LeBron legacy if he wins title with Lakers

[swerdnase]

Lebron's close but anyone with an unbiased eye can see there is no comparison. Especially telling is the no weaknesses argument for Jordan when LeBron has several. Winning more championships when you specifically go searching for and recruit personnel towards that purpose won't add to his legacy at all.

 

[Stylizer1]

Lebron's case for GOAT from a "legacy" standpoint will stem from his longevity, and specifically as the best playoff player in the game. He will never have the perfect untouched story of Jordan. Winning a title at age 35 as the best player on his team would solidify that claim down the road, whether people want to reevaluate now or not. IMO he already has the best combo of longevity and peak performance - the player who has added the most value over an entire career. Maybe someday the storytelling will reflect that.



There really isn't a good argument for Chamberlain top 3. His box score stats look incredible but there are a lot of things that reel that back a ton (terrible FT shooting; faster pace back then meaning more possessions per game and more shot attempts for him inflating his per game scoring; inability to be a playmaker and high level scorer at the same time; his team's offenses weren't much worse with him off the court).

Jordan at 35 won his last title, was MVP, best player in the league, and scoring champ. Lebron will no doubt be considered the greatest but I think it will be based solely on his longevity. He should be consistent for the next 5 years and blow all the records away but it still doesn't mean he did it better than the others. Had he remained in Cleveland they would have eventually won, just not enough for his liking. What will hurt his legacy is the amount of teams he played for regardless on how good those teams were. Dynasties are very important when it comes to success. All the players we consider the greats had them. Bird, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Jordan, Russel, all had challenges forced on them throughout their careers but still managed to lead their teams to multiple championships. No doubt Lebron will have that chance to finally be part of a dynasty if he can pull off a few chips while in LA but again his greatness will be a result of longevity and not being the greatest at his peak and winning.

 

[kanuck87]

I’m going to just leave this here, guy makes many great points.

Did you even watch the video? The narrator brings up zero valid points. Just a bunch of subjective "no one else would have been able to do the things that Lebron did" even though that's impossible to prove as fact.

 

[Stylizer1]

I’m going to just leave this here, guy makes many great points.

Just for comparisons.

 

[Deficient Mode]

There was no 3 point line during his career, so with every shot being worth 2 points, there would be very little incentive for a scorer as efficient as Wilt to pass to a teammate

With that said, Chamberlain lead the league in assists one year, how many bigmen have accomplished that?

That's the thing: he would set his mind to meet some statistical achievement over a whole season that he had been criticized for (get a bunch of assists, lead the league in field goal percentage) but he did it by sacrificing another thing (his own scoring volume plummeted). The very best offensive players ever were able to balance scoring and playmaking in the same game, and they dramatically improved their teams from when they were off the court in a way Wilt didn't. In the 60s, Oscar Robertson was in my view clearly a better offensive player. He was a more efficient scorer when you factor in free throws on less but still high volume, and a much better playmaker. Wilt was great but all-time great offense is what keeps him top 10 and not top 3.

Younger people seem to think Wilt was like Shaq, all athlete minimal skill. But Wilt apparently an excellent FT shooter in HS, and had an array of skill moves that he could shoot during the flow of the game (like his fadeaway) with no problem. His FT woes were largely psychological, as teammates have said he would often shoot over 80% FTs in practice.

Nearly every NBA player is a vastly better shooter in practice than in the game. That isn't surprising. Shaq was plenty skilled, too.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Jordan at 35 won his last title, was MVP, best player in the league, and scoring champ. Lebron will no doubt be considered the greatest but I think it will be based solely on his longevity. He should be consistent for the next 5 years and blow all the records away but it still doesn't mean he did it better than the others. Had he remained in Cleveland they would have eventually won, just not enough for his liking. What will hurt his legacy is the amount of teams he played for regardless on how good those teams were. Dynasties are very important when it comes to success. All the players we consider the greats had them. Bird, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Jordan, Russel, all had challenges forced on them throughout their careers but still managed to lead their teams to multiple championships. No doubt Lebron will have that chance to finally be part of a dynasty if he can pull off a few chips while in LA but again his greatness will be a result of longevity and not being the greatest at his peak and winning.

Jordan came into the league 3 years later and took two years off in the middle of his career. Lebron already has him beaten from a value added perspective, imo. Look at how many more regular season+postseason games he has played than Jordan... if you prefer Jordan's peak I won't argue.

