He was on a 209-point pace. (Though that's being optimistic, as his pace slowed down noticeably in the second half.)?
=214.7 point pace for the season.[TBODY] [/TBODY]
1988-89 Pittsburgh Penguins NHL 76 85 114 199
Nice try though.
Or that he was playing for League-dominant team for the only time in his career.The fact that Mario was a +55 in 60 games seems to indicate that he was putting in the best effort of his career.
He was on a 209-point pace. (Though that's being optimistic, as his pace slowed down noticeably in the second half.)
Team were playing 80 games in 88-89.2.618pts/gp x 82 games = 214.71pts.
Team were playing 80 games in 88-89.
This argument holds no water. Lemieux's team was "terrible" for one season only (1984-85), and then was competitive, though not great, thereafter. Wayne Gretzky's team was also friggin' terrible in 1979-80 and pretty poor in 1980-81. Why don't Lemieux's totals his first two season come anywhere near Gretzky's? According to you, the League was easier in the mid-80s. (And it was higher-scoring in Lemieux's first two seasons than in Gretzky's first two.)Because he was a friggin teenager dude, on a terrible team.... thats why.
Here are his next closest teammates (he was alone on an island).
87-88
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Mario Lemieux F 77 70 98 168 [TBODY] [/TBODY]
Dan Quinn C 70 40 39 79 86-87[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Randy Cunneyworth L 71 35 39 74
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Mario Lemieux F 63 54 53 107 [TBODY] [/TBODY]
Dan Quinn 1 C 64 28 43 71 85-86[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Randy Cunneyworth L 79 26 27 53
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Mario Lemieux F 79 48 93 141 [TBODY] [/TBODY]
Mike Bullard F 77 41 42 83 [TBODY] [/TBODY]
Moe Mantha D 78 15 52 67
1 | Wayne Gretzky* | 19 | C | 79 | 51 | 86 | 137 | ||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
2 | Blair MacDonald | 26 | RW | 80 | 46 | 48 | 94 | ||||||
3 | Stan Weir | 27 | C | 79 | 33 | 33 | 66 | ||||||
4 | Brett Callighen | 26 | LW | 59 | 23 | 35 | 58 | ||||||
1 | Wayne Gretzky* | 20 | C | 80 | 55 | 109 | 164 | |||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
2 | Jari Kurri* | 20 | LW | 75 | 32 | 43 | 75 | |||||
3 | Mark Messier* | 20 | LW | 72 | 23 | 40 | 63 | |||||
4 | Brett Callighen | 27 | C | 55 | 25 | 35 | 60 | 1 |
1 | Wayne Gretzky* | 21 | C | 80 | 92 | 120 | 212 | |||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
2 | Glenn Anderson* | 21 | RW | 80 | 38 | 67 | 105 | |||||
3 | Paul Coffey* | 20 | D | 80 | 29 | 60 | 89 | 3 |
I'm sorry you feel insulted.As someone who has had several "lumps on his neck", your statement is really insulting. Hopefully you will never go through that. I had 6 1/2 months on Chemo every other week for 2 1/2 a session. Chemo is A LOT worse then Radiation, but it's still draining energy-wise. My energy level at best, is 20% of what it use to be on a good day.
This argument holds no water. Lemieux's team was "terrible" for one season only (1984-85), and then was competitive, though not great, thereafter. Wayne Gretzky's team was also friggin' terrible in 1979-80 and pretty poor in 1980-81. Why don't Lemieux's totals his first two season come anywhere near Gretzky's? According to you, the League was easier in the mid-80s. (And it was higher-scoring in Lemieux's first two seasons than in Gretzky's first two.)
Here's Gretzky's teams's leading scorers his first three seasons:
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
1 Wayne Gretzky* 19 C 79 51 86 137 2 Blair MacDonald 26 RW 80 46 48 94 3 Stan Weir 27 C 79 33 33 66 4 Brett Callighen 26 LW 59 23 35 58 [TBODY] [/TBODY]
1 Wayne Gretzky* 20 C 80 55 109 164 2 Jari Kurri* 20 LW 75 32 43 75 3 Mark Messier* 20 LW 72 23 40 63 4 Brett Callighen 27 C 55 25 35 60 1 So, in Mario's first three seasons (in the "easier" NHL), he finished 121 points ahead of his teammates, while Gretzky finished 239 points ahead of his. Mario, by the way, was also -29 and Gretzky +135.[TBODY] [/TBODY]
1 Wayne Gretzky* 21 C 80 92 120 212 2 Glenn Anderson* 21 RW 80 38 67 105 3 Paul Coffey* 20 D 80 29 60 89 3
Next, if Lemieux was doing better against better competition, how do you explain the fact that Gretzky wiped the floor with Lemieux -- throughout their careers, including when Wayne was past his prime and on bad teams -- when they played head-to-head. It's not even close.
