Value of: Leon Draisaitl

[Starat327]

Well once again that was his second season, and that's not really at all a conclusion that can be drawn from my post. Again with the leaps in logic. If you really think Draisaitl and Backstrom are at all comparable in what they've proven playing the center position then you may be beyond my help.



Never said it was not OK to be good at 2 positions or that it's bad to have flexibility. Don't know where you've inferred that from. Again my point is it's not all that common to have two high drafted centers playing on the same line. Especially when they combine at a 21 million dollar cap hit a year. Surely you can recognize the inherent risks of relying on one line in a hard capped league. They can only be on the ice so much.


Man do some fans ever get their panties twisted up when you suggest Draisaitl has more to prove . Wonder where that sensitivity comes from and why it strikes such a nerve? Is he capable of carrying his own line and driving the offence and dominating in both ends of the rink? Sure why not, he's done it on occasion. Has he proven he can do it on a consistent basis over the course of a season? Well take it with a grain of salt but in my opinion no he hasn't, and furthermore for what he's already getting paid that should not only be the aspiration, but the expectation.

He wasn't a rookie as he had lost his Calder eligibility playing in 37 games the season before. At no point have I attacked Drai or said he wasn't a good player, you're putting words in my mouth. In fact I've been fairly complimentary of him throughout his short career, he's got some fantastic talent for a big man. It's just my position that you can't claim him to be some elite 2 way centerman in the mold of Malkin or Kopitar if he hasn't done it without a 1st overall pick on his line for an extended period of time. If you disagree with that then fine, you're well within your rights to do so, I just don't see how it's a ludicrous position to take.



Well considering how often it gets brought up, on the radio shows, Oiler blogs, the forums here, etc etc I would disagree with this particular assertion. Maybe he can elevate Rieder and whoever else he plays with to being good top 6 options, I wouldn't exactly bet against it. My point was he just hasn't done it yet.

I'm sorry. What conclusion am I drawing? Because you pretty clearly state that you cant claim someone to be an elite center and if they havent done it without a #1 overall in their wing. Backstrom hasnt played much away from Ovechkin, so I'm wondering how he doesnr dir this criteria that you yourself are making up, that's all.

No one's panties ate in a bunch. I honestly sont care what anyone calls Drai as I'm not an Oilers fan. I just love the hypocrisy of not being able to see things clearly. You've set some criteria, then when given examples, add on to or modify the criteria for being a #1. You refuse to acknowledge that there are other "#1c" in this league that are in the same circumstance as Drai, (playing with other great players, who knows who is driving who) that fit your criteria of not being a 1C. But for some reason it's just Draisatl that has something to prove. Youre welcome to your opinion, and I'm not trying to change your mind. The mental gymnastics to disprove a player worth of his paycheck and status you're going through is funny to me, that's all.

 

[crosby87]

LD is pretty damn good but didn't McDavid carry last year with something insane like assisting or scoring on 48 points of his points?

He's a very good #2C, not ready to call him a #1C until he stops riding McDavid coattails.

His value is probably a #2D right now, Trouba maybe.

LD carried mcdavid with something insane like assisting or scoring on 48 points of his points

 

[Bounces R Way]

I'm sorry. What conclusion am I drawing? Because you pretty clearly state that you cant claim someone to be an elite center and if they havent done it without a #1 overall in their wing. Backstrom hasnt played much away from Ovechkin, so I'm wondering how he doesnr dir this criteria that you yourself are making up, that's all.

No one's panties ate in a bunch. I honestly sont care what anyone calls Drai as I'm not an Oilers fan. I just love the hypocrisy of not being able to see things clearly. You've set some criteria, then when given examples, add on to or modify the criteria for being a #1. You refuse to acknowledge that there are other "#1c" in this league that are in the same circumstance as Drai, (playing with other great players, who knows who is driving who) that fit your criteria of not being a 1C. But for some reason it's just Draisatl that has something to prove. Youre welcome to your opinion, and I'm not trying to change your mind. The mental gymnastics to disprove a player worth of his paycheck and status you're going through is funny to me, that's all.