Lebron moving from team to team - winning a lot but on different teams - will be part of his legacy of empowering players, and our expectations will be adjusted in the future. See how Leonard and Durant are trying to do the same. I think it's unrealistic to expect the Lakers to win a "few" titles given Lebron's age but it's possible if they get a better third wheel.

 

[swerdnase]

Will he have been a great player for a longer time? Sure, but that doesn't make you the best of all time.

 

[Stylizer1]

Jordan came into the league 3 years later and took two years off in the middle of his career. Lebron already has him beaten from a value added perspective, imo. Look at how many more regular season+postseason games he has played than Jordan... if you prefer Jordan's peak I won't argue.

Lebron moving from team to team - winning a lot but on different teams - will be part of his legacy of empowering players, and our expectations will be adjusted in the future. See how Leonard and Durant are trying to do the same. I think it's unrealistic to expect the Lakers to win a "few" titles given Lebron's age but it's possible if they get a better third wheel.

Value added? In 13 season with the Bulls he won 6 championships. Jordan was the most dominant player of his era from start to finish. Even taking 2 years off he was still the best. After coming back after 3 years off, at 40, he was still 9th in scoring.

Lebron didn't just move from team to team, he had them create championship rosters over night. That like budding in line to the front and say dam look how long this line is. Jordan, Kobe, and Duncan and to a lesser extent Curry and Thompson will go down as being the last guys to earn it the hard way.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Value added? In 13 season with the Bulls he won 6 championships. Jordan was the most dominant player of his era from start to finish. Even taking 2 years off he was still the best.

Lebron didn't just move from team to team, he had them create championship rosters over night. That like budding in line to the front and say dam look how long this line is. Jordan, Kobe, and Duncan and to a lesser extent Curry and Thompson will go down as being the last guys to earn it the hard way.

Correct, when Lebron moves to a new team they become a championship contender overnight.

And Jordan was still great, but his days as the #1 player in the NBA were over once he "retired" to play baseball.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Value added? In 13 season with the Bulls he won 6 championships. Jordan was the most dominant player of his era from start to finish. Even taking 2 years off he was still the best. After coming back after 3 years off, at 40, he was still 9th in scoring.

Lebron didn't just move from team to team, he had them create championship rosters over night. That like budding in line to the front and say dam look how long this line is. Jordan, Kobe, and Duncan and to a lesser extent Curry and Thompson will go down as being the last guys to earn it the hard way.

Yes, it's completely rational to judge great players by the factors out of their control: was the team that drafted them able to surround them with other all-time great players or multiple all-stars in their first 5 years in the league or not? This is why Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, and Curry deserve extra credit and Lebron doesn't.

The disconnect between the narrative about Lebron fabricating championship teams the easy way vs the actual quality of his teammates and how they complemented him compared to those other players is pretty staggering. AD is the first teammate he has ever had who was a positive fit with him and also a superstar. Wade in 2010 and 2011 was the only other teammate who was a top 10 player in the league...

And Jordan was not the best player from start to finish. He had 9 seasons where he was the best or arguably the best player. Lebron is at 11 to 14 depending on how generously you want to slice things up.

 

[Stylizer1]

Yes, it's completely rational to judge great players by the factors out of their control: was the team that drafted them able to surround them with other all-time great players or multiple all-stars in their first 5 years in the league or not? This is why Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, and Curry deserve extra credit and Lebron doesn't.

The disconnect between the narrative about Lebron fabricating championship teams the easy way vs the actual quality of his teammates and how they complemented him compared to those other players is pretty staggering. AD is the first teammate he has ever had who was a positive fit with him and also a superstar. Wade in 2010 and 2011 was the only other teammate who was a top 10 player in the league...

And Jordan was not the best player from start to finish. He had 9 seasons where he was the best or arguably the best player. Lebron is at 11 to 14 depending on how generously you want to slice things up.

You don't think Lebron had Cleveland wrapped around his finger? They went out and got the players they could his first time around. They got to the Finals prematurely and could never match that run. He had his heart set on going to Miami and when he changed his number before the season from 23 to 6. It was the sign he was leaving seeing as 23 was already retired in Miami. His second time around he had full control.

Riley did everything for him in creating a championship team over night, it wasn't Lebron. Bosh and Wade were top players in the league. Miami was an arranged marriage for 4 years. Kyrie and Love were top players in the league(Kyrie was young but still a top point guard). AD is probably in the top 3 in the league and Lebron will ride his coat tails to continue winning. Howard is not a back up in the league but he is not a an all star anymore, just a solid enter who can go off. As great as Lebron has been he has had way more options to put himself in a position to win more than any other player before him. That's something all the players I mentioned did not do. Because Durant did it doesn't make it any more of a accomplishment to win as a mercenary.

