Legends Tournament: Level A, round 3: Ovechkin Versus Crosby

Who is better all-time?


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wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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I would never advocate for a single per game stat without context.

I guess at least you are consistent here.

Ovechkin is superior to Crosby on a per game basis - has 1 less goal in 36 fewer games. The primary difference between them is Crosby had Malkin for his entire career. It's a huge advantage.

The problem is that you will use PPG in the context of trying to make Ovechkin look better in a single category, goal scoring.

The real context is that Crosby has been a much better playoff performer in his career.

Funny that because no one ever argues that Crosby is a better goal scorer than Ovechkin.
 

Midnight Judges

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I guess at least you are consistent here.



The problem is that you will use PPG in the context of trying to make Ovechkin look better in a single category, goal scoring.

The real context is that Crosby has been a much better playoff performer in his career.

Funny that because no one ever argues that Crosby is a better goal scorer than Ovechkin.

The basis of my comment that Ovechkin is superior on a per game basis to Crosby is an objective scoring system where goals and assists are weighted using a statistical basis:

Top Offensive Players Since 2005, Using an Objective Scoring System
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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The basis of my comment that Ovechkin is superior on a per game basis to Crosby is an objective scoring system where goals and assists are weighted using a statistical basis:

Top Offensive Players Since 2005, Using an Objective Scoring System

You do realize that your scoring system is also 100% subjective right?

you started that thread with this line

The purpose of this thread is to look at the top 30 offensive players

which should have read like this,

The purpose of this thread is to prop up Ovechkin and knock down Crosby.

Transparency baby.

Of course anyone can claim they are being objective but everything is subjective in my objective opinion.:sarcasm:
 

bobholly39

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Mar 10, 2013
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The basis of my comment that Ovechkin is superior on a per game basis to Crosby is an objective scoring system where goals and assists are weighted using a statistical basis:

Top Offensive Players Since 2005, Using an Objective Scoring System

Outside of everything else that i disagree with you on - the one huge flaw in your playoff analogy that you don't seem to consider is that - more games played for player 1 is a net benefit for that player, and too bad for the other guy.

Not all opportunities are created equal in the playoffs. Those who play on better teams (for top players - often they are major contributors to those better teams to begin with, and some of that merit falls on them accordingly) and end up playing more playoff games and more playoff rounds - well it will be a differentiator vs those who play less games/less rounds by virtue of playing on weaker teams/teams who don't succeed as much.

So basically - Crosby, and Malkin, both easily have better overall playoff resumes than Ovechkin. You can't and shouldn't try to ignore games played in the playoffs.

Games played (and wins) is a huge reason why Patrick Roy is in conversation for top playoff player ever. Yes he had some good teams - but was also a huge part in making those teams good.

So ~40 more playoff games + ~60 more playoff points for Crosby vs Ovechkin is obviously advantage Crosby.

You'd probably get farther in your Ovi > Crosby argument if you didn't waste time trying to spin every single point to Ovechkin's favor, some of which are ridiculous. It's almost surprising i've yet to see you say that Ovechkin > Crosby at being a center in the playoffs since he's won 71% of his faceoffs, vs 51% for Crosby..
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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Hey remember when you first joined the forum and claimed not to be a Crosby fan? Good times.

No idea on what you are talking about here.

Source?

Or perhaps you are confusing the term fanboy and fan?

I'm a long suffering Canucks fan but more in general a fan of the game of hockey.
 

Midnight Judges

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Outside of everything else that i disagree with you on - the one huge flaw in your playoff analogy that you don't seem to consider is that - more games played for player 1 is a net benefit for that player, and too bad for the other guy.

Not all opportunities are created equal in the playoffs. Those who play on better teams (for top players - often they are major contributors to those better teams to begin with, and some of that merit falls on them accordingly) and end up playing more playoff games and more playoff rounds - well it will be a differentiator vs those who play less games/less rounds by virtue of playing on weaker teams/teams who don't succeed as much.

So basically - Crosby, and Malkin, both easily have better overall playoff resumes than Ovechkin. You can't and shouldn't try to ignore games played in the playoffs.

Games played (and wins) is a huge reason why Patrick Roy is in conversation for top playoff player ever. Yes he had some good teams - but was also a huge part in making those teams good.

So ~40 more playoff games + ~60 more playoff points for Crosby vs Ovechkin is obviously advantage Crosby.

You'd probably get farther in your Ovi > Crosby argument if you didn't waste time trying to spin every single point to Ovechkin's favor, some of which are ridiculous. It's almost surprising i've yet to see you say that Ovechkin > Crosby at being a center in the playoffs since he's won 71% of his faceoffs, vs 51% for Crosby..

We differ in that I think players should only get credit for things that are inside their control or otherwise attributable to their individual characteristics.

Crosby is lucky to have Malkin - the third best player of the generation - on his team. It is a huge advantage that is outside Crosby's control, and it has contributed significantly to Crosby's postseason games played.

A forward has some control over whether or not their team advances, but that control is limited - far more limited than most hockey fans realize. Hopefully we are in agreement on this. There is a mountain of evidence. Therefore, the credit they get for additional games played in the postseason should also be limited, and per game stats become more telling relative to the regular season where every player has an opportunity to play 82 games.

So yes I agree players deserve credit for additional playoff games played - but IMO it's limited to the extent that their per game contributions are superior when comparing players.

Over the course of their playoff careers, Crosby's team has scored significantly more than Ovechkin's when they are not on the ice.

There are instances where Crosby was a passenger and his teammates carried him to a playoff series win. There are zero instances where Ovechkin was a passenger and his teammates carried him to a playoff series win. Crosby's teams have advanced in 5 playoff series where Crosby had 3 or fewer primary points, including 1 series win where he had 2 primary points and another series win where he had zero primary points. That is just luck. Crosby had very little control over that. Crediting him because he got to play more games in those instances is too arbitrary.

For Ovechkin, that number is 1 - a series win where he had 3 goals. He never had a third line like HBK or anything close to that except for 2018 when the third and fourth lines contributed a good bit.
 
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