This is honestly grade school playground reasoning. In the same vein as such classics as "Stop hitting yourself" or "I know you are but what am I?" I've said one thing about one player so now I must think it applies to every other player in the league. What you've quoted here is not setting a criteria to live and die by. The world does not exist in such black and white terms. This is commenting on what a player has proven and what they haven't proven. That's going to change when examining each of these player's body of work. I don't see any possible way it couldn't.

Backstrom for instance has proven he's a 1st line center caliber player by actually doing it for 10 seasons now. If he was 21 and had only one season of decent production playing the center position with Ovechkin on his wing, then my opinion of him would be that I need to see more and he might actually make some sense to use in a comparison for your imagined criteria. He's not so it doesn't.

 

[ottawa]

LD carried mcdavid with something insane like assisting or scoring on 48 points of his points

McDavid is turning into one of the most underrated players in the league

 

[Starat327]

This is honestly grade school playground reasoning. In the same vein as such classics as "Stop hitting yourself" or "I know you are but what am I?" I've said one thing about one player so now I must think it applies to every other player in the league. What you've quoted here is not setting a criteria to live and die by. The world does not exist in such black and white terms. This is commenting on what a player has proven and what they haven't proven. That's going to change when examining each of these player's body of work. I don't see any possible way it couldn't.

Backstrom for instance has proven he's a 1st line center caliber player by actually doing it for 10 seasons now. If he was 21 and had only one season of decent production playing the center position with Ovechkin on his wing, then my opinion of him would be that I need to see more and he might actually make some sense to use in a comparison for your imagined criteria. He's not so it doesn't.

It really isn't, but i can see why you're doing everything you can to make it look like you havent set this list of criteria that you seem comfortable applying to one player and not others. How about Matthews, then, if we're going to now add in consistent production to the list? Is he e a 1C after playing with top players to support him, and probably (im estimating here, because i dont have Oilers game logs at my disposal) the same amount of games at center over his carrer as Drai? Admittedly his production is a little higher, but hes also consistently playing with better linemates when he plays center as opposed to Lucic, and whoever else Drai is sent out with when he plays center. I dont have the time to check the stats, but it seems Oilers fans are using their stats to estimate a 66 point season estimate away from McDavid, at even strength, i believe.

If youre comfortable saying you dont think Matthews, or Monahan are 1C's, then we're all good. I just would really like to understand your barometer. Because it seems like it's tilted in such a way that is taking this notion of "he plays with McDavid alot, so he must not be that great by himself" but ignoring the statistics that are being provided that speak to the contrary.

 

[TheDoldrums]

It really isn't, but i can see why you're doing everything you can to make it look like you havent set this list of criteria that you seem comfortable applying to one player and not others. How about Matthews, then, if we're going to now add in consistent production to the list? Is he e a 1C after playing with top players to support him, and probably (im estimating here, because i dont have Oilers game logs at my disposal) the same amount of games at center over his carrer as Drai? Admittedly his production is a little higher, but hes also consistently playing with better linemates when he plays center as opposed to Lucic, and whoever else Drai is sent out with when he plays center. I dont have the time to check the stats, but it seems Oilers fans are using their stats to estimate a 66 point season estimate away from McDavid, at even strength, i believe.

If youre comfortable saying you dont think Matthews, or Monahan are 1C's, then we're all good. I just would really like to understand your barometer. Because it seems like it's tilted in such a way that is taking this notion of "he plays with McDavid alot, so he must not be that great by himself" but ignoring the statistics that are being provided that speak to the contrary.

Matthews played with Hyman and Connor Brown for ~40% of his rookie year and actually scored more than he did with Nylander. He's already gone over PPG in his D+2 and is one of the best goal scorers in the world. Stop comparing him to Draisatl, it's not fair to the German.

