Lebrun: If Crosby wins another Stanley Cup, he will then become better than Toews

[Gooch]

Absolutely Francis was solid. That isn't enough to suddenly surpass Howe. The argument surrounding points per game and total points is also pretty weak. Howe played in a significantly lower scoring era and played 70 game seasons. Francis played at the perfect time to have a very high points per game average and high total points, which is worth considering just as much as Howe's competition. Francis was a good two way player though like you said, as Howe was.

As far as Lemieux, I said that Howe wouldn't be able to beat Lemieux for scoring titles. I should perhaps have specified that Howe couldn't outscore a healthy Lemieux. Considering Howe's far better longevity, consistency and all around play he has a solid argument to go over Lemieux. I suppose that this is deviating a bit from the Crosby > Toews tautology.

A good chunk of Francis' career was during the dead puck era though.

Regardless, the argument wasn't really about Francis vs Howe but more that Howe really has no business in being in a top 3 over Lemieux. If you're going to push statistical longevity to make the case for Howe then you have to put Messier or Francis in the discussion as well and as we know those guys couldn't hold a candle to Lemieux either.

I just don't hold the reverence for players in the original 6 era that many might. I see it as a time when the sport was very limited with fewer playing it and less overall competition. It's easier to rise to the top in that scenario than the extremely hyper competitive nature that is hockey today. Howe didn't have to compete against fantastic european talent, Howe didn't have to compete against fantastic american talent. Howe didn't have 29 other team leaders in points to compete against. He was the big cheese of his team in a 6 team league. That's a good accomplishment but not top 3 all time accomplishment over a player that had a 199 point season a close to 2.00 points per game average over the course of his career and a matching amount of Art Ross trophies despite playing in a MUCH more competitive era against Wayne Gretzky. The fact that guys like Lebrun consider Howe to be better than Lemieux all time just strikes me as insane. The accomplishments aren't even remotely close.

 

[Gooch]

What if Malkin was always on another team (i.e. Sid-less)? More points?

Yeah he would have more points. He'd have considerably better wingers as well and be the focal point of a powerplay attack and get the key ice situations. It has been shown his level of production rises when Crosby is out of the lineup.

 

[HP00]

I wonder if Jagr gets 2000 points if he can be elevated over Toews

 

[mobifree]

LOL. Who outside Chicago or Manitoba thinks Toews is better than Crosby?

 

[These Are The Days]

No kidding Lebrun you think? When was Crosby not better than Toews. In fact... when was Crosby never anything but the best in the world. Things like this is why Toews gets such a bad rap here.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Crosby is already better than Toews at this point. I wouldn't have said that during his unstable annual meltdown phase, but Sullivan has ended that.

 

[Saskatoon]

I almost feel bad for Toews... the media's overhype of him (and the NHL putting him in the top 100) gives him a lot of hate from other fans that really he didn't do anything to create. It's not like he is an jerk on or off the ice... but wow is he overhyped

 

[zzoo]

Now, we understand why Toews is the most over-rated athlete on Earth in the whole history of mankind.

 

[JackSlater]

A good chunk of Francis' career was during the dead puck era though.

Regardless, the argument wasn't really about Francis vs Howe but more that Howe really has no business in being in a top 3 over Lemieux. If you're going to push statistical longevity to make the case for Howe then you have to put Messier or Francis in the discussion as well and as we know those guys couldn't hold a candle to Lemieux either.

I just don't hold the reverence for players in the original 6 era that many might. I see it as a time when the sport was very limited with fewer playing it and less overall competition. It's easier to rise to the top in that scenario than the extremely hyper competitive nature that is hockey today. Howe didn't have to compete against fantastic european talent, Howe didn't have to compete against fantastic american talent. Howe didn't have 29 other team leaders in points to compete against. He was the big cheese of his team in a 6 team league. That's a good accomplishment but not top 3 all time accomplishment over a player that had a 199 point season a close to 2.00 points per game average over the course of his career and a matching amount of Art Ross trophies despite playing in a MUCH more competitive era against Wayne Gretzky. The fact that guys like Lebrun consider Howe to be better than Lemieux all time just strikes me as insane. The accomplishments aren't even remotely close.

Francis played the vast majority of his career in a much higher scoring era, and for two of the "dead puck" years he still got to play with Jagr. Howe's whole first NHL career was played in a scoring environment similar to the dead puck era. You are also misunderstanding what Howe's longevity really represents. It isn't that Howe played a long time as just a top end player in a high scoring era, like Francis. Howe was a six time scoring leader (and a six time MVP) who was top 5 in scoring for 20 years. Francis was only top five in scoring when he was able to play with Jagr, and even then it was only three times. It is highly disingenuous to pretend that Howe and Francis are even close to equally deserving to be compared to Howe.

