Post-Game Talk: Leafs win 4-1 (again) thanks to our new superstar... Tyler Ennis?

[zeke]

based on 1 game, it's Johnsson's spot that Ennis would be taking, not Nylander's or Leivo's.

 

[Morgs]

He scored 2 goals.
This is the game you wish to demonstrate he is trash in?
This is the game that proves this guy isn't worthy?
This is the game that proves that the Leafs should buckle to the omnipotent Willy Nylander because it unequivocally proves that the leafs can't live without him?

Guy was trash all game long, losing the puck, making poor passes. He made a nice play on Matthews goal. Stole the puck and tried stuffing it in once. Other than that? He got a pass in the slot from the other team, and marleau fed him for an empty net goal.

I get that points make everything else disappear in some peoples eyes (cough Marner >>> Nylander people), but I personally don't see the guy getting fed by the other team in the slot all season or on the ice with an empty net.

 

[ACC1224]

I was pointing out that yesterday showed zero proof that the leafs need him. You could hang on the body of proof of past performances but by sitting, he accomplished nothing that wasn't already known except that there are players that continuing to get better. He does not get an "I told you so" moment in the least.

I'm sure both sides realize that pre-season results are pretty meaningless.
He will get left behind though if he misses all camp.
That, IMO should be the main concern on both sides.

 

[Leafsman]

Was so impressed with Sandin and Liljegren. They looked like NHLers out there. They were calm under pressure, played very well defensively, and were very confident and effective in the offensive end. I am excited to see what they do late in preseason against more complete teams. I really hope Babcock gives them some solid chances.

Lindholm looked really good. I was very happy with his play on both sides of the puck. Johnsson and Kappy looked a little off but I could care less as it is early in the preseason and they will have plenty of time to get going.

I liked the Goat's game as he looked to regain his skating and was actually quite involved physically. Lindhol likely comes out on top though as he looked like a much more complete player and I can see him meshing well with Johnsson/Kappy.

Rosen was great, had a few pre-season blunders but looked great at times and I thought did very well on the PP. His play reminded me off his play during the Marlies playoffs and it looks like that play could translate to the NHL.

Liked Zaitsev's play. He looks to be regaining his confidence. I'm hoping he picks it up a bit and can take a spot alongside Reilly.

I liked Ennis's game. I thought he played well. He did look a little lost but it is a big ask to have him just step on to a line with Matthews/Marleau and become a top line winger. That goal was a beaut and he has quite a shot.

Anderson looked in full form, very happy with him and I hope he brings it into regular season and gets over his past starts. Pickard was hard to evaluate as he really wasn't overly tested.

I thought all the Marlies played quite well. Bracco has great vision, just has to stay out of the box. Brooks looks like a real player and a great prospect.

Marleau and Matthews didn't look to be at their best I thought. They were not as involved as I thought they would be but could care less as it is their first preseason game.

Marincin - 'nuff said.

 

[ACC1224]

Look at the GDT about a page or two before he scored.

I think his overall game was "fine", but without the goals I probably wouldn't agree with that.

Got it, no thanks.

 

[Morgs]

I was turning it around. People were using a meaningless preseason game to prove that Ennis was inadequate.

Nobody cares that he was "inadequate". People care when you're going against someone saying 'we clearly need Nylander' because Ennis isn't good enough.

 

[Notsince67]

Nobody cares that he was "inadequate". People care when you're going against someone saying 'we clearly need Nylander' because Ennis isn't good enough.

Ennis was good enough last night. Pointing to the game as evidence that he wasn't is just bull

 

[ACC1224]

Nobody cares that he was "inadequate". People care when you're going against someone saying 'we clearly need Nylander' because Ennis isn't good enough.

I don't think anyone believes Ennis is going to be an adequate replacement for Nylander.
Someone had to dress there last night, he was an easy choice.

 

[ottomaddox]

it doesn't get any more Donald Trump than sports radio.

Sports radio is informative.

You have people reporting on the game that watch it rink side, they speak to players / coaches / GMs, and form an opinion. Sometimes they lean on former GMs, scouts, and players for their analysis.

You certainly need to inform yourself (go see a game and decide for yourself if Gardiner makes mistakes, or if JVR is disinterested in defending, etc.), and perhaps listen to the opinion of other radio personalities. The nice thing is you have a spectrum to choose from (Stellek, Kypreos, Bowen, etc.), and perhaps a leaf fan can choose for themselves.

But sports radio is not all shock, entertainment, attempting to evoke emotional responses from fans.

 

[zeke]

Sports radio is informative.

You have people reporting on the game that watch it rink side, they speak to players / coaches / GMs, and form an opinion. Sometimes they lean on former GMs, scouts, and players for their analysis.