 

[Starat327]

Matthews played with Hyman and Connor Brown for ~40% of his rookie year and actually scored more than he did with Nylander. He's already gone over PPG in his D+2 and is one of the best goal scorers in the world. Stop comparing him to Draisatl, it's not fair to the German.

Never did i say Drai was a comparable player to Matthews.

But since you felt so inclined - dobberhockey lists Auston playing 42.99% of his time in 16-17 with Hyman and Nylander, not Brown.

Edit: the % is at Even strength only. PP linemates are inconsequential.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Never did i say Drai was a comparable player to Matthews.

But since you felt so inclined - dobberhockey lists Auston playing 42.99% of his time in 16-17 with Hyman and Nylander, not Brown.

Edit: the % is at Even strength only. PP linemates are inconsequential.

What the hell is Dobberhockey lol

He played ~60% of the season with Nylander and ~40% of the season with Brown. Both with Hyman.

5v5 minutes with Matthews in 2016-2017

Hyman - 975
Nylander - 624
Brown - 411

He had 19 5v5 points with Nylander in 624 minutes.

He had 21 5v5 points with Brown in 411 minutes.

So yeah, he can produce fine without top players to support him.

 

[Starat327]

What the hell is Dobberhockey lol

He played ~60% of the season with Nylander and ~40% of the season with Brown. Both with Hyman.

Minutes with Matthews in 2016-2017

Hyman - 975
Nylander - 624
Brown - 411

He had 19 5v5 points with Nylander in 624 minutes.

He had 21 5v5 points with Brown in 411 minutes.

So yeah, he can produce fine without top players to support him.

Ok so if we assume he plays 18 mins a night, thats what? 23 games. Extrapolate those 21 points in 23 games(ish) to an 82 game season he has 75 points. Definitely a good production pace and worth of a 1C imo. But, Not too far off of the stats that Edmonton fans have presented of Drai's 66 point pace, which would, i would think, make the claim of Drai being a 1C not too far off base.

Youre also seemingly getting a little upset about the comparison - i suggest you take a step back and look at the conversation. Its not an attack on Matthews, or an attempt to degrade him, or even say Drai is as good as him. But you did an excellent job of helping to prove my original point (assuming oilers fans math checks out), so i thank you for that.

 

[Bounces R Way]

It really isn't, but i can see why you're doing everything you can to make it look like you havent set this list of criteria that you seem comfortable applying to one player and not others. How about Matthews, then, if we're going to now add in consistent production to the list? Is he e a 1C after playing with top players to support him, and probably (im estimating here, because i dont have Oilers game logs at my disposal) the same amount of games at center over his carrer as Drai? Admittedly his production is a little higher, but hes also consistently playing with better linemates when he plays center as opposed to Lucic, and whoever else Drai is sent out with when he plays center. I dont have the time to check the stats, but it seems Oilers fans are using their stats to estimate a 66 point season estimate away from McDavid, at even strength, i believe.

If youre comfortable saying you dont think Matthews, or Monahan are 1C's, then we're all good. I just would really like to understand your barometer.

I'm seriously running out of ways to say this but what you think is me setting a criteria, isn't a criteria. Doesn't even meet the criteria to be a criteria(heh).

Matthews has two seasons of solid solid production being the best player on his line and his entire team. His team has made the playoffs two years in a row with him being the best center on it. He has proven himself capable of carrying his line and elevating his linemates in this short time. Does he have more to prove as well? Absolutely. But I would say what he's accomplished playing the center position in the NHL is more than what Drai has. Monahan? Little more lukewarm maybe he is maybe he isn't for me, which I've said many many times. If he has a 70pt season and improves his defensive game I'll call him a 1C. Until then I won't.

Because it seems like it's tilted in such a way that is taking this notion of "he plays with McDavid alot, so he must not be that great by himself" but ignoring the statistics that are being provided that speak to the contrary.

