TSN Radio Leafs Lunch interviews Brendan Shanahan and Dave Nonis (April 14, 2014)

[Stephen]

I have no problem dumping Phaneuf cheap because getting a ton of cap relief is motivation enough. Sort of the Luongo situation the past couple of years. However, asset management should be exercised with greater care with everybody else.

 

[GalacticaActual]

leafs have been in no man's land for 50 years. and this years playoffs is a reminder of just how bottom feeding this franchise is. watched montreal last night and realized that even though they've been mediocre for a long time as well, they at least provide some excitement and make the playoffs every now and then. They have a decent team from season to season. The Leafs? 7 playoff games in 11 years. And we know how that rare treat ended. How bad is that, really? Some guys in here are 11 years older since the last time the leafs won a playoff series. Some guys have families and kids now. Thats a long, long time. We've had other "presidents" who came and went - Dryden for one - but then he left the position to go into politics instead - i don't know whether to laugh or cry. We just keep sitting on the sidelines and watch all these teams coming around full circle - during this 50 year drought we've seen teams like tampa bay suck, then win a cup, then suck, then be back in the race again this year. Teams like Anaheim sucked, then won a cup, then sucked, and are now competing again. Detroit keeps on winning. Pittsburgh. Chicago. On it goes. I was watching Tampa Bay last night and thought "hey, they're back in it again - I remember when they won that cup years ago".. well when they won the cup long time ago, the leafs sucked - and then when tampa bay disappeared for a while and became a bad team - the leafs still sucked - and now that tampa bay is back and competing again - the leafs still suck. All these teams have progressed over the years/decades. The Leafs? Suck. suck. suck. All the other teams are running laps around them. Other teams go into rebuilds, but then come alive again a few years later as they should- but the leafs just keep sucking and never ever surface. Tweak this and rebuild that it doesn't matter, the team is still just debris scattered everywhere. And to have this situation happen in one of the largest hockey markets on the planet is a great oxymoron to say the least, it's barely comprehensible. Something has been fundamantally wrong with the team's ownership over the decades and it's passed on from owner to owner. It never gets better. Not yet anyways.

Is Shanahan all of a sudden the savior here to turn around 50 years of comedy? Is he the new Cliff Fletcher of the 2010s? Don't know. Doubt it, with the way this franchise is being operated. He still has to report to "the board" like everyone else. And "the board" doesn't know if the Leafs are a hockey team or a curling team.. they're too busy watching their investments

My god this post was beautiful... Sums up all my feelings about the Leafs right now.

 

[YearsintheWilderness]

leafs have been in no man's land for 50 years. and this years playoffs is a reminder of just how bottom feeding this franchise is. watched montreal last night and realized that even though they've been mediocre for a long time as well, they at least provide some excitement and make the playoffs every now and then. They have a decent team from season to season. The Leafs? 7 playoff games in 11 years. And we know how that rare treat ended. How bad is that, really? Some guys in here are 11 years older since the last time the leafs won a playoff series. Some guys have families and kids now. Thats a long, long time. We've had other "presidents" who came and went - Dryden for one - but then he left the position to go into politics instead - i don't know whether to laugh or cry. We just keep sitting on the sidelines and watch all these teams coming around full circle - during this 50 year drought we've seen teams like tampa bay suck, then win a cup, then suck, then be back in the race again this year. Teams like Anaheim sucked, then won a cup, then sucked, and are now competing again. Detroit keeps on winning. Pittsburgh. Chicago. On it goes. I was watching Tampa Bay last night and thought "hey, they're back in it again - I remember when they won that cup years ago".. well when they won the cup long time ago, the leafs sucked - and then when tampa bay disappeared for a while and became a bad team - the leafs still sucked - and now that tampa bay is back and competing again - the leafs still suck. All these teams have progressed over the years/decades. The Leafs? Suck. suck. suck. All the other teams are running laps around them. Other teams go into rebuilds, but then come alive again a few years later as they should- but the leafs just keep sucking and never ever surface. Tweak this and rebuild that it doesn't matter, the team is still just debris scattered everywhere. And to have this situation happen in one of the largest hockey markets on the planet is a great oxymoron to say the least, it's barely comprehensible. Something has been fundamantally wrong with the team's ownership over the decades and it's passed on from owner to owner. It never gets better. Not yet anyways.

