LeBron legacy if he wins title with Lakers

[kanuck87]

And let's be real. If a team with Lebron and two other sure-fire HOFers (Bosh and Wade) in their primes win only 2 championships in the 4 seasons they were together, LeBron's not the GOAT. They lost to a Mavs team led by a 32-year old Dirk Nowitzki and a mish-mash collection of talent. This one, by far, should have been the easiest one to win out of the 4 finals they went to.

 

[swerdnase]

Just watch the video I posted, it spells it all out in factual numbers and again, the weaknesses debate is telling. I can't repeat them verbatim but here are some of the weaknesses that Lebron has (vs none for Jordan). 1) His below average shooting from 3 feet and out. He shoots under 40 % and it's closer to 30 % late in the game. 2) He's a weak free throw shooter and 3) He only makes 20% of his clutch situation shots. Jordan shot roughly 50% in the same situation. How can you be the best of all time shooting so poorly in general and especially when it counts?

 

[Stylizer1]

And let's be real. If a team with Lebron and two other sure-fire HOFers (Bosh and Wade) in their primes win only 2 championships in the 4 seasons they were together, LeBron's not the GOAT. They lost to a Mavs team led by a 32-year old Dirk Nowitzki and a mish-mash collection of talent. This one, by far, should have been the easiest one to win out of the 4 finals they went to.

Bosh averaged more points and rebounds in that finals than LeBron.

 

[swerdnase]

And let's be real. If a team with Lebron and two other sure-fire HOFers (Bosh and Wade) in their primes win only 2 championships in the 4 seasons they were together, LeBron's not the GOAT. They lost to a Mavs team led by a 32-year old Dirk Nowitzki and a mish-mash collection of talent. This one, by far, should have been the easiest one to win out of the 4 finals they went to.

People like to say that if you put Jordan on some of LeBron's teams he wouldn't have won. I'd argue that hypothetically, he would have done better. Michael Jordan could play LeBron's role better than LeBron. In the 1988-89 season and playoffs, Michael played the point guard distributor role that LeBron plays for 41 games. I'd say that's a pretty good sample size. His numbers? 32.2 points, 9.4 assists, 8.3 rebounds and 2.8 steals. Those numbers are better than LeBron's career averages of 27.1 points, 7.4 assists, 7.4 rebounds and 1.6 steals. Not to mention that when you needed the points down the stretch, he'd pour them in. So if you put a better LeBron, who is also a better down the stretch/clutch player, in LeBron's place is it so inconceivable that he would have won more?

 

[Voight]

And let's be real. If a team with Lebron and two other sure-fire HOFers (Bosh and Wade) in their primes win only 2 championships in the 4 seasons they were together, LeBron's not the GOAT. They lost to a Mavs team led by a 32-year old Dirk Nowitzki and a mish-mash collection of talent. This one, by far, should have been the easiest one to win out of the 4 finals they went to.

Nevermind he averaged a paltry 17 PPG and was completely shut down. If not for Wade carrying the team it would have probably been a 4 game sweep.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Hard to say. If LeBron stays healthy he could win three championships with the Lakers. His ability to get to the Finals no matter who he plays with is amazing. His legacy is still being written. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the ride and the fact that I get to watch one of the best ever.

 

[Deficient Mode]

You don't think Lebron had Cleveland wrapped around his finger? They went out and got the players they could his first time around. They got to the Finals prematurely and could never match that run. He had his heart set on going to Miami and when he changed his number before the season from 23 to 6. It was the sign he was leaving seeing as 23 was already retired in Miami. His second time around he had full control.

Riley did everything for him in creating a championship team over night, it wasn't Lebron. Bosh and Wade were top players in the league. Miami was an arranged marriage for 4 years. Kyrie and Love were top players in the league(Kyrie was young but still a top point guard). AD is probably in the top 3 in the league and Lebron will ride his coat tails to continue winning. Howard is not a back up in the league but he is not a an all star anymore, just a solid enter who can go off. As great as Lebron has been he has had way more options to put himself in a position to win more than any other player before him. That's something all the players I mentioned did not do. Because Durant did it doesn't make it any more of a accomplishment to win as a mercenary.

Maybe the fact that Lebron has lost so much in his career means his style of play is not cohesive with winning? I've said this many times over the years but Lebron style of play disrupts the flow of an offence. He's not a point guard and he is not an off the ball shooter/slasher, and he's not a post player. He is somewhere in the middle of them which makes having a point guard redundant and makes everyone a spot up shooter. Because he had the ball in his hand so much he made Irving redundant which led to Irving wanting out.

Lebron has the benefit of signing shorter contracts in order to guarantee he is in position to win every season. Nothing wrong with that. He's just making sure he's considered the greatest because of padding his stats and playing for 20 years over domination and having great teams. No one considers the Miami heat one of the great teams for going to the finals 4 straight and winning 2. People consider what he did by upsetting GS a great feat because it was and he earned every bit of the praise for that championship.

