Pre-Game Talk: Leafs vs Canadiens | Sat. March 1st, 2014 | 7pm EST, CBC

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Pi

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Bernier is blunt. He's not wrong...if we don't get better defensively, we're not going very far. I think it's hard for any team to suddenly get better defensively when they haven't been good for sixty games.

We're likely going to be the worst defensive team in the playoffs if we make it. I just hope our offense and Bernier can bail us out a few times and get us to the second round.
 

Suntouchable13

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Bernier is blunt. He's not wrong...if we don't get better defensively, we're not going very far. I think it's hard for any team to suddenly get better defensively when they haven't been good for sixty games.

We're likely going to be the worst defensive team in the playoffs if we make it. I just hope our offense and Bernier can bail us out a few times and get us to the second round.

We should make it barring a huge collapse like the one we had in 2012. A huge collapse wouldn't be a good sign for the future of this team. If we don't make it, then there should be a huge worry about this team. Because many of the pieces are locked up long term. People talk about if we don't make it like it would be no big deal and everything should be fine. We should say "when we make it" not "if".
 

Pi

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We should make it barring a huge collapse like the one we had in 2012. A huge collapse wouldn't be a good sign for the future of this team. If we don't make it, then there should be a huge worry about this team. Because many of the pieces are locked up long term.

It's not a guarantee. We give up 3 goals a game, if Kessel and JvR slump, we're going downhill no matter how good Bernier can play.

Even Price gave up 4 goals for 5 straight games and had ugly numbers for about 10 games when the habs slumped.

If Bernier has that kind of stretch in these last 20 games, we're going to miss the playoffs.

No team that gives up 3 goals a game does anything in the playoffs. 1st round fodder team.

We need to upgrade our defense badly. Gardiner and Franson piss me off. So many terrible mistakes...they each make more mistakes in a game than Team Canada did in 7 games.
 

therealkoho

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The Leafs need to get the jump on the Canadiens out of the gate and establish a forecheck particularly on Markov/Subban pairing they also need to punish Pacioretty everytime he's in the Leafs zone and not allow him to roam behind the net to the half-wall near the dot. they need to stay on this guy at all times punishing him and make his TOI miserable. Getting Subban and Pacioretty to lose their collective cools wil upset any rythym to the Habs getting out of their zone or creating in ours

This is a game where the 2 line absolutely needs to perform, hopefully Clarkson and Lupes can create some down low problems on the cycle and create some scoring opportunities for Kadri in close other then just off the rush. Theyll get a lot of opportunity for TOI if they can establish puck control in the Montreal end. Eventually Therrien will be forced to play Subban and Markov against them and allow Bozaks line time against the lesser lights


if they do that they win going away in regulation, every point is important but even more important is not allowing the opposition any
 

Mess

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Jonas Siegel ‏@jonasTSN1050 1m
Asked if the Leafs could go deep in the playoffs without improving defensively Jonathan Bernier responded, "I personally don't think so..."

Bernier is rightfully getting frustrated by the porous team defense in front of him.. Apparently not everything is fine.

He likely watched Team Canada and supports the "defense wins championships" belief.

Props to Bernier for calling out his teammates.
 

Daisy Jane

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Pi - which makes me wonder when the parachute is going to be cut from Gardiner. I mean there's the "he can grow into it." (because he's what? 23?) vs he's just not that Hockey Smart. And if everyone keeps questioning it now sooner or later the value we can get from him will completely fall out and we're hooped.

I hate playing the "i'd trade x for y" because I suck at it.
Franson - i hope he's gone soon too.

then for the forwards, I would just like them to know that it is a-ok to come back to the blue line.
 

Peasy

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JVR and Franson are almost the same height, yet JVR can skate 4 times faster than Franson... When Franson skates it honestly looks like hes walking out there.
 

CerebralDevil

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Pi - which makes me wonder when the parachute is going to be cut from Gardiner. I mean there's the "he can grow into it." (because he's what? 23?) vs he's just not that Hockey Smart. And if everyone keeps questioning it now sooner or later the value we can get from him will completely fall out and we're hooped.

I hate playing the "i'd trade x for y" because I suck at it.
Franson - i hope he's gone soon too.

then for the forwards, I would just like them to know that it is a-ok to come back to the blue line.

Yep I agree Franson and Gards kill this team at the moment. If anything Nonis needs to address this
 

Daisy Jane

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Bernier is rightfully getting frustrated by the porous team defense in front of him.. Apparently not everything is fine.

He likely watched Team Canada and supports the "defense wins championships" belief.

Props to Bernier for calling out his teammates.

He didn't call them out. He's been saying this since October. AS has Randy. quite frankly, the entire team has been saying it. I don't know why it doesn't sink in more [and truthfully, I feel a good chunk of it is personnel and mindsets, so this summer it will be interesting to see who we get to help insulate the the younger guys more, and what training camp is].

It would be nice if we can go through, I don't know - one thread without bringing up Team Canada as if it was this magical revelation that "Oh, look, y'all! Defense! It wins you a Championship!" Everyone knows this. Name a sport, and no one goes "Oh, Offense trumps Defense in Championship Play!"
 

