Post-Game Talk: LEAFS LOSE IN SHOOTOUT 3-2 | SAT, 30-SEP @ 7:00 PM | SPORTSNET | RICOH COLISEUM

[BlueBaron]

The trouble for Leivo is:
1. Say Leivo and Kappy are deemed good enough to make the team. Kappy gets to play this year by virtue of being waiver exempt. Leivo doesn't.

2. In response to JVR being the better player. Obviously yes. His offense is superior. However it's hard to know what Leivo's 82 game season offense is when he's benched for 60 games. It leads me to ask the question. Should an early 20's something player be a 13th/14th forward or is that better for Moore/Fehr? Marincin 7th/8th D or Dermott?

3. I'd rather trade a player a year too early than a year too late. The whole purpose to draft, develop, replenish is to move the Leivos in when NHL ready and move the soon to be UFAs out (if not in the long term plan, too expensive, or they are support players that you have groomed backfill for). You acquire more stock for this players or specific piece to keep the pipeline rolling.

Again what is Leivo on this team other than a guy who has made the NHL (IMO) and is a healthy scratch every night. Should we keep him if the coach doesn't think he's a better option than 20 guys? Once your waiver status runs out, you need a place or a new place. Extra forward isn't the place for Leivo. It is for Fehr.

I would say Leivo's future is in doubt with us. Spots are limited, other guys are going to push hard for those jobs, we should probably just trade him. Maybe Lou has a deal in the works to make room, only time will tell.

 

[JayDog17]

Not sure why no one else has said anything about it, but Leivo didn't look bad in the face off circle last night. I'd try him in the 4th line centre role until you make room higher in the lineup on the wing. Let Fehr or Moore sit in the pressbox instead. Pretty sure Brown would rather play with Leivo than either of those plugs.

 

[zeke]

How many forwards had a better preseason than Leivo?

1.Matthews
2.Nylander
3.????

 

[Nithoniniel]

Oh poor Peter Holland never got a chance from our mean management,,,,,,and he is where now?
https://www.habseyesontheprize.com/...nd-waivers-michael-mccarron-jakub-jerabek-ahl

Oh poor Frank Corrado never got a chance from our mean management,,,,,,and he is where now?
https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/hockey/news/penguins-frank-corrado-hits-waiver-wire/

Now poor Josh Leivo isn't getting a chance from our mean management......how can they be so stubborn?

Holland got plenty of chances. Tons of them. He never did anything other than be barely passable, and I don't remember any outcry about him.

There was for Frankie. I remember someone - think it was PuckMagi - completely bashing Babcock as absolutely worthless because Frankie never got a chance over some of the other bottom pairing guys. He put up some good numbers in tissue soft usage and a small sample size, so there was some merit.

Leivo is a differently animal in that regard. I've posted about it before, but in terms of how well players has shown as much in their opportunities as Leivo has before hitting waivers. The few who has went on to become very good players as well.

How many forwards had a better preseason than Leivo?

1.Matthews
2.Nylander
3.????

Can't say any other forwards have been better at him. Not sure anyone else came close. Perhaps Johnsson, who I thought had a terrific camp.

 

[firstemperor]

How many forwards had a better preseason than Leivo?

1.Matthews
2.Nylander
3.????

He was probably one of the 5 best forwards on the ice, at minimum, when he played last year as well. Obviously, he has his flaws (he's not a speedy, utility guy- and this means a lot under the guise if Babcock's playstyle/set-up).

He may very well end up being a middle 6-bottom 6 guy but I also think he provides a dynamic we lack...which is someone who is strong on the puck, good in the corners, good in tight spaces, and great at puck retrieval and actually doing something with the puck thereafter. Right now, only Willy and Matthews are adept at either. Babcock speaks about wanting players that aren't puck-dominant and good at these facets....Leivo fits that mold. Maybe he doesn't have to kick out Hyman to do it, but he can provide a change in dynamic in another line...i.e. dimensions that don't rely entirely on skill and where his effort/tenacity can be relied upon game-game

Also, Leivo is nothing like Corrado, Colborne, or Holland. Those might have been very, very small injustices on a bad, sheltered team. Leivo is closer to criminal (not exactly). He's on another level than either.