This is complete nonsense that you talked yourself into because you enjoy cheering against Lebron. Every single thing you said here is either false or doesn't matter. Who cares if he played GM? That doesn't mean he was able to get every player he wanted at no cost. Second stint Cleveland and this Lakers team paid to acquire Love and AD. Cleveland before 2010 didn't build patiently or correctly to pay for another great player, so they completely failed to build an actual contender. Your notion of Lebron's positionlessness being a problem is hilarious. Lebron's incredible playmaking also covered for Kyrie's subpar playmaking as a point guard. And Kyrie's on and off court results since leaving Cleveland don't exactly suggest Lebron was the problem there.

The only stain on Lebron's career was the 2011 finals. His style is definitely conducive to winning. Otherwise when he lost in the finals, he lost to all-time great teams that totally outmatched the supporting talent on his teams. I guess he was due not to face a complete juggernaut of a team in the finals for once and to have another top 7 player in the league who actually fit with him.

 

[Deficient Mode]

People like to say that if you put Jordan on some of LeBron's teams he wouldn't have won. I'd argue that hypothetically, he would have done better. Michael Jordan could play LeBron's role better than LeBron. In the 1988-89 season and playoffs, Michael played the point guard distributor role that LeBron plays for 41 games. I'd say that's a pretty good sample size. His numbers? 32.2 points, 9.4 assists, 8.3 rebounds and 2.8 steals. Those numbers are better than LeBron's career averages of 27.1 points, 7.4 assists, 7.4 rebounds and 1.6 steals. Not to mention that when you needed the points down the stretch, he'd pour them in. So if you put a better LeBron, who is also a better down the stretch/clutch player, in LeBron's place is it so inconceivable that he would have won more?

Lebron was a score first player for most of his career too! It's not just about passing volume over a small selected sample when a player elected to focus on it - otherwise Lebron this year obviously trumps that. Jordan was not close to Lebron as a distributor. He grew as his career progressed and became a good passer who could sometimes make spectacular passes but he still missed a lot of easy looks. Lack of illegal defense/overloading defenses and the dominance of the pick-and-roll game rather than ISO make it a completely different animal to play like Lebron than to play like Jordan. Jordan could not step into Lebron's role on the same teams and do it better.

And I highly doubt the accuracy of the clutch stats you cited. Or they were filtered for such a narrow range of criteria to return few enough shot attempts to be meaningful. Lebron has good shooting accuracy in the closing minutes of close playoff games.

 

[Stylizer1]

This is complete nonsense that you talked yourself into because you enjoy cheering against Lebron. Every single thing you said here is either false or doesn't matter. Who cares if he played GM? That doesn't mean he was able to get every player he wanted at no cost. Second stint Cleveland and this Lakers team paid to acquire Love and AD. Cleveland before 2010 didn't build patiently or correctly to pay for another great player, so they completely failed to build an actual contender. Your notion of Lebron's positionlessness being a problem is hilarious. Lebron's incredible playmaking also covered for Kyrie's subpar playmaking as a point guard. And Kyrie's on and off court results since leaving Cleveland don't exactly suggest Lebron was the problem there.

The only stain on Lebron's career was the 2011 finals. His style is definitely conducive to winning. Otherwise when he lost in the finals, he lost to all-time great teams that totally outmatched the supporting talent on his teams. I guess he was due not to face a complete juggernaut of a team in the finals for once and to have another top 7 player in the league who actually fit with him.

That fact is Lebron wasn't good enough to bring players to him so he went to them. He strategically puts himself in position to win every season. Last season he knew the team wasn't good enough and that he would have to wait 1 season to put together a championship roster. Lebron is the biggest opportunist in sports.



noun: opportunist; plural noun: opportunists
a person who exploits circumstances to gain immediate advantage rather than being guided by consistent principles or plans.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

That fact is Lebron wasn't good enough to bring players to him so he went to them. He strategically puts himself in position to win every season. Last season he knew the team wasn't good enough and that he would have to wait 1 season to put together a championship roster. Lebron is the biggest opportunist in sports.



noun: opportunist; plural noun: opportunists
a person who exploits circumstances to gain immediate advantage rather than being guided by consistent principles or plans.

Okay, Skip Bayless...

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Lebron was a score first player for most of his career too! It's not just about passing volume over a small selected sample when a player elected to focus on it - otherwise Lebron this year obviously trumps that. Jordan was not close to Lebron as a distributor. He grew as his career progressed and became a good passer who could sometimes make spectacular passes but he still missed a lot of easy looks. Lack of illegal defense/overloading defenses and the dominance of the pick-and-roll game rather than ISO make it a completely different animal to play like Lebron than to play like Jordan. Jordan could not step into Lebron's role on the same teams and do it better.
And I highly doubt the accuracy of the clutch stats you cited. Or they were filtered for such a narrow range of criteria to return few enough shot attempts to be meaningful. Lebron has good shooting accuracy in the closing minutes of close playoff games.

Jordan's coach admitted that they had him play point guard so he could pad his stats and win MVP.

 

[SouthGeorge]

10-15 range

 

[Stylizer1]

Okay, Skip Bayless...

