Lemieux's 92-93 season - GOAT season by any player

[Dennis Bonvie]

The fact that Mario was a +55 in 60 games seems to indicate that he was putting in the best effort of his career.

 

[The Panther]

?

1988-89

Pittsburgh Penguins

NHL

76

85

114

199

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

=214.7 point pace for the season.

Nice try though.

He was on a 209-point pace. (Though that's being optimistic, as his pace slowed down noticeably in the second half.)

 

[The Panther]

The fact that Mario was a +55 in 60 games seems to indicate that he was putting in the best effort of his career.

Or that he was playing for League-dominant team for the only time in his career.

 

[Samsquanch]

He was on a 209-point pace. (Though that's being optimistic, as his pace slowed down noticeably in the second half.)

199pts ÷ 76gp = 2.618 pts/gp

2.618pts/gp x 82 games = 214.71pts.

We will call it 214. Either way math is a cool thing because you cant dispute it, because its math. And your wrong in this case.

Edit: and is this not trivial as f***?

 

[MadLuke]

2.618pts/gp x 82 games = 214.71pts.

Team were playing 80 games in 88-89.

 

[Samsquanch]

Team were playing 80 games in 88-89.

Haha f***, did not realize. It was before expansion. D'oh.

Point stands, it's fairly trivial. And not the point at all.

 

[The Panther]

Because he was a friggin teenager dude, on a terrible team.... thats why.

Here are his next closest teammates (he was alone on an island).

87-88

Mario Lemieux

F

77

70

98

168

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Dan Quinn

C

70

40

39

79

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Randy Cunneyworth

L

71

35

39

74

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

86-87

Mario Lemieux

F

63

54

53

107

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Dan Quinn 1

C

64

28

43

71

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Randy Cunneyworth

L

79

26

27

53

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

85-86

Mario Lemieux

F

79

48

93

141

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Mike Bullard

F

77

41

42

83

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Moe Mantha

D

78

15

52

67

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

This argument holds no water. Lemieux's team was "terrible" for one season only (1984-85), and then was competitive, though not great, thereafter. Wayne Gretzky's team was also friggin' terrible in 1979-80 and pretty poor in 1980-81. Why don't Lemieux's totals his first two season come anywhere near Gretzky's? According to you, the League was easier in the mid-80s. (And it was higher-scoring in Lemieux's first two seasons than in Gretzky's first two.)

Here's Gretzky's teams's leading scorers his first three seasons:

1	Wayne Gretzky*	19	C	79	51	86	137
2	Blair MacDonald	26	RW	80	46	48	94
3	Stan Weir	27	C	79	33	33	66
4	Brett Callighen	26	LW	59	23	35	58

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1	Wayne Gretzky*	20	C	80	55	109	164
2	Jari Kurri*	20	LW	75	32	43	75
3	Mark Messier*	20	LW	72	23	40	63
4	Brett Callighen	27	C	55	25	35	60	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1	Wayne Gretzky*	21	C	80	92	120	212
2	Glenn Anderson*	21	RW	80	38	67	105
3	Paul Coffey*	20	D	80	29	60	89	3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So, in Mario's first three seasons (in the "easier" NHL), he finished 121 points ahead of his teammates, while Gretzky finished 239 points ahead of his. Mario, by the way, was also -29 and Gretzky +135.

Next, if Lemieux was doing better against better competition, how do you explain the fact that Gretzky wiped the floor with Lemieux -- throughout their careers, including when Wayne was past his prime and on bad teams -- when they played head-to-head? It's not even close.

In conclusion, there is, as usual, zero evidence and only speculation that a prime-Gretzky wouldn't have put up the same numbers in the nineties (and 2000-01) that Lemieux did.

 

[The Panther]

As someone who has had several "lumps on his neck", your statement is really insulting. Hopefully you will never go through that. I had 6 1/2 months on Chemo every other week for 2 1/2 a session. Chemo is A LOT worse then Radiation, but it's still draining energy-wise. My energy level at best, is 20% of what it use to be on a good day.

I'm sorry you feel insulted.

Mario, however, did not have several lumps on his neck or 6-and-a-half months of chemo.

I wrote, in my post, about the likelihood of Mario's lacking energy just down the road from his return to NHL action. I am not clear why you feel insulted, but I'm sorry if you do.

 

[Samsquanch]

This argument holds no water. Lemieux's team was "terrible" for one season only (1984-85), and then was competitive, though not great, thereafter. Wayne Gretzky's team was also friggin' terrible in 1979-80 and pretty poor in 1980-81. Why don't Lemieux's totals his first two season come anywhere near Gretzky's? According to you, the League was easier in the mid-80s. (And it was higher-scoring in Lemieux's first two seasons than in Gretzky's first two.)