You certainly need to inform yourself (go see a game and decide for yourself if Gardiner makes mistakes, or if JVR is disinterested in defending, etc.), and perhaps listen to the opinion of other radio personalities. The nice thing is you have a spectrum to choose from (Stellek, Kypreos, Bowen, etc.), and perhaps a leaf fan can choose for themselves.

But sports radio is not all shock, entertainment, attempting to evoke emotional responses from fans.

it really is.

on the whole, you will know more about hockey by avoiding sports radio.

 

[Morgs]

I don't think anyone believes Ennis is going to be an adequate replacement for Nylander.
Someone had to dress there last night, he was an easy choice.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. What I disagree with is someone thinking 'We're good enough to not need Nylander'.

If Ennis looked like a good enough fill in, I'd be more than happy to say so. He didn't.

 

[Buds17]

based on 1 game, it's Johnsson's spot that Ennis would be taking, not Nylander's or Leivo's.

As the team continues to improve and contend, I guess anything could happen. Can't see them risking Johnsson to waivers though, or him being a healthy scratch to kick off the season. Perhaps he starts on the fourth line. Again, I'm hoping Nylander starts the season. If not, there's potentially room for all three (Johnsson, Leivo, Ennis) in the top 12.

 

[Sypher04]

1) The season we finished last WITHOUT Kessel we had 69 points. The season before WITH Kessel we had 68 points. If the tank is on you can lose on purpose with anyone.

2) The pick traded to get Anderson was pick 30. The Leafs also had pick 31. I'm sure that one spot wouldn't have killed the deal.

3) Kessel was traded at his lowest possible value. Why not give Babcock a chance to turn him around?

4) The Kessel deal was a disaster but possibly the worst part of it is the $1.2 retention for four more years as we are going to need every bit of cap we can get.

5) The Leafs arguably gave the Pens two cups.

Who would you rather have Kessel or Marleau?

1) That is a ridiculously simplistic view of things. The season without Kessel we played a very steady workman-like game and had no standout scorers. Kessel would have made a huge difference with another 30+ goals which is why it was imperative to move him before the season began.

2) One spot wouldn't have killed the deal but the lack of other picks there might have made the Leafs less inclined to make the deal. Especially when you consider they had just told everyone they're rebuilding the team. Having several picks is key. Trading away the 1st was still good optically because it was an extra pick, not their own.

3) Agreed, he was traded at his lowest, but Kessel's lack of value wasn't really tied to his play. Sure as a player he has deficiencies but it was more about the negativity surrounding him, the team core, the media relationship he had. The way he was painted within the media he often fought with cast a horrible view on him around the league. Kessel had more points in Toronto in his final year than he did in his first year in Pittsburgh.

4) I'm no fan of the retention but the situation is this:
- Kessel had a limited NTC which negated 20 teams
- of those, only one single team was in on Kessel, Pittsburgh, and their cap is problematic. You do what you need to do to change the culture, prepare for the future and move on.
- Everyone in hockey knew we wanted to get rid of him, killing our leverage in a potential deal
- True or not, several media outlets reported Babcock indicated when he signed to be coach that Kessel is not a player he wanted.
- The media articles attacking Phil relentlessly for probably 2+ years at the time did us no favours

5) What the Penguins went on to do with Kessel is completely immaterial to whether the trade was good for us.

I firmly believe removing Kessel was a necessary step to getting us on the right track. It played a direct hand in our lack of scoring ability the following season which lead us to us finish lower than we likely would have and gave us the opportunity to draft Matthews. The 1st we got allowed us to move a 1st in the Andersen deal and still have the #31 to select another prospect at a key time in trying to stock the cupboard. We also got Kasperi Kapanen who is being underrated imo because he typically plays 4th line type roles instead of scoring roles, or because he didn't look amazing in his first preseason game coming back from the offseason. We also got a 3rd round pick as well as Spaling who we eventually traded with Polak for two 2nd rounders. All I'm saying is there's a lot of moving parts and I think ultimately no one can be upset with how that trade has turned out for us.

 

[leburn98]

Love the Ennis talk. So much fascination and debate over a guy that was signed as a depth forward on a 1 year deal for a paltry $650K. The way some are over analyzing a single preseason performance are making it sound like we signed this guy to Tavares money.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

So much fascination and debate over a guy that was signed as a depth forward on a 1 year deal for a paltry $650K. The way some are over analyzing a single preseason performance are making it sound like we signed this guy to Tavares money.

he is making the same base salary as Tavares this season actually

 

[RoadWarrior]

Was so impressed with Sandin and Liljegren. They looked like NHLers out there. They were calm under pressure, played very well defensively, and were very confident and effective in the offensive end. I am excited to see what they do late in preseason against more complete teams. I really hope Babcock gives them some solid chances.