We're talking someone closer to Teravainen, Palmeri, Spooner. Not saying he will breakout like any of them but the profile is more similar to the aforementioned than Holland.

 

[dimi78]

So you cannot conceive that JVR earned a spot and is a better player? I know some people think his D is not good enough and others think your whole team needs to be strong two way players (which is not true of any team) but if you look at production among left wingers over the past few years guess what? JVR is one of the most productive LW in the league. He is also very consistent. If Leivo was better than JVR, JVR would be gone by now. Think about it.

People buy into the lip service propaganda that gets spewed at this time of year. The team was selected a long time ago. JVR didn't earn a spot his contract did. With how he played in this camp if this was the none guaranteed contract of the NFL he would have been cut. Being a better player is relative to what a team needs and is looking for in a specific area. JVR is an off the rush & PP specialist for his offense. He's also had the luxury of playing with Kessel and last season Marner to get his numbers but what he isn't is consistent in the compete department or has a give a $hit meter. Called out last season to get it going, constantly chirped to get his feet moving. When is enough going to be enough with this guy?

Leivo is young brings everything JVR doesn't provide and has the offensive skill set to provide offense as well. What can he do with Marner feeding him the puck? It's not easy to make trades. Especially the ones where you don't want money coming back. JVR won't get the team back a top 4 D men so the only thing they can do is not devalue him. Play him and hope something comes along. This has nothing to do with JVR being a better player. He wont be re-signed for a reason. It's what happens in a guaranteed contract league that youngsters can at times be impossible to make the team.

 

[Nithoniniel]

We're talking someone closer to Teravainen, Palmeri, Spooner.

Not 100% sure about this, but Palmieri must be a great comparison. Didn't get good chances, but always performed well relative to his opportunity. Moved to a team that actual gave him the minutes, and he turned into a top line winger.

 

[Mikeyg]

How many forwards had a better preseason than Leivo?

1.Matthews
2.Nylander
3.????

Are you actually serious with this? Or have you just turned into a troll?

How about starting by listing the guys who scored more:
Matthews
Nylander
Komarov
Fehr
Hyman
Johnsson
Kapanen
Marner
JVR
Brown
Marleau
Sosh

who all have more points than leivo's 1.



Next how about we look at plus minus:
Kadri
Sosh
Marleau
Johnsson
Hyman
Fehr
Komarov
Nylander
Matthews

Then you can even take it a step further!!! Not only did he take the 2nd most amount of shots during the preseason (14), he also has the worst shooting % during it at zero percent.

So cut the crap zeke, he wasn't even close to being the 3rd best forward by any measurable statistic, and he certainly didn't take anybody's job.

 

[zeke]

People buy into the lip service propaganda that gets spewed at this time of year. The team was selected a long time ago. JVR didn't earn a spot his contract did. With how he played in this camp if this was the none guaranteed contract of the NFL he would have been cut. Being a better player is relative to what a team needs and is looking for in a specific area. JVR is an off the rush & PP specialist for his offense. He's also had the luxury of playing with Kessel and last season Marner to get his numbers but what he isn't is consistent in the compete department or has a give a $hit meter. Called out last season to get it going, constantly chirped to get his feet moving. When is enough going to be enough with this guy?

Leivo is young brings everything JVR doesn't provide and has the offensive skill set to provide offense as well. What can he do with Marner feeding him the puck? It's not easy to make trades. Especially the ones where you don't want money coming back. JVR won't get the team back a top 4 D men so the only thing they can do is not devalue him. Play him and hope something comes along. This has nothing to do with JVR being a better player. He wont be re-signed for a reason. It's what happens in a guaranteed contract league that youngsters can at times be impossible to make the team.

Honestly, JVR was the best player on his line this camp, in every game.

 

[zeke]

Are you actually serious with this? Or have you just turned into a troll?

How about starting by listing the guys who scored more:
Matthews
Nylander
Komarov
Fehr
Hyman
Johnsson
Kapanen
Marner
JVR
Brown
Marleau
Sosh

who all have more points than leivo's 1.