No problem Shannon Sherp.

 

[swerdnase]

Lebron was a score first player for most of his career too! It's not just about passing volume over a small selected sample when a player elected to focus on it - otherwise Lebron this year obviously trumps that. Jordan was not close to Lebron as a distributor. He grew as his career progressed and became a good passer who could sometimes make spectacular passes but he still missed a lot of easy looks. Lack of illegal defense/overloading defenses and the dominance of the pick-and-roll game rather than ISO make it a completely different animal to play like Lebron than to play like Jordan. Jordan could not step into Lebron's role on the same teams and do it better.

And I highly doubt the accuracy of the clutch stats you cited. Or they were filtered for such a narrow range of criteria to return few enough shot attempts to be meaningful. Lebron has good shooting accuracy in the closing minutes of close playoff games.

Regarding your first paragraph, I would say that putting up numbers better than LeBron playing his type of role for 41 games is a decent sample size. That's half a season. We'll never know what would happen in the hypothetical where Jordan plays in place of LeBron but as I posted its not inconceivable.

The clutch stats part of the video I posted begins at 26 minutes. It's not a small sample size. If you want to watch the part of the video regarding weaknesses in LeBron's game (I know it's a long video) go to the 18 minute mark. But really, if you have the time, watch the entire video. It's very compelling.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Jordan controlled the game and always had the ball at the end of the game. Jordan is considered one of the greatest mid range shooters of all time. Not to mention how many of those shots where taken being double and triple teamed.



How many players have won scoring championships and titles in the same year?

Well......not always.

 

[Voight]

Certainly no chance it puts him above Jordan.

 

[John Price]

Jordan controlled the game and always had the ball at the end of the game. Jordan is considered one of the greatest mid range shooters of all time. Not to mention how many of those shots where taken being double and triple teamed.



How many players have won scoring championships and titles in the same year?

Didn't Paxson hit a game winner for them?

 

[Stylizer1]

Didn't Paxson hit a game winner for them?

And as the clip says Jordan scored all 9 of Chicago's points in the 4th. Someone else had to eventually score. It was a play that they had run a few times in that game. Actually watch the clip.

 

[Stylizer1]

 

[Halladay]

Rofl, kind of ironic coming from someone like Whitlock.

 

[Voight]

And as the clip says Jordan scored all 9 of Chicago's points in the 4th. Someone else had to eventually score. It was a play that they had run a few times in that game. Actually watch the clip.

The complete opposite of the 2011 finals where LeBron averaged 3 pts in the 4th quarter.

Rofl, kind of ironic coming from someone like Whitlock.

Meh, I don't have a problem with Whitlock. Far worse people in his profession out there.

 

[Corto]

He's #3. Jordan and Kareem can't be touched.

This Lakers run is the easiest he had in his career, he didn't have to beat anyone.

I mean, you can easily say that for the Bulls. No team like Pop's Spurs or Kerr's Warriors ever stood in Jordan's way.
97 and 98 Jazz was their biggest competiton - and that's pretty poor compared to Spurs and Warriors.

 

[Suiteness]

I mean, you can easily say that for the Bulls. No team like Pop's Spurs or Kerr's Warriors ever stood in Jordan's way.
97 and 98 Jazz was their biggest competiton - and that's pretty poor compared to Spurs and Warriors.

Perhaps but the East was the much stronger conference at the time. Once the big 3 in Boston were done, Lebron pretty much sleep walked to the finals.

 

[Halladay]

I mean, you can easily say that for the Bulls. No team like Pop's Spurs or Kerr's Warriors ever stood in Jordan's way.
97 and 98 Jazz was their biggest competiton - and that's pretty poor compared to Spurs and Warriors.

Ive heard arguments from people who covered those Bulls teams and the NBA during that time that the best Bulls teams were their first two. When thinking about it, for as great as Malone and Stockton were, they were in their mid 30's by the time they made their finals. So past their peak, it is hard for me to not think the league was as good as it was in the beginning of that decade. They won 64 and 62 games in 1997 and 1998. They only got to 60 once before that, when Stockton and Malone were younger. Not like they missed any games either during that time.

Taking nothing away from Jordan and the Bulls, but their biggest competition in the East was a Knicks team that was just a bunch of bruisers. The Pacers were a good team too, but no one else really. Shaq and Penny didnt play together long enough. Though the east during LeBron's tenure wasnt challenging either from about 2011 and after.

 

[John Price]

LeBron will go down as a legend but the animus towards him is still out of this world. Although Jordan was hated on (The Last Dance portrayed this perfectly with the allure around him starting to fade with his behavior being more commonly known i.e. gambling, bashing his teammates, etc) it came nothing close to what LeBron had to go through. This guy is one of the best athletes of this generation yet has constantly had to put up with diving accusations, political accusations, etc. Why can't we just respect his greatness.

"But he isn't that good."

"But he'll never be Jordan"

"RING CHASER"

"BENEFICIARY OF CALLS"

"DIVE / FLOP"

"But his commentary on countries is hypocritical"

"But crab dribble"