Is Shanahan all of a sudden the savior here to turn around 50 years of comedy? Is he the new Cliff Fletcher of the 2010s? Don't know. Doubt it, with the way this franchise is being operated. He still has to report to "the board" like everyone else. And "the board" doesn't know if the Leafs are a hockey team or a curling team.. they're too busy watching their investments

And...others have avoided the laws of aging?

 

[Daisy Jane]

And...others have avoided the laws of aging?

well I still look like I did almost a decade ago

 

[hfman]

I agree with hfman on most of his points about the decades of mediocrity of the Maple Leafs. Why are fans cynical and still stupid for following this team?

An analogy to the Maple Leafs fan situation is akin to being married. A person marries their love for better or worse and will always be loyal to their spouse no matter what. At some point in the marriage the other half becomes abusive or even violent to the point other people are saying why stay with your abusive spouse, why not leave then?!

If this abusive treatment by Maple Leafs management continues where fans are told one thing and the results show the opposite then you will see people divorcing themselves from the team. There will be generation of children born in Toronto that will NOT become Maple Leafs fans because quite frankly the team is awful. They will become Penguins fans because of Crosby, or Chicago fans because of Toews and the cup runs, etc.

In the 1980's I saw a lot of teenagers cheer on the Oilers or the Habs because they were winners and never looked back. Do you know how many people during the late 1980’s and early 1990’s in Toronto became Habs fans because they won the Stanley Cup?

I know of MANY people that are Habs fans because the Habs have a pedigree of wining for decades. Only in the 2000's have the Habs not won the cup, but that can change sooner rather than later.

Look around Toronto with all those Montreal Canadiens car flags flying in Toronto. It is PATHETIC. You would not see any Maple Leafs car flags flying in Montreal ever. That is how bad it is in Toronto when our rival team has fans in OUR city taunting us for this teams failures. Heck we even have our rival fans feel sorry for us on how bad these multiple managers have messed up the Maple Leafs.

You ask why stay loyal to the Maple Leafs? The team now more than ever needs to earn the loyalty back from Maple Leaf diehard fans soon or eventually even the abused fan will divorce themselves from the Toronto Maple Leafs. It's only a matter of time.



This team will never be Cup contenders not with Larry Tanenbaum still calling the shots and the dysfunctional Board of Directors. Look at all the General Managers, coaches and players that have come through the revolving door under Tanenbaum since 2003. It is mind boggling that this many people can get it wrong.

The only one constant in this mess with all these different people is Tanenbaum. The ownership got worse with two rival companies owning each piece of MLS&E. Shanahan is just another face to the dysfunction that is MLS&E.



As stated above, with Tanenbaum still the Chairman of the Board, not much will change. Shanahan still has to report to his bosses it's not like he will have full autonomy on decisions.

It's not that hard for people to sit down and close our mouths to wait for something to happen before going off the rails? It has been decades of fans being patient, sitting down, quietly giving their hard earned dollars over this time on ticket prices along with concessions that are the highest in the league.

The fans have been VERY patient with the Maple Leafs to the point that abusive regimes in other countries have been toppled after their citizens could not take decades of abuse from their country's authority.

Look around at all the protests and violence around the world where the citizens had enough and decided to make a better world for themselves. Why Maple Leafs fans have not held protests outside the doors of the Air Canada Centre and why fans continue to pay money to see this awful product is mind boggling.



Being a Maple Leafs fan is the definition of insanity, it's as if MLS&E has some hypnotic hold over the fan base to force them into paying for their mediocre product. Not only does the Maple Leafs have the audacity to force this fan base into icing this mediocre product for decades, MLS&E had the gull to hold this fan base hostage from allowing the NHL into having another team expand into the GTA.

The Maple Leafs have a monopoly for the GTA and the only way this changes if the NHL allows another team for fans to have choice into cheering for a team IN their city. Until then, Maple Leafs fans can only be cynical and pessimistic because there is no competition for the Maple Leafs to change their ways.

The Maple Leafs are literally holding the fans hostage if you want to cheer for a NHL hockey team within Toronto. The only other option is to divorce your allegiance and cheer for another team, which most loyal fans do not want to do, thus creating this hostage situation, cynicism and insanity among the loyal fan base.

this is excellent. great points in this post.

its true. Toronto hockey fans are held hostage. The Leafs are OUR hockey team, but they are being held back by a bunch of faceless, greedy corporations like Rogers and Bell. It's like our hockey team is locked up and the key thrown out. The team is neglected by ownership, and has been for 50 years. Its as if the fans need to find a way to free the team, and get it under the ownership of HOCKEY-MINDED individuals, NOT telephone and internet media companies or elementary school teachers. Unfortunately thats never going to happen. Not now. The days of hockey people running the team are long gone. I dont even know the last time they were owned by someone or a group that new a single thing about hockey. Stavro? Ballard? And even in those eras the Leafs were barely a blip on the radar.. the 92/93 years were about it... If you look to the far future, the next step will be for Bell and Rogers to sell their stakes and become trillionaire companies.. and the next owners who the Leafs are sold to will be millionaire companies looking to become the same... all while knowing nothing about hockey.