In conclusion, there is, as usual, zero evidence and only speculation that a prime-Gretzky wouldn't have put up the same numbers in the nineties (and 2000-01) that Lemieux did.
Pens played those three teams 8 times, averaging 5.5 goals in each. Dilution, sir, with 44 goals worth of stat-padding
So why didn't Mario chew up the significantly inferior mid-80s? This doesn't pass the eye test at all.
I'm sorry you feel insulted.
Mario, however, did not have several lumps on his neck or 6-and-a-half months of chemo.
I wrote, in my post, about the likelihood of Mario's lacking energy just down the road from his return to NHL action. I am not clear why you feel insulted, but I'm sorry if you do.
Everyone in that top 20 except for Lemieux (still is best ppg I think), Yzerman, Sakic, Hull, Fleury, Francis, Kevin Stevens (because he played only 72 games), Bure, Roenick, had their best offensive season, many by a large amount.
I agree with your entire post for the most part. Especially the angle with the expansion teams (my own Sens had a historically bad season).
But Gretzky of all people should have had an advantage that year too (won the art ross the following year), and while he only played 45 games (15 less than mario), his PPG was below his standards.
So if Gretzky and the 9 guys above (most are HHOF caliber - and better players than the guys having career years) couldnt post career seasons/PPG totals with this supposed advantage, Im just not ready to call that year a huge anomaly and change my stance on Mario. We see plenty of 100+ point players before and after that season.
Now you're being silly. I did not suggest any such thing!I feel insulted to the fact that you think having Hodgkin's or non- Hodgkin's Lymphoma is basically a spider or mosquito bite...
Dude this isn't about Gretzky and his body of work. I don't care to argue against him, hes the GOAT. I'm a fan too.
But I'm more impressed with Mario's peak, and the point of the thread is about his miracle season in 92-93.
Their hockey minds were very much on par, but they had very different bodies and tools, and very different luck with health.
Now you're being silly. I did not suggest any such thing!
If Pittsburgh had won and Lemieux won a third consecutive Smythe, it would have done a great deal for his legacy.IMO this would made him equal to Gretzky, Howe and Orr.Pittsburgh would have been a dynasty, Lemieux the undisputed leader cleaning all Smythes, an heroic story of coming back from cancer playing at an infernal pace to clean the RS awards and ultimately his third straight Stanley Cup, etc.
It would also raise his playoff standing to the very top.
Wait... Why would anyone be saying that?I think if he had won the smythe and cup - people could point to that season and say "yeah Gretzky had the better career, but the best season ever? It's 93 by Lemieux".
Or that he was playing for League-dominant team for the only time in his career.
Sure, they're part and parcel. But then it leads to the question -- why wasn't his performance dominant in 1989-90 (-18)?Could be.
Could also be they were dominant due to Mario's dominant performance.
Sure, they're part and parcel. But then it leads to the question -- why wasn't his performance dominant in 1989-90 (-18)?
Sure, they're part and parcel. But then it leads to the question -- why wasn't his performance dominant in 1989-90 (-18)?
Lemieux's overcoming cancer is indeed a great event, deservedly celebrated. But as far as the 1992-93 season goes, I mean, a lump on your neck doesn't interfere with hockey ability.
I agree with the idea (above) that Lemieux, and his teammates, likely got a big psychological lift when Mario came back. Maybe they were peaking anyway, and then Lemieux's comeback pushed everyone to new levels.
I wonder, though, if Mario's radiation treatments didn't fatigue him once the big high of overcoming the cancer wore off. He seemed to slow down as the playoffs went on, then barely played for two years.
As far as the greatest season ever goes... his team choked in the playoffs and he missed 24 games. The competition is pretty stiff when it comes to the single greatest season ever.