Here's Gretzky's teams's leading scorers his first three seasons:

1	Wayne Gretzky*	19	C	79	51	86	137
2	Blair MacDonald	26	RW	80	46	48	94
3	Stan Weir	27	C	79	33	33	66
4	Brett Callighen	26	LW	59	23	35	58

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1	Wayne Gretzky*	20	C	80	55	109	164
2	Jari Kurri*	20	LW	75	32	43	75
3	Mark Messier*	20	LW	72	23	40	63
4	Brett Callighen	27	C	55	25	35	60	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1	Wayne Gretzky*	21	C	80	92	120	212
2	Glenn Anderson*	21	RW	80	38	67	105
3	Paul Coffey*	20	D	80	29	60	89	3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So, in Mario's first three seasons (in the "easier" NHL), he finished 121 points ahead of his teammates, while Gretzky finished 239 points ahead of his. Mario, by the way, was also -29 and Gretzky +135.

Next, if Lemieux was doing better against better competition, how do you explain the fact that Gretzky wiped the floor with Lemieux -- throughout their careers, including when Wayne was past his prime and on bad teams -- when they played head-to-head. It's not even close.

In conclusion, there is, as usual, zero evidence and only speculation that a prime-Gretzky wouldn't have put up the same numbers in the nineties (and 2000-01) that Lemieux did.

Dude this isn't about Gretzky and his body of work. I don't care to argue against him, hes the GOAT. I'm a fan too.

But I'm more impressed with Mario's peak, and the point of the thread is about his miracle season in 92-93.

Their hockey minds were very much on par, but they had very different bodies and tools, and very different luck with health.

 

[streitz]

Pens played those three teams 8 times, averaging 5.5 goals in each. Dilution, sir, with 44 goals worth of stat-padding

I guess everyone else was terrible at padding their stats that year then considering Lemieux was the only player to average more then 2 points a game in a 'stat padding year' with 3 expansion teams.



It's not as if Gretzky or to use a more favorable (to me) and less prolific example, Hawerchuk got to torch the 80's leafs 3 times a year (Hawerchuk and Gretzky always lit it up against the leafs). There was always fodder teams in the 70's and 80's for the superstars to rack up points against, if anything 92-93 is just a throwback because for a period during the late 80's up until the 90's expansion for a few years the league was becoming slightly more balanced with the exception of the Nordiques.

 

[streitz]

So why didn't Mario chew up the significantly inferior mid-80s? This doesn't pass the eye test at all.

I don't know maybe you could take a good guess for the rest of us?

 

[ted2019]

I'm sorry you feel insulted.

Mario, however, did not have several lumps on his neck or 6-and-a-half months of chemo.

I wrote, in my post, about the likelihood of Mario's lacking energy just down the road from his return to NHL action. I am not clear why you feel insulted, but I'm sorry if you do.

I feel insulted to the fact that you think having Hodgkin's or non- Hodgkin's Lymphoma is basically a spider or mosquito bite, it's not. I'm not a huge fan of Mario, but I give him all the credit in the world for beating Lymphoma and coming back to play like he did, no matter what stage it was.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Everyone in that top 20 except for Lemieux (still is best ppg I think), Yzerman, Sakic, Hull, Fleury, Francis, Kevin Stevens (because he played only 72 games), Bure, Roenick, had their best offensive season, many by a large amount.

numerically, bure and roenick and their best offensive seasons too.

I agree with your entire post for the most part. Especially the angle with the expansion teams (my own Sens had a historically bad season).

But Gretzky of all people should have had an advantage that year too (won the art ross the following year), and while he only played 45 games (15 less than mario), his PPG was below his standards.

So if Gretzky and the 9 guys above (most are HHOF caliber - and better players than the guys having career years) couldnt post career seasons/PPG totals with this supposed advantage, Im just not ready to call that year a huge anomaly and change my stance on Mario. We see plenty of 100+ point players before and after that season.

consider that gretzky was coming off a career-altering injury. in those great playoffs, he scored 40 points in 24 games. in the last 24 games of the regular season, he scored... 40 points. but in the first 21 games he played after coming back from the injury, he only scored 25 points (and only three goals). he started off slow coming off a herniated disc at age 32, coming off 999 regular season games, more than 150 playoff games, then he scored at a 140 point pace the rest of the way. that 1.66666 points/game pace, which he replicated exactly in the playoffs, was his highest since the suter hit, so yeah gretzky took advantage too.