The future is NOT bright, no matter how anyone wants to spin it

the question remains. why, when and more importantly how will change occur?

 

[hockeywiz542]

Gare Joyce of Rogers Sportsnet compares Toronto Maple Leafs President Brendan Shanahan to Vancouver Canucks president Trevor Linden and Tampa Bay Lighning GM Steve Yzerman. However, Joyce thinks that Brendan Shanahan will manage the Toronto Maple Leafs by drawing upon his own experience as a professional NHL player and executive, as well as utilizing and seeking advice from his large network of contacts in the hockey world.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/comparing-shanahan-to-other-nhl-hires/

Shanahan played for six teams and 13 coaches. (We’ll count the two games with Paul Maurice in Hartford.) Suffice to say that Shanahan experienced many more varying franchise “cultures”—to borrow Tim Leiweke’s mot du jour—than did Yzerman. Shanahan knows how the culture of a championship team in Detroit differs from the culture of a train wreck teams like those in New Jersey and Hartford early in his career.

Shanahan would have also played with hundreds of teammates, probably a multiple of those who passed through the Wings organization during Yzerman’s tenure. That’s not saying that inside knowledge of these players counts as much on its own in assembling a roster—few would be kicking around these days. Nonetheless, Shanahan’s network as a player would be far bigger than Yzerman’s. Then factor in the players and execs he has worked with while heading up the NHL disciplinary department. When Yzerman stepped into his job in Tampa, he was doing business with people he was meeting for the first time. Shanahan knows them. If you don’t think that’s meaningful, then you’re assuming that the NHL is unlike absolutely any other business, sports or otherwise.

What’s more, Shanahan is by nature a wholly social animal. You’d have come away with a distinctly different impression at the presser introducing Shanahan as president. He handled every question as if it were wired with dynamite. On his introduction he opted to take a tack opposite to that of his good friend Brian Burke who boldly entered Leafs Nation, acted too quickly and was mocked for throughout tenure. For Shanahan that wasn’t local knowledge, just a lesson he picked up through his network.

 

[Faltorvo]

Gare Joyce of Rogers Sportsnet compares Toronto Maple Leafs President Brendan Shanahan to Vancouver Canucks president Trevor Linden and Tampa Bay Lighning GM Steve Yzerman. However, Joyce thinks that Brendan Shanahan will manage the Toronto Maple Leafs by drawing upon his own experience as a professional NHL player and executive, as well as utilizing and seeking advice from his large network of contacts in the hockey world.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/comparing-shanahan-to-other-nhl-hires/

another failed attempted by a journalistt.

one must figure out what is going on at the very top

what are the marching orders that ALL the underlings must attempt to adhere to or accomplish.

once you know the boards and then TLs mandate, then one can try and gauge what BSs strategy and measure scale of success will be.

 

[ACC1224]

Gare Joyce of Rogers Sportsnet compares Toronto Maple Leafs President Brendan Shanahan to Vancouver Canucks president Trevor Linden and Tampa Bay Lighning GM Steve Yzerman. However, Joyce thinks that Brendan Shanahan will manage the Toronto Maple Leafs by drawing upon his own experience as a professional NHL player and executive, as well as utilizing and seeking advice from his large network of contacts in the hockey world.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/comparing-shanahan-to-other-nhl-hires/

This is the exciting part for me. I liked how Shanahan played the game and I think he'll try and mold the Team in that image.

 

[Mess]

This is the exciting part for me. I liked how Shanahan played the game and I think he'll try and mold the Team in that image.

Agreed 1000%

Shanny played the game like I would love our Leafs to, and take on an identity based on the type player he was.

 

[Trapper]

Agreed 1000%

Shanny played the game like I would love our Leafs to, and take on an identity based on the type player he was.

Then we need a lot of new players because we are the polar opposite of that. We are incredibly soft but skilled. I see very little desire or passion. Was that a result of the collapse? I'm not sure but it seems when our teams 1- dimensional skill is not working we give up because they have nothing else to draw on.