That would again be inferring the wrong thing and putting words in my mouth. At no point have I stated "Draisaitl is a product of McDavid" like others have in this thread. Merely pointing out the fact that you cannot discount the boost that comes with playing with the Art Ross winner. Last year was the 3rd time in 13 years the leading point producer in the NHL hasn't had a teammate in the top 10 for scoring. For reference in the last two years Draisaitl has 45 points when McDavid is not on the ice with him. He has 102 when he is.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Ok so if we assume he plays 18 mins a night, thats what? 23 games. Extrapolate those 21 points in 23 games(ish) to an 82 game season he has 75 points. Definitely a good production pace and worth of a 1C imo. But, Not too far off of the stats that Edmonton fans have presented of Drai's 66 point pace, which would, i would think, make the claim of Drai being a 1C not too far off base.

Youre also seemingly getting a little upset about the comparison - i suggest you take a step back and look at the conversation. Its not an attack on Matthews, or an attempt to degrade him, or even say Drai is as good as him. But you did an excellent job of helping to prove my original point (assuming oilers fans math checks out), so i thank you for that.

Those points are purely 5v5 and while Matthews isn't a PP phenom by any means, he still produces at a better rate there than Drai. This is also Matthews rookie season being compared to Drai's 4th season. And still he's more productive.

It just doesn't make sense to bring up Matthews. Whatever point you're struggling to make would be better served with players that are actually comparable. There are a lot of centres out there.

 

[ohheyhemsky]

He scored at a rate of 2.01 points per 60 minutes when not playing with McDavid last season (56% of the time). If he didn't play a second of 5-on-5 hockey with McDavid in 2017-18, he still would have finished with 64 points in 78 games based on his pace, on a team that had a horrible year and bad wingers.

Some of you should take a look at Draisaitl's stats - and who his numbers are comparable to - before posting. He's not a 50-55 point player away from McDavid.

Why be educated and upset, when you can be stupid and uninformed but happy?

That's why you're going to see in this thread.

 

[yababy]

If you really think Draisaitl and Backstrom are at all comparable in what they've proven playing the center position then you may be beyond my help.

Not sure how far apart these players are in current value, but given the age difference there's no way I trade Draisaitl for Backstrom, Seguin or anyone else drafted before 2010

 

[Tobias Kahun]

I'm seriously running out of ways to say this but what you think is me setting a criteria, isn't a criteria. Doesn't even meet the criteria to be a criteria(heh).

Matthews has two seasons of solid solid production being the best player on his line and his entire team. His team has made the playoffs two years in a row with him being the best center on it. He has proven himself capable of carrying his line and elevating his linemates in this short time. Does he have more to prove as well? Absolutely. But I would say what he's accomplished playing the center position in the NHL is more than what Drai has. Monahan? Little more lukewarm maybe he is maybe he isn't for me, which I've said many many times. If he has a 70pt season and improves his defensive game I'll call him a 1C. Until then I won't.



That would again be inferring the wrong thing and putting words in my mouth. At no point have I stated "Draisaitl is a product of McDavid" like others have in this thread. Merely pointing out the fact that you cannot discount the boost that comes with playing with the Art Ross winner. Last year was the 3rd time in 13 years the leading point producer in the NHL hasn't had a teammate in the top 10 for scoring. For reference in the last two years Draisaitl has 45 points when McDavid is not on the ice with him. He has 102 when he is.

Monahan isn’t a 1C until he can prove it without gaudreau on his line

 

[Three On Zero]

I’m honestly not sure that’s the case. He’s 22, very productive, great at evens, strong two way and faceoffs, and #1 centres are really hard to find in this league. I don’t doubt that there are teams that would back up the truck if there were ever a whisper that he were available.

Those teams that don’t need a 1C or don’t think he would be simply wouldn’t offer.