Lindholm looked really good. I was very happy with his play on both sides of the puck. Johnsson and Kappy looked a little off but I could care less as it is early in the preseason and they will have plenty of time to get going.

I liked the Goat's game as he looked to regain his skating and was actually quite involved physically. Lindhol likely comes out on top though as he looked like a much more complete player and I can see him meshing well with Johnsson/Kappy.

Rosen was great, had a few pre-season blunders but looked great at times and I thought did very well on the PP. His play reminded me off his play during the Marlies playoffs and it looks like that play could translate to the NHL.

Liked Zaitsev's play. He looks to be regaining his confidence. I'm hoping he picks it up a bit and can take a spot alongside Reilly.

I liked Ennis's game. I thought he played well. He did look a little lost but it is a big ask to have him just step on to a line with Matthews/Marleau and become a top line winger. That goal was a beaut and he has quite a shot.

Anderson looked in full form, very happy with him and I hope he brings it into regular season and gets over his past starts. Pickard was hard to evaluate as he really wasn't overly tested.

I thought all the Marlies played quite well. Bracco has great vision, just has to stay out of the box. Brooks looks like a real player and a great prospect.

Marleau and Matthews didn't look to be at their best I thought. They were not as involved as I thought they would be but could care less as it is their first preseason game.

Marincin - 'nuff said.

I’d still put Borgman slightly ahead of Rosen but not by much. Too close to call at this point.

Brooks is a classic tweener. Very smart industrious player who lacks the athleticism to play in the top 6 in the nhl. Long term he could wind up on a fourth line if he improves his skating.

Ennis actually generated a few chances and showed flashes but he lost more than his share of puck battles and struggled in the cycle game. Not a long term solution but he has enough raw skill to fit in the top 6 in a pinch.

Ozhiganov > Carrick at this stage.

Bracco is in the same boat as Ennis. His game has deficiencies (checking anyone?) but he can generate offense and fill in for skilled players on a short term basis.

Lindholm > Gauthier and Jooris and it’s not close. In fact with his superior skating Lindholm might even be able to move up in the lineup.

Sandin and Liljegren look like NHL players in 2019. Terrific skating and puck movement. Sandin’s hockey IQ is off the charts.

 

[ottomaddox]

Better how? It's preseason.

He was awesome in the playoffs and it's not his fault the team buries him in place of trash like Komarov, Martin and Moore. Marner also looked like trash on the 4th line.

Put him on with Kadri and Johnsson and see how he does.

It's not trolling, it's concern trolling.

Kessel is an overrated soft winger who is being carried by two generational centers, he was not worth much more than we got, I also LOVE how you get to ignore the ACTUAL return for him in the way of ignoring that we lose out on the number 1 pick and Andersen.

Sorry that in the real world having Kessel=ending up with Kessel and a meh to not even close to Matthews prospect whereas without him we end up with Kapanen, Andersen and Matthews. Good management finds ways to win trades by using holistic reasons for making the trade and not just "well IMMEDIATE RETURN v WHAT WE TRADED."

Stop. This was not a 3 way deal. You're only speaking of fortunes and good luck (Andersen and Matthews didn't come in the deal). "Lose out on". Tor had to become incredibly lucky to land Matthews and Andersen. The luck they had wasn't included in the deal for Kessel.

 

[666]

1) That is a ridiculously simplistic view of things. The season without Kessel we played a very steady workman-like game and had no standout scorers. Kessel would have made a huge difference with another 30+ goals which is why it was imperative to move him before the season began.

2) One spot wouldn't have killed the deal but the lack of other picks there might have made the Leafs less inclined to make the deal. Especially when you consider they had just told everyone they're rebuilding the team. Having several picks is key. Trading away the 1st was still good optically because it was an extra pick, not their own.

3) Agreed, he was traded at his lowest, but Kessel's lack of value wasn't really tied to his play. Sure as a player he has deficiencies but it was more about the negativity surrounding him, the team core, the media relationship he had. The way he was painted within the media he often fought with cast a horrible view on him around the league. Kessel had more points in Toronto in his final year than he did in his first year in Pittsburgh.

4) I'm no fan of the retention but the situation is this:
- Kessel had a limited NTC which negated 20 teams
- of those, only one single team was in on Kessel, Pittsburgh, and their cap is problematic. You do what you need to do to change the culture, prepare for the future and move on.
- Everyone in hockey knew we wanted to get rid of him, killing our leverage in a potential deal
- True or not, several media outlets reported Babcock indicated when he signed to be coach that Kessel is not a player he wanted.
- The media articles attacking Phil relentlessly for probably 2+ years at the time did us no favours

5) What the Penguins went on to do with Kessel is completely immaterial to whether the trade was good for us.