 

[share]

Then we need a lot of new players because we are the polar opposite of that. We are incredibly soft but skilled. I see very little desire or passion. Was that a result of the collapse? I'm not sure but it seems when our teams 1- dimensional skill is not working we give up because they have nothing else to draw on.

Yes the current Leafs are nowhere close to the type of player that Shanahan was. Mentally going through the current lineup and Kulemin without the offense is the only one close. If we are going to expect Shanahan to buld a team like his mold, there will have to be a lot of changes. Clean house..

 

[hockeywiz542]

Fluto Shinzawa of the Boston Globe thinks that hiring Brendan Shanahan is a good move by the Toronto Maple Leafs. Shanahan will bring credibility and imagination to the Toronto Maple Leafs. It is quite obvious that the Leafs have buried themselves with some questionable personnel decisions.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...maple-leafs/he0kQ7V8VYevpyvN8kTWwN/story.html

Credibility and imagination were two elusive elements for the Leafs in 2013-14. Brendan Shanahan brings both to the ACC.

They’ve buried themselves with some questionable personnel decisions. Last summer, general manager Dave Nonis burned both of the club’s compliance buyouts on Mike Komisarek and Mikhail Grabovski. The Leafs could have used one of those get-out-of-jail-free cards this summer on Tim Gleason, on the books for two more years at $4 million annually.

Last summer, they handed David Clarkson a seven-year, $36.75 million blockbuster. It’s an anchor unless Clarkson finds his game. He scored five goals and six assists in 60 games this season. Because Clarkson’s contract includes major bonuses, the Leafs would not receive significant cap relief if they bought out the ex-Devil.

Another deadweight is the seven-year, $49 million extension the Leafs gave Dion Phaneuf. That’s a whole lot of cash for a defenseman who regularly roams out of position, tries to throw ill-advised hits, and plays too much (23:33 average) against elite players. On a championship team such as Chicago, Phaneuf would be the No. 4 defenseman behind Duncan Keith, Brent Seabrook, and Niklas Hjalmarsson. On the Leafs, he’s the clear-cut No. 1. That’s not a good thing.

Phaneuf probably would have gotten that deal on the open market. But the Leafs couldn’t afford to let him walk. As many shortcomings as Phaneuf has, the Leafs had nobody who could replace his shifts. That falls on hockey operations for not stocking the defense with assets.

 

[glue]

Fluto Shinzawa of the Boston Globe thinks that hiring Brendan Shanahan is a good move by the Toronto Maple Leafs. Shanahan will bring credibility and imagination to the Toronto Maple Leafs. It is quite obvious that the Leafs have buried themselves with some questionable personnel decisions.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...maple-leafs/he0kQ7V8VYevpyvN8kTWwN/story.html

Good Article..I guess we'll see what Shanny is all about.

 

[Banic]

Good Article..I guess we'll see what Shanny is all about.

It'll be dismissed as crap once the Phaneuf crowd reads that he's a #4 on Chicago.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

It'll be dismissed as crap once the Phaneuf crowd reads that he's a #4 on Chicago.

Probably regarded as an overstatement. If Phaneuf was given a fairly generous offensive role like Seabrook, he would be producing much better numbers. His situation is really a lot like J-Bo, Grabovski, Stastny such that if his minutes were lightened or he was better supported, strong numbers will appear.

That said, Phaneuf is stronger than Hjalmarsson in a shut down role. Seeing that Chicago's pairing skates with Sharp - Toews - Hossa up front, it's not surprising that it's affected against top competition. In our case, Bolland was hardly around and our top line ( while it can produce in all situations) just doesn't have the ability to keep top lines occupied in their own zone.

It's a team sport. I can't see Shanahan being stupid enough to trade Phaneuf at a loss. He's a workhorse like Phaneuf and would probably be more disconnected with Kadri/ Kessel than anyone else. In fact, I could see Dion traded to Detroit at a loss and blossoming in their system. He'd be better supported with two-way defenceman, forwards, and a good system.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Probably regarded as an overstatement. If Phaneuf was given a fairly generous offensive role like Seabrook, he would be producing much better numbers. His situation is really a lot like J-Bo, Grabovski, Stastny such that if his minutes were lightened or he was better supported, strong numbers will appear.

That said, Phaneuf is stronger than Hjalmarsson in a shut down role. Seeing that Chicago's pairing skates with Sharp - Toews - Hossa up front, it's not surprising that it's affected against top competition. In our case, Bolland was hardly around and our top line ( while it can produce in all situations) just doesn't have the ability to keep top lines occupied in their own zone.

