Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose 3-2

[saltming]

They got their contracts now, no excuses.

Facts are not excuses

 

[saltming]

Yeah i do agree with patience. It's why i hated the Barrie deal so much, not keen on the Marleau trade (let's not go into that though) and even the Muzzin trade a little bit iffy.

I wanted more patience a couple of years ago, but Dubas has definitely been making deals that are looking to win now.

It's why I'm so confused about what he is seeing. He's throwing around draft picks to improve the team now but that defense is horrendous and one of his 'assets' will leave as a UFA.

We paid through the nose for Marner and Matthews (Tavares a bit as well). The idea that they are still learning how to win a round on 11.5 mil a year is disappointing

All good points, but I'm ok with the signings of our stars. Steep yes but I'm hoping Pridham knows what he's doing

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I don't understand why people insist goaltending is the problem when the team played like crap for over half the game... we need to stop taking nights off.

One positive takeaway from the game is that the Clifford fight really sparked a change in momentum, when we really needed one. Leafs started to play well after that.

If the Leafs played like crap for half the game, then so did the Stars. They were not outplaying us. There were some poor defensive plays, but the Leafs had a ton of chances where they broke down a top ranked defense but Bishop bailed them out, or they got a lucky bounce.

Meanwhile Andersen gave up two weak 5-hole goals again, both saves he should have had regardless of it being a breakaway, and gave up a huge rebound on the power play that was unacceptable. He had some nice saves but ultimately giving up 3 weak goals against a team that was not doing much offensively is unacceptable.

And that Clifford fight did not make a difference. The Leafs started playing better once they started to make smarter plays, and regressed again as soon as they stopped doing that. If a fight was what they needed to start doing that, then they may just very well be the most dense players in the league. Energy was not the problem, decision- making was. The amount of times they overpassed or tried to force things, or were just casually making plays that they thought was going to work was appalling, but it wasn't like they were not working or skating hard out there.

 

[Bluelines]

First goal was weak, but the Leafs need to play better in from of Freddy.

First goal was indeed weak and sometimes you just need to tip your hat to the opposing team. Dallas played a perfect road game. They clogged the neutral zone, preventing the Leafs from getting any speed. They prevented the 3rd and 4th passes, they did a pretty good job of stopping the cycle, they did a really good job of stopping the point shot from getting through. They had textbook active sticks, Dallas played what was once known as NJ Devils hockey. If you enjoy hockey you can appreciate the game Dallas played yesterday, they made Toronto fight for every inch of ice, they contested every possession. If the Leafs played team D the way Dallas did yesterday and played offence like the top offensive 3 team they are, the Leafs would easily march to the SCF.

 

[saltming]

14th in sv% amongst 30+GP goalies is in fact slightly above average, not Vezina territory.

Yet last year he was in contention for it.
This year not so much.

 

[Clark4Ever]

We deserved a better fate last night, and Freddy needs to be better, but I think he needs at least a couple of more starts before contemplating a switch to Campbell.

 

[Erdinger]

Was hoping the ‘starting a period on time’ would change under the new coach

Well this has been going on since the Ron Wilson era,right through Carlyle,Horachek,Babs and now Keefe. There must be something about the jersey because everything else has changed Seriously though at some point the Leafs goalies have to make more than just routine saves even if the team brainfarts to start periods are the norm

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Barrie was good yesterday, the rookie Ds were ok but looked a bit like (good) rookies. Andersen had a crap come back after the injury. Dallas played a very tight game and managed slow down the Leafs to the extent that the team was standing still while entering Dallas zone.

It got better as the time went on, especially when Nylander went back to Tavares.

It was a tight game and Bishop stole it for Dallas, lets move on.

Keefe is so much better than Babs, he is actually coaching and trying to get the best out of the team. I like him as a coach but the kid line was a mistake. The top 6 looked out of sync for 2 games, maybe a little bit better at the end but still.

Marner looks a bit off his stride and Tavares doesnt look like the super star he should be.

There is 1 HUGE point you are missing. Barrie was not good. Barrie CHOOSE to not fight for pucks in his own end again last night. He makes his partners worse because like Rielly and now Dermy they are forced to take every hit and make every takeover in our end. He needs to grow some b*lls like Muzzy told him and do it every night. He can do it. He CHOOSE's not to take the punishment required to play defense in the NHL. It is costs us and most fans do not understand how it really works because they never played. Dermy can't stand playing with this guy. He is a nice guy but players are very frustrated with him. He only cares about getting his 8M per. And he is trying to keep himslef healthy to get his retirement. You can't win with that effort like last night. It is nowhere near NHL level.

 

[Bluelines]

Barrie was good yesterday, the rookie Ds were ok but looked a bit like (good) rookies. Andersen had a crap come back after the injury. Dallas played a very tight game and managed slow down the Leafs to the extent that the team was standing still while entering Dallas zone.