I firmly believe removing Kessel was a necessary step to getting us on the right track. It played a direct hand in our lack of scoring ability the following season which lead us to us finish lower than we likely would have and gave us the opportunity to draft Matthews. The 1st we got allowed us to move a 1st in the Andersen deal and still have the #31 to select another prospect at a key time in trying to stock the cupboard. We also got Kasperi Kapanen who is being underrated imo because he typically plays 4th line type roles instead of scoring roles, or because he didn't look amazing in his first preseason game coming back from the offseason. We also got a 3rd round pick as well as Spaling who we eventually traded with Polak for two 2nd rounders. All I'm saying is there's a lot of moving parts and I think ultimately no one can be upset with how that trade has turned out for us.

Thanks for the detailed reply.

We'll never know how we might have done with Kessel and if we would have still been able to acquire Matthews and Anderson or not but I believe we would be better off.

It doesn't matter about the media or Babcock's wishes or the culture. Those things ALWAYS get fixed with winning. Those things certainly don't seem to be a problem in Pittsburgh.

Also it does matter that we traded him into the conference because it makes it harder for us to win now.

If we still had him, we'd have a vet in his prime, probably instead of Marleau. We'd also be able to trade him now at his peak or Nylander for valuable assets.

This is a business and it was a horrible business decision. We traded a guy who just got 92 points for practically nothing and we're still paying for him.

But it's all water under the bridge now anyway.

 

[GodEmperor]

Stop. This was not a 3 way deal. You're only speaking of fortunes and good luck (Andersen and Matthews didn't come in the deal). "Lose out on". Tor had to become incredibly lucky to land Matthews and Andersen. The luck they had wasn't included in the deal for Kessel.

It's not fortune or good luck if we look at the people orchestrating these deals (competent individuals who have done nothing but great moves since), I'm sorry you want to ignore the consequences of the trade or think that these are mindless drones without a plan.

I would suggest looking into consequentialism and getting yourself acquainted with it.

Kessel is an overrated winger and we were better off in the long run without him, he will never be a centerpiece.

 

[ACC1224]

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. What I disagree with is someone thinking 'We're good enough to not need Nylander'.

If Ennis looked like a good enough fill in, I'd be more than happy to say so. He didn't.

Got it. I must have missed those comments or just ignored them. I certainly wouldn't give them much thought.

 

[ACC1224]

Tickets in Buffalo start at $9 Saturday night. Tempting.....I'd go for sure if Tuesdays lineup were playing.

Anyone have an idea when they'll announce tomorrows lineup?

 

[Notsince67]

Love the Ennis talk. So much fascination and debate over a guy that was signed as a depth forward on a 1 year deal for a paltry $650K. The way some are over analyzing a single preseason performance are making it sound like we signed this guy to Tavares money.

Love the fact that people imply Ennis' performance wasn't adequate with 2 goals. I suppose he needed 4 to pass the test.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Tickets in Buffalo start at $9 Saturday night. Tempting.....I'd go for sure if Tuesdays lineup were playing.

Anyone have an idea when they'll announce tomorrows lineup?

hopefully soon, they're practicing now


looks like it is tuesday's defensive lineup, only with Durzi replacing Dermott

 

[ACC1224]

hopefully soon, they're practicing now


looks like it is tuesday's defensive lineup, only with Durzi replacing Dermott

Thanks.

 

[Leafsman]

I’d still put Borgman slightly ahead of Rosen but not by much. Too close to call at this point.

Brooks is a classic tweener. Very smart industrious player who lacks the athleticism to play in the top 6 in the nhl. Long term he could wind up on a fourth line if he improves his skating.

Ennis actually generated a few chances and showed flashes but he lost more than his share of puck battles and struggled in the cycle game. Not a long term solution but he has enough raw skill to fit in the top 6 in a pinch.

Ozhiganov > Carrick at this stage.

Bracco is in the same boat as Ennis. His game has deficiencies (checking anyone?) but he can generate offense and fill in for skilled players on a short term basis.

Lindholm > Gauthier and Jooris and it’s not close. In fact with his superior skating Lindholm might even be able to move up in the lineup.

Sandin and Liljegren look like NHL players in 2019. Terrific skating and puck movement. Sandin’s hockey IQ is off the charts.

I didn't think Marleau and Matthews looked fully engaged. They picked it up in the 2nd but I don't feel they were giving 100%. It's more and observation than a criticism as it's the first preseason game. Though I do think this reflects on Ennis as he would look much better if Matthews and Marleau played a little better.