It's a team sport. I can't see Shanahan being stupid enough to trade Phaneuf at a loss. He's a workhorse like Phaneuf and would probably be more disconnected with Kadri/ Kessel than anyone else. In fact, I could see Dion traded to Detroit at a loss and blossoming in their system. He'd be better supported with two-way defenceman, forwards, and a good system.

He is to dumb to play for Detroit, at leas with that contract.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

He is to dumb to play for Detroit, at leas with that contract.

Whatever you say. Seeing that his scouting report described him as two-way, effective, calm and smart, I wouldn't believe that. He played on two dysfunctional teams, mopped up the toughest minutes ( even with Wilson), and was hardly the missing link. Hell, I'd never describe Jake Gardiner in that category and I see him as a potential top pairing defenceman. Besides, Andrew MacDonald with his 27 point high is taking him $5 million, Streit ( 35+) @ $5.2 million, and the one-dimensional, injury prone, Letang @ $7.25, Dion's cap isn't that bad at all.

One doesn't just suddenly forget how to play hockey:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/columnist/woodlief/2003-01-06-woodlief_x.htm

 

[shakes]

Whatever you say. Seeing that his scouting report described him as two-way, effective, calm and smart, I wouldn't believe that. He played on two dysfunctional teams, mopped up the toughest minutes ( even with Wilson), and was hardly the missing link. Hell, I'd never describe Jake Gardiner in that category and I see him as a potential top pairing defenceman. Besides, Andrew MacDonald with his 27 point high is taking him $5 million, Streit ( 35+) @ $5.2 million, and the one-dimensional, injury prone, Letang @ $7.25, Dion's cap isn't that bad at all.

One doesn't just suddenly forget how to play hockey:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/columnist/woodlief/2003-01-06-woodlief_x.htm

Careful now.. the lynch mob is out and you know they don't like sensible arguments. With them, any "defense" or objectivity in other words, is a sign that one is a Phaneuf "defender" or "apologist" and they can't have that when they are trying to run a guy out of town and then moan about what the team lost. Then they can find another player to throw the boat anchor on and rinse and repeat.

 

[Stephen]

Whatever you say. Seeing that his scouting report described him as two-way, effective, calm and smart, I wouldn't believe that. He played on two dysfunctional teams, mopped up the toughest minutes ( even with Wilson), and was hardly the missing link. Hell, I'd never describe Jake Gardiner in that category and I see him as a potential top pairing defenceman. Besides, Andrew MacDonald with his 27 point high is taking him $5 million, Streit ( 35+) @ $5.2 million, and the one-dimensional, injury prone, Letang @ $7.25, Dion's cap isn't that bad at all.

One doesn't just suddenly forget how to play hockey:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/columnist/woodlief/2003-01-06-woodlief_x.htm

If you're relying on an article from USA Today from 2003, you're wrong. That's a good rule of thumb.

By your logic, we should probably throw some franchise money at Dany Heatley this summer. He was pretty hot **** in 2003, and one doesn't just suddenly forget how to play hockey, from what I understand...

 

[Stephen]

Careful now.. the lynch mob is out and you know they don't like sensible arguments. With them, any "defense" or objectivity in other words, is a sign that one is a Phaneuf "defender" or "apologist" and they can't have that when they are trying to run a guy out of town and then moan about what the team lost. Then they can find another player to throw the boat anchor on and rinse and repeat.

Maybe if the team didn't implode spectacularly every year we could actually enjoy watching the team play in meaningful games instead of playing the blame game. But yeah, it's always the fan's fault...

 

[The_Chosen_One]

If you're relying on an article from USA Today from 2003, you're wrong. That's a good rule of thumb.

By your logic, we should probably throw some franchise money at Dany Heatley this summer. He was pretty hot **** in 2003, and one doesn't just suddenly forget how to play hockey, from what I understand...

Dany Heatley is essentially the same player that he was during his draft year. He was never a strong skater, still plays in high-traffic areas, and plays an inconsistent game. Thing is, he's aged so that's going to limit his game.

Dion is not washed out, on the other hand. Watching the game tells us that he can play under a system that has us spending most of the time in the defensive zone. You'd think his partner, like Aucoin, could that puck out, because that was never part of his game. For Dion to be offensive dominant, he joins the rush, but in terms of making safe, effective passes, he's elite in that regard. That was part of his game in 2003 and still is now.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Maybe if the team didn't implode spectacularly every year we could actually enjoy watching the team play in meaningful games instead of playing the blame game. But yeah, it's always the fan's fault...