It got better as the time went on, especially when Nylander went back to Tavares.

It was a tight game and Bishop stole it for Dallas, lets move on.

Keefe is so much better than Babs, he is actually coaching and trying to get the best out of the team. I like him as a coach but the kid line was a mistake. The top 6 looked out of sync for 2 games, maybe a little bit better at the end but still.

Marner looks a bit off his stride and Tavares doesnt look like the super star he should be.

I thought I was the only one who noticed that, Marner looks tired, unfocused, not sure what to call it but he's been giving the puck away at an alarming rate, he's been creating more chances for the other team than our team, not sure what to call his current game, hot garbage might be a little strong but not far off. He's certainly not the playing like the elite winger that we've known since he came back from that high ankle sprain, he's been really bad the last 4 or 5 games.

 

[MyBudJT]

Leafs fans Blame Game:

2018-19
G̶a̶r̶d̶i̶n̶e̶r̶
B̶r̶o̶w̶n̶
M̶a̶r̶l̶e̶a̶u̶
Z̶a̶i̶t̶s̶e̶v̶
Babcock

2019-20
B̶a̶b̶c̶o̶c̶k̶
Andersen
Ceci


Funny how we're getting rid of the "supposed" problems, and yet this team seems to get worse...

 

[Bluelines]

There is 1 HUGE point you are missing. Barrie was not good. Barrie CHOOSE to not fight for pucks in his own end again last night. He makes his partners worse because like Rielly and now Dermy they are forced to take every hit and make every takeover in our end. He needs to grow some b*lls like Muzzy told him and do it every night. He can do it. He CHOOSE's not to take the punishment required to play defense in the NHL. It is costs us and most fans do not understand how it really works because they never played. Dermy can't stand playing with this guy. He is a nice guy but players are very frustrated with him. He only cares about getting his 8M per. And he is trying to keep himslef healthy to get his retirement. You can't win with that effort like last night. It is nowhere near NHL level.

There was one play, where Barrie was in the corner, gave the puck away and he just stood there and watched the game, he didn't move after the give away, he just sulked in the corner. If there was a thought bubble above his head, it would have said... "So I guess I have to actually work now?"

I was thinking am I actually seeing this, is he actually just standing there sulking? I would have zero issues with Dubas trading him for a controllable asset. Heck trade him to Boston for all I care. D-Men who don't play D are useless to me.

 

[18leafsfan18]

How many breakaways did we give up last night? How many times did the forward who was covering for the pinching defenceman let his man get by him? How many times/periods did we give up an early goal? Do you see any patterns?
We are a bubble team, and this is thanks to Dubas and Shanahan. Break the bank for 4 forwards, and say to hell with the defence!
What a colossal shame! We had such promise before we signed Tavares, and then signed the other 3 for those huge amounts. Any idiot knows you need to balance where you spend the money. I definitely see us taking one or two steps back before we can continue moving ahead.

Well Leafs had 11 High Danger Scoring Chances and Dallas had 8.

Leafs expected goals for were 1.94 and Dallas' was 1.19.

Points to losing the goal tending battle.

I'm fairly positive you will just dismiss these stats, so I'm not sure where we go from here.

 

[MyBudJT]

Well Leafs had 11 High Danger Scoring Chances and Dallas had 8.

Leafs expected goals for were 1.94 and Dallas' was 1.19.

Points to losing the goal tending battle.

I'm fairly positive you will just dismiss these stats, so I'm not sure where we go from here.

Those expected goals for/against metrics are very questionable, and its hardly fair to call them "stats".

 

[Bluelines]

There is 1 HUGE point you are missing. Barrie was not good. Barrie CHOOSE to not fight for pucks in his own end again last night. He makes his partners worse because like Rielly and now Dermy they are forced to take every hit and make every takeover in our end. He needs to grow some b*lls like Muzzy told him and do it every night. He can do it. He CHOOSE's not to take the punishment required to play defense in the NHL. It is costs us and most fans do not understand how it really works because they never played. Dermy can't stand playing with this guy. He is a nice guy but players are very frustrated with him. He only cares about getting his 8M per. And he is trying to keep himslef healthy to get his retirement. You can't win with that effort like last night. It is nowhere near NHL level.

..if someone signs him to $8 mil , it will be the Shattenkirk mistake all over again.

 

[hoglund]

Andersen has been a consistent slightly above average starter until this season. He has never been anything remotely resembling an MVP.

He's been much better than "slightly above average starter", he's been well above average and among the elite goalies of the league, this year not so much. He's been injured and overworked.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Yeah i do agree with patience. It's why i hated the Barrie deal so much, not keen on the Marleau trade (let's not go into that though) and even the Muzzin trade a little bit iffy.