Daisy Jane

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JVR and Franson are almost the same height, yet JVR can skate 4 times faster than Franson... When Franson skates it honestly looks like hes walking out there.

Barb Lessons?
(JVR took full advantage of Barb this summer).
 

Pi

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I would consider scratching Franson and Gardiner and playing two rookies from the AhL an upgrade. That's how bad it has become.

I like Gardiner a lot but I am not seeing him utilize his talent...he can skate like the wind but keeps twirling around in his own zone and make dumb soft passes that get intercepted for breakaways.
 

Mess

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He didn't call them out. He's been saying this since October. AS has Randy. quite frankly, the entire team has been saying it. I don't know why it doesn't sink in more [and truthfully, I feel a good chunk of it is personnel and mindsets, so this summer it will be interesting to see who we get to help insulate the the younger guys more, and what training camp is].

It would be nice if we can go through, I don't know - one thread without bringing up Team Canada as if it was this magical revelation that "Oh, look, y'all! Defense! It wins you a Championship!" Everyone knows this. Name a sport, and no one goes "Oh, Offense trumps Defense in Championship Play!"

Leafs are in the bottom 5 in goals against and Bernier has a top 5 sv% in the NHL.

This can mean only 1 thing, that Bernier is not the problem and the rest of the team in front of him is. Bernier can't keep masking the problem.

Never mind going deep in the playoffs the Leafs would be fortunate to even make the playoffs playing as poorly as they do without the puck. The only saving grace to Leafs season to date is 9 SO wins and the best record in the NHL. There is no such thing as shootouts in the playoffs and so game over.

Not sure how Nonis and Carlyle are going to fix this as it hasn't worked all year with the current player personnel.
 

Parkdale

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That's the best non-Bolland line up we could possibly ice. But i'm sure Bodie or Smith or both will be replaced by McLaren and Orr.

Bodie, Gleason, Clarkson could all fight if needed.

With his history of concussions, I'd rather not see Gleason fight. The captain should take the lead in any physical push-back from the D.
 

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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Actually, the shot count was 35-22, so you're already off to a bad start. Despite this, it was neck and neck up until halfway through the 3rd period.

Funny how you reference game maps THIS time. I've never seen YOU use it before, but I have seen them used plenty of times. And more often than not this season, Leafs are on the winning end of the "prime scoring chances" race.

This of course trusts ESPN, the laughing stock of the hockey world, to accurately place every shot and goal (which even at first glance doesn't look right based on where the goals were scored), and that each "point blank scoring chance" comes with an equal chance to score. This also trusts the NYI stat guy, the second laughing stock of the hockey world, to accurately record shots in the first place.

It seems curious that nearly all of the in-close shots that the NYI had came in the 3rd period (like, 11), when those of us that watched the game know this isn't true (NYI stat guy probably recorded a shot for every whack at Bernier while he had the puck LOL), and when the Leafs still outscored the NYI 3-2 in that period.

But assuming we are going with trusting these people, I am willing to admit that while the goals were still incredibly flukey and most of those in-close chances were not "prime scoring chances" except in distance to the net, and they barely got any until the 3rd period, they got more close-up chances (though not 3:1 lmao) than I gave them credit for.

This is of course only under the condition that you agree to trusting these shot maps, and therefore admit that Leafs have outplayed their opponent on a regular basis this season.

I also think that this game proves that even Bernier is affected by inexperience, so there goes that other theory of yours.

If the shot maps are to be trusted then they actually indicate the opposite. But I love the way you post reams of data when any can be found to support your claims, but when the data doesnt support you dismiss it as unreliable or meaningless.

But yeah, if you think the gamecast pics support your contention that the Leafs have been outplaying the opposition I dont know what to say. Keep saying that 2 plus 2 equals 5 long enough and you will start to believe I guess. :laugh:

Bernier's right. We may get to the second round, but without improving our defense, we won't go further.

Pretty pumped Bob Cole is announcing the game tonight. Should make a great atmosphere.

Peter Holland back in? Nice!

James van Reimsdyk - Tyler Bozak - Phil Kessel
Joffery Lupul - Nazem Kadri - David Clarkson
Mason Raymond - Peter Holland - Nikolai Kulemin
Troy Bodie - Jay McClement - Trevor Smith

Carl Gunnersson - Dion Phaneuf
Tim Gleason - Morgan Rielly
Jake Gardiner - Cody Franson

Jon Bernier

Assuming these are the lines for tonight

Of course hes right. Awesome that he is coming out and saying it!

Bernier is blunt. He's not wrong...if we don't get better defensively, we're not going very far. I think it's hard for any team to suddenly get better defensively when they haven't been good for sixty games.

We're likely going to be the worst defensive team in the playoffs if we make it. I just hope our offense and Bernier can bail us out a few times and get us to the second round.

Agree with every work of this. Its hard to just flip a switch and start playing responsibly. And consistency is absent here.