Next how about we look at plus minus:
Kadri
Sosh
Marleau
Johnsson
Hyman
Fehr
Komarov
Nylander
Matthews

Then you can even take it a step further!!! Not only did he take the 2nd most amount of shots during the preseason (14), he also has the worst shooting % during it at zero percent.

So cut the crap zeke, he wasn't even close to being the 3rd best forward by any measurable statistic, and he certainly didn't take anybody's job.

The only stat you cited there that is worth anything in this small sample is that he was 2nd in shots. which is a very good thing.

 

[firstemperor]

Not 100% sure about this, but Palmieri must be a great comparison. Didn't get good chances, but always performed well relative to his opportunity. Moved to a team that actual gave him the minutes, and he turned into a top line winger.

Admittedly, Palmeri is on the high-end of breakout projectables....but the truth is, Leivo is ready now and deserves a chance IMO.

 

[Mikeyg]

The only stat you cited there that is worth anything in this small sample is that he was 2nd in shots. which is a very good thing.

Oh man what a classic. Take a look at the stats for yourself big boy https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/stats/playersort/east/year-2017-season-preseason-category-points
i'm sorry but your man didn't win a spot and will most likely be traded. He just wasn't good enough, a scorer who doesn't score isn't a player you keep around.

 

[DarkKnight]

I honestly think Leivo would be awesome with Matthews, Nylander. He digs pucks off the wall, which is what they get from Hyman. Leivo has an NHL shot, he doesn't need the puck a lot, he can make plays. Seems a perfect compliment on that line, particularly given Nylander's improving defensive play.

 

[Mikeyg]

Times up for him DarkKnight, we can't even get Marleau up there and you think babs is just going to magically put leivo there? He's been this fringe nhl player for literally 3 years now, he has had ample opportunities but he has never grasped and TAKEN a spot. Where is the finish?????? nobody can answer that one and that is exactly why his time is running out here. I like the kid, but at some point you have to make things happen for yourself, and he just never has been able to do that.

 

[CanadasTeam]

Leivo > Hyman

you just can't contain this in one thread, i'm starting to think there really is something wrong with you.

 

[firstemperor]

Leivo is young brings everything JVR doesn't provide and has the offensive skill set to provide offense as well. What can he do with Marner feeding him the puck? It's not easy to make trades. Especially the ones where you don't want money coming back. JVR won't get the team back a top 4 D men so the only thing they can do is not devalue him. Play him and hope something comes along. This has nothing to do with JVR being a better player. He wont be re-signed for a reason. It's what happens in a guaranteed contract league that youngsters can at times be impossible to make the team.

Yea I don't think anyone expects the Leafs to sit JVR for Leivo if they are both on the same team. Not only is JVR the superior player/talent/commodity but the optics of that would be terrible.
No UFA or fringe player would want to come here. It would be Filppula 2.0 but worst.

I think people who are pushing Leivo are those that see big picture considerations...like Leivo being a longer-term investment and worth the opportunity risk.

I honestly think Leivo would be awesome with Matthews, Nylander. He digs pucks off the wall, which is what they get from Hyman. Leivo has an NHL shot, he doesn't need the puck a lot, he can make plays. Seems a perfect compliment on that line, particularly given Nylander's improving defensive play.

I think Hyman is significantly faster to the puck than Leivo which means a lot. Leivo is better in tight spaces, winning puck battles, providing puck support and the whole nine years thereafter. But I'm not convinced either way on the matter.

I can see both sides to it.....I don't know if you want to stick Leivo with Matthews/Nylander just because of how fast both of them can play.

 

[zeke]

Oh man what a classic. Take a look at the stats for yourself big boy https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/stats/playersort/east/year-2017-season-preseason-category-points
i'm sorry but your man didn't win a spot and will most likely be traded. He just wasn't good enough, a scorer who doesn't score isn't a player you keep around.

yes, I know the stats. And I've told you which is the only one that means anything.

 

[hockeyes]

It's not very likely the Leafs stay as healthy as they did last year, that alone will give Leivo more games. I'm not sure why we'd trade him for next to nothing when there's a good chance he'll be needed at some point during the year.

 

[RLF]

yes, I know the stats. And I've told you which is the only one that means anything.

