/boys. We look at him and we smile, we want to be this courageous and badass and charming and having all these gadgets, having to go everywhere and having all these gorgeous girls. Is it Evil to like Bond and wanting for him to still exist. What kind of a World we live in where we cannot have escapism?

 

[sandviper]

I liked Season 1 even if it wasn't the most original storyline.

However, I didn't go for Season 2. Man, now I don't know if I should, lol.

To be frank, I don’t recall much of season two but the storyline between Sunny and Quinn ends very decisively.

 

[Tabarouette]

But again Mission Impossible is a big franchise lead by one of the biggest stars Tom Cruise. Because he is Tom Cruise, you cannot pick whatever actor off the street and make that successful. You cannot even have say a good actor like Aaron Eckhart and have him do something like that. So even most MEN don't have that luxury. And John Wick is really an anomaly. It is actually comforting to finally see a straight, simple, action picture like this being successful.



That's something I'm not a fan of, "pushing" for things. I prefer somebody that has a great story to tell and he/she tells it. And if people want to do that story or movie whether it's about a man or woman, then so be it. I see art as something too pure for corporate social agendas. I don't get people that are obsessed with pushing for things, maybe it makes them feel better in their little hearts, who knows. But as a fan, I just want to be entertaining and for people to make me go to imaginative places, new Worlds, etc...




I'm not saying Bond is pure, he is clearly not a saint. Not saying he is a model for our day to day real lives where he have our simple lives with families, kids, mortage, etc.... But he is the Ultimate escapism fantasy character for men/boys. We look at him and we smile, we want to be this courageous and badass and charming and having all these gadgets, having to go everywhere and having all these gorgeous girls. Is it Evil to like Bond and wanting for him to still exist. What kind of a World we live in where we cannot have escapism?

I understand, and like nah you can totally enjoy Bond and dream of it, the way I see it is if I want to feel like that I still have a century of men dominated media to look up too so taking Bond away for a movie really shouldn't mean much to me, and makes a lot of other people people (in this case women and or black people) happy, I can take that L

it's like tanking in hockey

(this is the worst comparison)

 

[angusyoung]

I understand, and like nah you can totally enjoy Bond and dream of it, the way I see it is if I want to feel like that I still have a century of men dominated media to look up too so taking Bond away for a movie really shouldn't mean much to me, and makes a lot of other people people (in this case women and or black people) happy, I can take that L

it's like tanking in hockey

(this is the worst comparison)

So you're fine when Jackie Chan takes over wonder women role and prances around like that?

Some things are fine the way they are,leave well enough alone.

No more originality to create new roles etc? Re-booting everything for petes sake.

 

[Tabarouette]

So you're fine when Jackie Chan takes over wonder women role and prances around like that?

Some things are fine the way they are,leave well enough alone.

No more originality to create new roles etc? Re-booting everything for petes sake.

Jackie Chan becoming wonder woman would just reinforce the current state of things, the power dynamic historically goes one way, men don't need any push for acceptance while black people and women do as racism and sexism is still very strong in the biggest movie markets.

and I don't think you've read the discussion nobody is saying don't create new roles for them

 

[angusyoung]

Jackie Chan becoming wonder woman would just reinforce the current state of things, the power dynamic historically goes one way, men don't need any push for acceptance while black people and women do as racism and sexism is still very strong in the biggest movie markets.

and I don't think you've read the discussion nobody is saying don't create new roles for them

If you say so,I just see films or tv shows for entertainment and could care less what race or gender is on the screen.

 

[Tabarouette]

If you say so,I just see films or tv shows for entertainment and could care less what race or gender is on the screen.

which to me says you get it but the thing is not everyone does, and apparently that's almost the majority of people

 

[angusyoung]

which to me says you get it but the thing is not everyone does, and apparently that's almost the majority of people

That pretty much sums up the pitfalls of humanity doesn't it,deplorable actions all over the world.

 

[peate]

The scum on the surface prevents us from seeing the riches below.

 

[angusyoung]

The scum on the surface prevents us from seeing the riches below.

Prevalent here as well.

 

[LaP]

Prevalent here as well.

Cry me a river. BTW this is not the place.

 

[angusyoung]

Cry me a river. BTW this is not the place.

Can't argue with that. Someone should open a thread for grievances.

 

[peate]

Can't argue with that. Someone should open a thread for grievances.

But...we already have Bergevin threads.

 

[angusyoung]

But...we already have Bergevin threads.

Need more venting! more targets!. lol.

 

[Kimota]

I understand, and like nah you can totally enjoy Bond and dream of it, the way I see it is if I want to feel like that I still have a century of men dominated media to look up too so taking Bond away for a movie really shouldn't mean much to me, and makes a lot of other people people (in this case women and or black people) happy, I can take that L

it's like tanking in hockey

(this is the worst comparison)

But me personally I'm saying Bond is important to me. so you are willing to make a segment of the population unhappy, throw us under the bus to make another segment happy? All it does is create strife and hate under the gise of progression because you want to change what you perceive is an unfair situation.

When the solution is right there: create new diverse characters to make everybody happy.

This is not the 1950s, look around all the Tv shows and movies.