Be realistic. The foolish knee-jerk behaviour from our fan base is why we see the same from the administrators. We've - time after time - made stupid trades rather than managing assets well.

Trading a defenceman who has produced >40 points while playing an all-round game is just moronic. His performance is obviously going to rebound seeing that he produced 9 points in the 13 games after the break. We collapsed as a team then so it makes no sense to pin it on him. The sensible strategy is to wait a year, get those numbers back up and then trade him.

 

[pooleboy]

Maybe if the team didn't implode spectacularly every year we could actually enjoy watching the team play in meaningful games instead of playing the blame game. But yeah, it's always the fan's fault...

Lol this is leafs nation bro, its definitly the fans fault for the playoffs collapsing year after year.

God where is the credibility/accountability for some of these players. Although i disagree that phaneuf would be a #4, more like #2 on chicago, if this team ever wants to actually win something phaneuf and kessel are the first to go. U can ***** and moan about wanting to watch meaningful hockey, but i can wait a couple more years to rebuild a perenial winner, one which we are proud to call our team rather than hiding in shame because these core players crack under the pressure year after year.

And btw, gunnerson was our best defenceman this year, u can throw a timbit hockey player against crosby every shift and say he has tough minutes, but that only matters if u actually win, we didnt so that just shows he is either uncapable of shutting down top offensive players (for 7 million u should be able to do that)

With phaneuf and kessel making 15 mill of our cap is ridiculous and will nver win with these guys, we are the only team to successfully collapse 3 atraight years, with core pieces who werent developed and drafted here and, for all of u complainers all those teams who u dpnt want to be because they are perenial tankers (nyi, cbj, florida, edmonton) all of those teams have. Made the playoffs as much as the leafs since the lockout.

Einstein: idiotic: trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results

The leafs organization by this definition are a bunch of idiots and ahould clean slate

 

[pooleboy]

Be realistic. The foolish knee-jerk behaviour from our fan base is why we see the same from the administrators. We've - time after time - made stupid trades rather than managing assets well.

Trading a defenceman who has produced >40 points while playing an all-round game is just moronic. His performance is obviously going to rebound seeing that he produced 9 points in the 13 games after the break. We collapsed as a team then so it makes no sense to pin it on him. The sensible strategy is to wait a year, get those numbers back up and then trade him.

Trade everyone over 24 ( keep bernier/jvr/rielly all costs) and build through the draft and develop, get a top young player next draft (top 3 barzal, mcdavid, eichel all potential #1 c) and let young players play, its what makes other organizations successful, ufa/trades dont work in the nhl

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Lol this is leafs nation bro, its definitly the fans fault for the playoffs collapsing year after year.

God where is the credibility/accountability for some of these players. Although i disagree that phaneuf would be a #4, more like #2 on chicago, if this team ever wants to actually win something phaneuf and kessel are the first to go. U can ***** and moan about wanting to watch meaningful hockey, but i can wait a couple more years to rebuild a perenial winner, one which we are proud to call our team rather than hiding in shame because these core players crack under the pressure year after year.

I'd do it considering the return. You don't trade someone who is productive at a loss. Phaneuf moved for nothing is going to be a lot of fans upset when he rebounds over there.

That's what Leafs do well. We horribly manage assets and watch ex-Leafs do better elsewhere. I definitely don't want to see that again.

And btw, gunnerson was our best defenceman this year, u can throw a timbit hockey player against crosby every shift and say he has tough minutes, but that only matters if u actually win, we didnt so that just shows he is either uncapable of shutting down top offensive players (for 7 million u should be able to do that)

By what metric? Dion had the toughest minutes and was stronger possession driver than Gunnars as well. Problem is, Carlyle had Dion play like a PMD which he is not. Gunnarsson didn't add much in terms of making use of the puck especially considering that we were living in the defensive zone.

Now don't get me wrong, Gunnarsson could be part of a shut down pairing even though he isn't as adept at moving the puck as Hjalmarsson. What would really be required is a potent two-way top line that can tie up the opposing top lines. In Chicago's case, that is the Toews line. Prior to that, you had Bolland paired with Kane, and that's obviously going to help with possession numbers. It'd be more of a puck moving type of "shut down" pairing rather than the physical, shut down variety that we tend to see.