We should make it barring a huge collapse like the one we had in 2012. A huge collapse wouldn't be a good sign for the future of this team. If we don't make it, then there should be a huge worry about this team. Because many of the pieces are locked up long term. People talk about if we don't make it like it would be no big deal and everything should be fine. We should say "when we make it" not "if".

70% to make sounds about right. Wouldnt take a huge collapse at all to miss, just a little slump is all.

Leafs are in the bottom 5 in goals against and Bernier has a top 5 sv% in the NHL.

This can mean only 1 thing, that Bernier is not the problem and the rest of the team in front of him is. Bernier can't keep masking the problem.

Never mind going deep in the playoffs the Leafs would be fortunate to even make the playoffs playing as poorly as they do without the puck. The only saving grace to Leafs season to date is 9 SO wins and the best record in the NHL. There is no such thing as shootouts in the playoffs and so game over.

Not sure how Nonis and Carlyle are going to fix this as it hasn't worked all year with the current player personnel.

This has been clear to me from the start. The first 10 games we were winning but playing like crap. Same story all year.
 

Atomos2

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Honestly, at this point im ready to just give away gardiner and franson and call up percy and granberg. Im convinced they would do a considerably better and safer job despite the age difference.
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
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Leafs are in the bottom 5 in goals against and Bernier has a top 5 sv% in the NHL.

This can mean only 1 thing, that Bernier is not the problem and the rest of the team in front of him is. Bernier can't keep masking the problem.

Never mind going deep in the playoffs the Leafs would be fortunate to even make the playoffs playing as poorly as they do without the puck. The only saving grace to Leafs season to date is 9 SO wins and the best record in the NHL. There is no such thing as shootouts in the playoffs and so game over.

Not sure how Nonis and Carlyle are going to fix this as it hasn't worked all year with the current player personnel.

But did I say that Bernier was the problem? I'm acknowledging the fact that our defensive play is crap. I never once said that it wasn't - I've written about it countless times. it's both on the defensive side & the offensive side as well [which leads to the entire chicken and egg: are the defense so pissed off that the offense doesn't come up and help them sooner, or is the offense not wanting to trust the defense and they'd rather hang back.]. either way - it doesn't help that Franson, and Gardiner are brutal and make the stupidest decisions on the planet. Bar None. I give them credit when they do good stuff, but it doesn't negate that fact.

I also call boo on the 'only saving grace' is the Leafs 9 shootout wins. You don't fluke out 32 wins.Had we won on Thursday, we'd have the same exact record as LA, we've had the same record as LA for a good 2 months now [okay, am cheating, because we barely played in February] Last year we had very good defensive play, a great row , and we couldn't win a shootout if you had a gun to the team's head. This year, we've got a mediocre row, crap defense, and now it's 'our only saving grace." because you know - why not.

I am saying this again:
at the beginning of the season everyone kept saying the Leafs would be 4th-5th in the Atlantic, battling for a wild card spot. and wow. look. 21 games in March, look where we are. tied for 3rd in the Atlantic (4th due to games played), battling for a wild card spot. Even if we had stellar defense - I don't know if we'd be any different in the standings. The team is young. the end. I would be more concerned if this was say... New Jersey, or the Kings with their defense or whatever. We've got

Phaneuf & Gunnarson [stable for the most part]
Gleason and a 20 year old
Gardiner (23 & not smart) and Franson (someone who missed training camp and is hands down one of the slowest defenseman on our team)
Ranger (out of the league for 3-4 years)

THAT'S the back end and before Gleason it was Fraser and or Liles when he finally managed to draw in and it wasn't like he was a saviour. Unless we go all out and steal someone's young defenseman AND another vet - I'm telling you right now - our defense will probably cause us grey hairs next year, and the year before that. for another three years, we're probably going to live and die by our Offense and Goaltending, until Rielly grows into his own, our Leaflings [Percy, Granberg, MacWilliam and Finn - finally figured out who they all were] comes up and THEY know the game. or we get Dan Boyle [yes please!] or Robidas for vet support.

it can't be both ways. we can't go "oh - well we're not a cup contending team." on one hand and then go "well we can't do a deep playoff run, with our team!" with the other. It was freaking obvious for some that we weren't going on a deep playoff run this year, regardless of how wide open the East is. [now - because i'm ME - i believe we can, I've seen run-and-gun teams completely flip the switch. this could happen]

but it's like it's this huge surprise of 'oh well, we could be in trouble." when Bernier and Randy have been saying this for.ev.er. [And Nonis has been saying it since like November - but he's not going to do anything that takes away from the future. so just sit back, and enjoy the rollercoaster drama].
 

TheThrill81*

Guest
Leafs are in the bottom 5 in goals against and Bernier has a top 5 sv% in the NHL.

This can mean only 1 thing, that Bernier is not the problem and the rest of the team in front of him is. Bernier can't keep masking the problem.

Comparing a team stat to an individual stat? How convenient. Considering the number of shots the Leafs face, it would no doubt inflate Bernier's sv%. You should also include how many of those goals Bernier was in net for.
 
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