 

[SidGenoMario]

I wonder if Jagr gets 2000 points if he can be elevated over Toews

How many intangibles would Jagr have if he didn't leave for the KHL for 3 years?

 

[lawrence]

He's not talking about individual skill, just player success and the cup is the ultimate prize

Seriously? if that's the case Marion Hossa is also better then Crosby.

Epic fail by Lebrun. Never once was toews better then Crosby.

 

[Reality Check]

Even Tim Tebow believes Toews is overrated.

 

[Igor Shestyorkin]

I don't care if he's talking about team accomplishments, Toews being mentioned in the same breath as Crosby is a criminal offense.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

Even Tim Tebow believes Toews is overrated.

Lol. Game. Set. Match.

 

[Never]

Wrong

Yes, you are.

 

[SidDidNothingWrong]

He already is better than Toews. The only thing Toews is better at is making grumpy faces and giving pre-game speeches.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Nice tongue in cheek Tweet Lebrun.

Serious afterthought question though, what would it take to get Malkin above Toews in the mind of the "experts" who made the Top 100 Players list?

 

[HandshakeLine]

Why does Lebrun still have a job? He's rarely right about anything, and when he is, it's such milquetoast weaselly nonsense that it's almost nonsensical.

"If [player d'jour] does something amazing, then [player d'jour] is definitely an amazing player!"

Great analysis, Pierre. Now go give Vincent Price back his goatee.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Nice tongue in cheek Tweet Lebrun.

Serious afterthought question though, what would it take to get Malkin above Toews in the mind of the "experts" who made the Top 100 Players list?

Exchanging his Russian passport for a Canadian one.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Changing his Russian passport for a Canadian one.

Have more intangibles.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Crosby is too 5 all time. And In before the nostalgia old person bias where they can't comprehend that Yzerman and Frederic weren't "way better" than Crosby. He's top 5 and there's no argument

There are tons of arguments. I'd like to hear yours for him being top 5 though. I have him in the top 15. He might squeeze into the top 10 if they win the cup this year.

Basically by saying that after Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux, there is maybe only one more player ever as great as Crosby. That's just not the case. At all. Not yet anyway, he still has a lot of time to move up to becoming top 5. But he isn't there yet.

 

[TorstenFrings]

Nice tongue in cheek Tweet Lebrun.

Serious afterthought question though, what would it take to get Malkin above Toews in the mind of the "experts" who made the Top 100 Players list?

One less head on the eagle in the passport.

 

[Stuzchuk]

I actually read 3 times the name Crosby to make sure that I've read the twit correctly

even with 1 cup Crosby is already better than Toews

 

[STC]

the whole premise of the article is false because the only thing that separates Crosby's "post season success" from Toews at this point is that Crosby was fortunate in that his team got puck luck in OT of game 7 of the conference finals whereas Toews' team got bad puck luck in OT of game 7 of the conference finals in 2014.

A bounce goes a different direction in 2014 and a shot doesn't flutter off Kunitz's stick last week and this whole argument is pointless.

 

[FDBluth]

A good chunk of Francis' career was during the dead puck era though.

Regardless, the argument wasn't really about Francis vs Howe but more that Howe really has no business in being in a top 3 over Lemieux. If you're going to push statistical longevity to make the case for Howe then you have to put Messier or Francis in the discussion as well and as we know those guys couldn't hold a candle to Lemieux either.

I just don't hold the reverence for players in the original 6 era that many might. I see it as a time when the sport was very limited with fewer playing it and less overall competition. It's easier to rise to the top in that scenario than the extremely hyper competitive nature that is hockey today. Howe didn't have to compete against fantastic european talent, Howe didn't have to compete against fantastic american talent. Howe didn't have 29 other team leaders in points to compete against. He was the big cheese of his team in a 6 team league. That's a good accomplishment but not top 3 all time accomplishment over a player that had a 199 point season a close to 2.00 points per game average over the course of his career and a matching amount of Art Ross trophies despite playing in a MUCH more competitive era against Wayne Gretzky. The fact that guys like Lebrun consider Howe to be better than Lemieux all time just strikes me as insane. The accomplishments aren't even remotely close.

You should look up how much Howe when a lot of his scoring titles by. He was absolutely at a Lemieux level of dominance during his prime. The league was obviously different with only 6 teams, etc., but he was still a clear level above everyone else in the league at that time.