Maybe the fact that Lebron has lost so much in his career means his style of play is not cohesive with winning? I've said this many times over the years but Lebron style of play disrupts the flow of an offence. He's not a point guard and he is not an off the ball shooter/slasher, and he's not a post player. He is somewhere in the middle of them which makes having a point guard redundant and makes everyone a spot up shooter. Because he had the ball in his hand so much he made Irving redundant which led to Irving wanting out.

Lebron has the benefit of signing shorter contracts in order to guarantee he is in position to win every season. Nothing wrong with that. He's just making sure he's considered the greatest because of padding his stats and playing for 20 years over domination and having great teams. No one considers the Miami heat one of the great teams for going to the finals 4 straight and winning 2. People consider what he did by upsetting GS a great feat because it was and he earned every bit of the praise for that championship.

 

[kanuck87]

And Jordan was still great, but his days as the #1 player in the NBA were over once he "retired" to play baseball.

Jordan led the league in scoring in all three of his seasons after his comeback from baseball, and won MVP twice.

 

[Stylizer1]

Correct, when Lebron moves to a new team they become a championship contender overnight.

And Jordan was still great, but his days as the #1 player in the NBA were over once he "retired" to play baseball.

He needed Bosh and Wade to in Miami, he needed Kyrie and Love in Cleveland, and needed AD in LA to become contenders overnight.

So who was better than Jordan when he came back to the Bulls and won championships 4,5, and 6?

 

[Stylizer1]

Jordan led the league in scoring in all three of his seasons after his comeback from baseball, and won MVP twice.

I thought that didn't make sense.

 

[kanuck87]

There's no debate. Jordan willed the Bulls to 6 championships in 8 seasons against many talented teams, some deeper than the Bulls, but Jordan was always the difference-maker. As good as LeBron is, he always needed help, whether it was with the Heat (Wade, Bosh), Cavs the second time (Love), or the Lakers (Davis). The Bulls drafted Pippen and that was basically the extent of the help Jordan needed for his 6 championships in 8 seasons

 

[Jacksonbobson]

He’s already the GOAT, imo

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Jordan led the league in scoring in all three of his seasons after his comeback from baseball, and won MVP twice.

Best player = the one who scores the most points is some pretty rudimentary analysis. There's always a spot on first take though. Jordan led the league in scoring but also led in field goal attempts. His shooting efficiency fell season over season, and was offering less in other aspects of basketball.

Olajuwon was probably still better in 96 as he was a much more impactful defender, and Shaq was certainly a more dominant player in Jordan's final season with the Bulls, where the media handed him an MVP as a retirement gift.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

He needed Bosh and Wade to in Miami, he needed Kyrie and Love in Cleveland, and needed AD in LA to become contenders overnight.

So who was better than Jordan when he came back to the Bulls and won championships 4,5, and 6?

Kevin Love scored 14 points on 38% shooting and was a terrible defender when Lebron won the championship.

Lebron also made the finals with the Cavs once without Irving, and once without Love. The Cavs were 3-24 in those 4 seasons when Lebron didn't play. Sure looks like those two were carrying him.

On the other hand, the Bulls won 2 whole fewer games after Jordan retired to play baseball. Sure looks like he had no help.

 

[kanuck87]

Best player = the one who scores the most points is some pretty rudimentary analysis. There's always a spot on first take though. Jordan led the league in scoring but also led in field goal attempts. His shooting efficiency fell season over season, and was offering less in other aspects of basketball.

Olajuwon was probably still better in 96 as he was a much more impactful defender, and Shaq was certainly a more dominant player in Jordan's final season with the Bulls, where the media handed him an MVP as a retirement gift.

Jordan shot close to 50% in the first two full seasons of his comeback, including 42% and 37% from the 3-point line. Where's the inefficiency in that?

Jordan was also on the NBA All-defensive first team in those three seasons and his teams won the NBA championships. How much more proof do you need?