You do know Hyman had 17 more shots than Brown last year even though Hyman had no PP time. Just sayin.

 

[Nithoniniel]

we can't even get Marleau up there and you think babs is just going to magically put leivo there?

Magically?

 

[BlueBaron]

People buy into the lip service propaganda that gets spewed at this time of year. The team was selected a long time ago. JVR didn't earn a spot his contract did. With how he played in this camp if this was the none guaranteed contract of the NFL he would have been cut. Being a better player is relative to what a team needs and is looking for in a specific area. JVR is an off the rush & PP specialist for his offense. He's also had the luxury of playing with Kessel and last season Marner to get his numbers but what he isn't is consistent in the compete department or has a give a $hit meter. Called out last season to get it going, constantly chirped to get his feet moving. When is enough going to be enough with this guy?

Leivo is young brings everything JVR doesn't provide and has the offensive skill set to provide offense as well. What can he do with Marner feeding him the puck? It's not easy to make trades. Especially the ones where you don't want money coming back. JVR won't get the team back a top 4 D men so the only thing they can do is not devalue him. Play him and hope something comes along. This has nothing to do with JVR being a better player. He wont be re-signed for a reason. It's what happens in a guaranteed contract league that youngsters can at times be impossible to make the team.

A lot of flaws with what you have said. How did JVR do after we traded Kessel? What's that? he lead our team in scoring and was on pace for 60 pts and 30 goals even without Kessel? Must just be lucky that he is the most consistent player we have had for years. C'mon you're trying too hard.

Your other point is equally weak. ln your world management is saying "You know we could probably get assets for JVR but let's hold on to him to supress our much better player Leivo. We could not possibly make use of his Cap space and the assets he could bring it, it is better for us to field a worse team"

Leivo has looked great at times but he may not even make it as a top 6 guy, and you want to replace a legit #1 LW with him. That is just not how the real world works, especially with playoff teams.

 

[BlueBaron]

It's not very likely the Leafs stay as healthy as they did last year, that alone will give Leivo more games. I'm not sure why we'd trade him for next to nothing when there's a good chance he'll be needed at some point during the year.

The only reason would be if we could field a better team without him. Is he ahead of Kappy? Hard to say which would make our team better right now. Sometimes teams will trade a guy just to let him play. Maybe he is part of a package to upgrade somewhere else? As long as Babs loves Martin Leivo and any other winger for that matter is in tough to get a job with the big team. Don't forget there are other guys who want that job too, Bracco could have a great start in the A, Rychel could be the guy. With our insane depth it's hard to predict anything but something has to give soon.

 

[dimi78]

I would say Leivo's future is in doubt with us. Spots are limited, other guys are going to push hard for those jobs, we should probably just trade him. Maybe Lou has a deal in the works to make room, only time will tell.

Communication and professionalism is key to what happens. They protected him in the expansion draft they would not have done that if they didn't see him part of the team moving forward and you have to believe the organization is in communication with him for what's happening and how they view him. His agent hasn't said anything so you have to think at this point he's on board with what management is selling to him. Again in a guaranteed contract league it's tough to make room for deserving youth and really it depends on Leivo himself how much he wants to be a Leaf at this point. He could behind closed doors ask to be traded to further his career. Nothing wrong with that and if he does it right stays a pro about his situation the organization will oblige. However there's an incredible opportunity that will open up for him in Leaf Land if he stays patient. The organization knows he could be a part of this team like I said they wouldn't have protected him if that wasn't the case. JVR wont be back and for one more year being the extra forward might be beneficial to him. Playing with Marner is something he wont find elsewhere.

 

[Mikeyg]

yes, I know the stats. And I've told you which is the only one that means anything.

Remember when you used to actually make arguments based on stats? Rather than baseless emotional attachment? I will ask you again zeke. WHERE IS THE FINISH? You can't answer because you know it doesn't exist. You conspire against our star players and reach on the fringe nhl'ers, I don't understand what your game plan is.

 

[frizzer1]

I don't think it really mattered what Leivo, Soshnikov, or Kapanen did in the preseason.
They were not going to start....it was written in stone..