He's not a #1C and that's the point, on a few teams sure just due to talent. But he hasn't done enough to be sold as a #1

 

[ChaoticOrange]

He's not a #1C and that's the point, on a few teams sure just due to talent. But he hasn't done enough to be sold as a #1

60+ point pace with terrible linemates. He’s worth more - and proven more - than Bo Horvat, who you guys are pretty quick to assign 1C status.

If a team is trading for him it’s because they think he’s a 1C and will pay accordingly. The point’s moot though as he’s beyond unavailable.

 

[Snowman]

60+ point pace with terrible linemates. He’s worth more - and proven more - than Bo Horvat, who you guys are pretty quick to assign 1C status.

If a team is trading for him it’s because they think he’s a 1C and will pay accordingly. The point’s moot though as he’s beyond unavailable.

I agree with you there. Bo Horvat is a 2C at best.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I agree with you there. Bo Horvat is a 2C at best.

He is. The difference between Drai and Horvat is significant. And if Horvat is a good 2C with potential to be a 1C - and I think he is - then why assign absurd valuations like ‘2C maybe even a 3C’ to a guy with 2 70+ point seasons?

 

[McVespa99]

Matthews played with Hyman and Connor Brown for ~40% of his rookie year and actually scored more than he did with Nylander. He's already gone over PPG in his D+2 and is one of the best goal scorers in the world. Stop comparing him to Draisatl, it's not fair to the German.

So your saying Nylander is no good? Is that correct?

 

[McVespa99]

I'm seriously running out of ways to say this but what you think is me setting a criteria, isn't a criteria. Doesn't even meet the criteria to be a criteria(heh).

Matthews has two seasons of solid solid production being the best player on his line and his entire team. His team has made the playoffs two years in a row with him being the best center on it. He has proven himself capable of carrying his line and elevating his linemates in this short time. Does he have more to prove as well? Absolutely. But I would say what he's accomplished playing the center position in the NHL is more than what Drai has. Monahan? Little more lukewarm maybe he is maybe he isn't for me, which I've said many many times. If he has a 70pt season and improves his defensive game I'll call him a 1C. Until then I won't.



That would again be inferring the wrong thing and putting words in my mouth. At no point have I stated "Draisaitl is a product of McDavid" like others have in this thread. Merely pointing out the fact that you cannot discount the boost that comes with playing with the Art Ross winner. Last year was the 3rd time in 13 years the leading point producer in the NHL hasn't had a teammate in the top 10 for scoring. For reference in the last two years Draisaitl has 45 points when McDavid is not on the ice with him. He has 102 when he is.

So basically your saying exactly what you are arguing that your not saying. Got it.

 

[Bounces R Way]

So basically your saying exactly what you are arguing that your not saying. Got it.

So basically you're having trouble with your rudimentary reasoning and comprehension. Got it. If you can't distinguish between asserting that Draisaitl is only a good player because he plays with McDavid and asserting that Draisaitl's production benefits from playing with an Art Ross winner then I suggest you work on your comparing and contrasting skills.

You know how a Ford and a Dodge truck share a lot of similar characteristics but are inherently different? Same concept.

 

[TheDoldrums]

So your saying Nylander is no good? Is that correct?

That's not at all what I was saying.

 

[Captain Controversy]

Draisaitl is compared to Kopitar for a reason folks. Wait a couple years and see why.
He is the real deal.

 

[Three On Zero]

He is. The difference between Drai and Horvat is significant. And if Horvat is a good 2C with potential to be a 1C - and I think he is - then why assign absurd valuations like ‘2C maybe even a 3C’ to a guy with 2 70+ point seasons?

Bo is more of a mid to high #3/#2

Drai is a high #2 but not a #1

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

McDavid is turning into one of the most underrated players in the league

He probably is the most underrated player in the NHL right now honestly. He is notably superior to all of his peers and people act like he is comparable to Crosby, MacKinnon, Malkin, etc. He’s not.