 

[Stylizer1]

There's no debate. Jordan willed the Bulls to 6 championships in 8 seasons against many talented teams, some deeper than the Bulls, but Jordan was always the difference-maker. As good as LeBron is, he always needed help, whether it was with the Heat (Wade, Bosh), Cavs the second time (Love), or the Lakers (Davis). The Bulls drafted Pippen and that was basically the extent of the help Jordan needed for his 6 championships in 8 seasons

and won 2 three peats with 2 totally different teams with the exception of Pippen.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Jordan shot close to 50% in the first two full seasons of his comeback, including 42% and 37% from the 3-point line. Where's the inefficiency in that?

Jordan was also on the NBA All-defensive first team in those three seasons and his teams won the NBA championships. How much more proof do you need?

You know they moved in the 3-point line for those seasons, right? Helps to know your history. And it's not that Jordan wasn't efficient, he just wasn't the same player that he was a few years prior, where he was far and away the best SG ever. He was more in the pack of best players, and there were centers who had a bigger impact, given their inherent advantages in defense and rebounding without the ball that someone of Jordan's height can't match.

And yes, Jordan was always an excellent defender. It also helps when you have two defenders who are even better on your team, like he did for the Bulls second three-peat.

 

[Stylizer1]

Kevin Love scored 14 points on 38% shooting and was a terrible defender when Lebron won the championship.

Lebron also made the finals with the Cavs once without Irving, and once without Love. The Cavs were 3-24 in those 4 seasons when Lebron didn't play. Sure looks like those two were carrying him.

On the other hand, the Bulls won 2 whole fewer games after Jordan retired to play baseball. Sure looks like he had no help.

Lebron is a ball hog?

Why did Lebron lose so many finals? He lost to better teams. For Jordan's 6 he was the best player in the league on the better team. Lebron lost to GS 3 out of 4 because they were a better team. Kevin Love's points and rebounds went down playing with Lebron as did Bosh's. LeBron's one of those players that never had to change their style of play like Iverson or McGrady because they were so good, but it didn't lead to championships. In Lebron' case it did, just not as many as he maybe should have won.

 

[kanuck87]

You know they moved in the 3-point line for those seasons, right? Helps to know your history. And it's not that Jordan wasn't efficient, he just wasn't the same player that he was a few years prior, where he was far and away the best SG ever. He was more in the pack of best players, and there were centers who had a bigger impact, given their inherent advantages in defense and rebounding without the ball that someone of Jordan's height can't match.

And yes, Jordan was always an excellent defender. It also helps when you have two defenders who are even better on your team, like he did for the Bulls second three-peat.

I don't care how far back or how close the three-point line was. Jordan was an above-average 3-point shooter in those seasons and he was a way above average shooter, period. There's literally no other guard in those three seasons that shot the ball as well as Jordan did while also scoring that many points. Look at any guard that scored over 20 ppg in those seasons.

So in Jordan's three seasons during his first comeback, let's see what he did:
- 3x scoring champion
- 3x All NBA defensive first team
- 2 MVPs
- 3 championships
- 3 NBA Finals MVP

But yeah in your mind he still wasn't the best player during that time. Ok

If Shaq and Olajuwon were so much better than MJ, why didn't either win a championship in that time? If he was just simply among the group of the best players, surely a team with a dominant Shaq or Olajuwon would have won one.

 

[Stylizer1]

You know they moved in the 3-point line for those seasons, right? Helps to know your history. And it's not that Jordan wasn't efficient, he just wasn't the same player that he was a few years prior, where he was far and away the best SG ever. He was more in the pack of best players, and there were centers who had a bigger impact, given their inherent advantages in defense and rebounding without the ball that someone of Jordan's height can't match.

And yes, Jordan was always an excellent defender. It also helps when you have two defenders who are even better on your team, like he did for the Bulls second three-peat.

Who exactly was better than Jordan?

He wasn't the best defender in his early to mid 30's, news flash, but he was still tops in the league every year.

At the end of the day there may have been players more valuable to their teams but they didn't ultimately win the title so they weren't good enough.

 

[Stylizer1]

Best player = the one who scores the most points is some pretty rudimentary analysis. There's always a spot on first take though. Jordan led the league in scoring but also led in field goal attempts. His shooting efficiency fell season over season, and was offering less in other aspects of basketball.

Olajuwon was probably still better in 96 as he was a much more impactful defender, and Shaq was certainly a more dominant player in Jordan's final season with the Bulls, where the media handed him an MVP as a retirement gift.

Jordan controlled the game and always had the ball at the end of the game. Jordan is considered one of the greatest mid range shooters of all time. Not to mention how many of those shots where taken being double and triple teamed.



How many players have won scoring championships and titles in the same year?