 

[The Panther]

I feel insulted to the fact that you think having Hodgkin's or non- Hodgkin's Lymphoma is basically a spider or mosquito bite...

Now you're being silly. I did not suggest any such thing!

 

[daver]

Dude this isn't about Gretzky and his body of work. I don't care to argue against him, hes the GOAT. I'm a fan too.

But I'm more impressed with Mario's peak, and the point of the thread is about his miracle season in 92-93.

Their hockey minds were very much on par, but they had very different bodies and tools, and very different luck with health.

Since you are claiming that Mario's pace that year was more impressive than Wayne's best based on baseless speculation, then you have to expect posts comparing their respective bodies of work. It is almost comical that the "92/93 season was harder to score" argument gets thrown out in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

It should be universally acknowledged that Mario overcame unprecedented hurdles that season but a more difficult scoring environment than what Wayne faced is not one of them.

 

[BenchBrawl]

If Pittsburgh had won and Lemieux won a third consecutive Smythe, it would have done a great deal for his legacy.IMO this would made him equal to Gretzky, Howe and Orr.Pittsburgh would have been a dynasty, Lemieux the undisputed leader cleaning all Smythes, an heroic story of coming back from cancer playing at an infernal pace to clean the RS awards and ultimately his third straight Stanley Cup, etc.

It would also raise his playoff standing to the very top.

 

[bobholly39]

Now you're being silly. I did not suggest any such thing!

I think you really need to drop this line of conversation

 

[bobholly39]

If Pittsburgh had won and Lemieux won a third consecutive Smythe, it would have done a great deal for his legacy.IMO this would made him equal to Gretzky, Howe and Orr.Pittsburgh would have been a dynasty, Lemieux the undisputed leader cleaning all Smythes, an heroic story of coming back from cancer playing at an infernal pace to clean the RS awards and ultimately his third straight Stanley Cup, etc.

It would also raise his playoff standing to the very top.

I think if he had won the smythe and cup - people could point to that season and say "yeah Gretzky had the better career, but the best season ever? It's 93 by Lemieux".

I don't know that it does a ton for his legacy though to be honest. I think his legacy is already pretty great as is - and 1 more smythe/cup wouldn't really change that too much. I think the impact would be strictly on the season itself, but for overall legacy he'd likely still be seen the same as he is today for the most part.

Pittsburgh is already seen as somewhat of a mini-dynasty, and Lemieux as their undisputed leader. And it's already a heroic story his 93 comeback, despite the playoff elimination. So I don't think it necessarily has a huge impact on his legacy.

 

[The Panther]

I think if he had won the smythe and cup - people could point to that season and say "yeah Gretzky had the better career, but the best season ever? It's 93 by Lemieux".

Wait... Why would anyone be saying that?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Or that he was playing for League-dominant team for the only time in his career.

Could be.

Could also be they were dominant due to Mario's dominant performance.

 

[The Panther]

Could be.

Could also be they were dominant due to Mario's dominant performance.

Sure, they're part and parcel. But then it leads to the question -- why wasn't his performance dominant in 1989-90 (-18)?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Sure, they're part and parcel. But then it leads to the question -- why wasn't his performance dominant in 1989-90 (-18)?

No team success. Missed the playoffs. Individually prolific but empty otherwise.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Sure, they're part and parcel. But then it leads to the question -- why wasn't his performance dominant in 1989-90 (-18)?

My guess would be because he played very little (if any) defense.

Scoring 123 points in 59 games and still being -18 is no small feat.

Though Paul Coffey as a defenseman scored 103 points and was -25. Even more remarkable.

Coaching change after that season probably did a lot for Mario's overall game.

 

[ted2019]

Lemieux's overcoming cancer is indeed a great event, deservedly celebrated. But as far as the 1992-93 season goes, I mean, a lump on your neck doesn't interfere with hockey ability.

I agree with the idea (above) that Lemieux, and his teammates, likely got a big psychological lift when Mario came back. Maybe they were peaking anyway, and then Lemieux's comeback pushed everyone to new levels.

I wonder, though, if Mario's radiation treatments didn't fatigue him once the big high of overcoming the cancer wore off. He seemed to slow down as the playoffs went on, then barely played for two years.

As far as the greatest season ever goes... his team choked in the playoffs and he missed 24 games. The competition is pretty stiff when it comes to the single greatest season ever.

You wrote that a limp on your neck has nothing to do with hockey ability. The poison that they put in your body however does, I know so first hand.

 

[JianYang]

What about Mario's 199 point season? I mean, how much support did he have on that team to put up those types of numbers other than Paul Coffey?