I wanted more patience a couple of years ago, but Dubas has definitely been making deals that are looking to win now.

It's why I'm so confused about what he is seeing. He's throwing around draft picks to improve the team now but that defense is horrendous and one of his 'assets' will leave as a UFA.

We paid through the nose for Marner and Matthews (Tavares a bit as well). The idea that they are still learning how to win a round on 11.5 mil a year is disappointing

Ovi signed his deal is 2008, won the cup in 2018.

Players get paid for their production and all of the big players signed with Leafs have insane production.

Has absolutely nothing to do with winning a round in the playoffs. Not sure why everyone thinks it does.

Stanley Cups aren't automatically given to the team that pays the most money.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

There was one play, where Barrie was in the corner, gave the puck away and he just stood there and watched the game, he didn't move after the give away, he just sulked in the corner. If there was a thought bubble above his head, it would have said... "So I guess I have to actually work now?"

I was thinking am I actually seeing this, is he actually just standing there sulking? I would have zero issues with Dubas trading him for a controllable asset. Heck trade him to Boston for all I care. D-Men who don't play D are useless to me.

What is very frustrating to me is we saw against Zona he took 3-4 hits. He made a couple hits. But more importantly he fought along wall and in front of net for loose pucks. and he even won a couple puck scraps. I don't even care about his assist that game but it was nice. But it was only nice to me because he tried to fight in his own end. But is should not take a Muzzy lecture to find this type of game. And why in gods green earth did he revert back to NO MASSE again last night. I for one can't watch that. I would scratch him next game and have Keefe say publicly we can't have him in lineup unless he brings his fight in his own end. He might then do it because his agent will tell him if he does not play on a bad Leafs defense then he will not get a contract as a UFA in summer. This can be managed much better than it is today. Clearly a talking to is not enough.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Leafs fans Blame Game:

2018-19
G̶a̶r̶d̶i̶n̶e̶r̶
B̶r̶o̶w̶n̶
M̶a̶r̶l̶e̶a̶u̶
Z̶a̶i̶t̶s̶e̶v̶
Babcock

2019-20
B̶a̶b̶c̶o̶c̶k̶
Andersen
Ceci


Funny how we're getting rid of the "supposed" problems, and yet this team seems to get worse...

I agree with you to an extent but you’re also being hypocritical. You’re assigning blame too. What’s the difference between someone railing on Babcock or Ceci and you railing on Barrie all the time?

 

[Bluelines]

What is very frustrating to me is we saw against Zona he took 3-4 hits. He made a couple hits. But more importantly he fought along wall and in front of net for loose pucks. and he even won a couple puck scraps. I don't even care about his assist that game but it was nice. But it was only nice to me because he tried to fight in his own end. But is should not take a Muzzy lecture to find this type of game. And why in gods green earth did he revert back to NO MASSE again last night. I for one can't watch that. I would scratch him next game and have Keefe say publicly we can't have him in lineup unless he brings his fight in his own end. He might then do it because his agent will tell him if he does not play on a bad Leafs defense then he will not get a contract as a UFA in summer. This can be managed much better than it is today. Clearly a talking to is not enough.

I kinda glossed over that when I read it the first time, did Muzzin actually come out and say something about Barrie?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

..if someone signs him to $8 mil , it will be the Shattenkirk mistake all over again.

Some GM somewhere will do it. They will play him on 3rd pair and give him PP duties. He can rack up his 60-70 points and that's how the new NHL rolls. Folks pay for points. It will be a mistake but it will likely occur again. But I don't care about that. I care about how to fix our defense right here right now. I think a dramatic attacked plan against Barrie could help us short term. He needs us to get his retirement contract. So make him earn it.

 

[MyBudJT]

I agree with you to an extent but you’re also being hypocritical. You’re assigning blame too. What’s the difference between someone railing on Babcock or Ceci and you railing on Barrie all the time?

Barrie is a legit problem, the rest of the people on the list weren't...

 

[18leafsfan18]

Those expected goals for/against metrics are very questionable, and its hardly fair to call them "stats".

Yeah, no point arguing with someone who will only use his opinions to back up his arguments.

Prob nothing for us to talk about since you won't accept that stats are stats.

Not sure how you can watch that game last night (Even without stats) and argue the Leafs were the worse team.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Barrie is a legit problem, the rest of the people on the list weren't...

Based on......

An opinion.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I agree that the Nylander-Matthews-Marner experiment needs to end, at least as a full time thing. It's one thing to load up the lines after a PK or to catch the other team off guard, but doing it full time lets them prepare for it. He at least gave it a shot, but it wasn't really working and he fixed it at least.

The other thing is that Aberg needs to come out of the lineup. Gauthier and Timashov should not be sitting for him. Absolutely invisible, and the 4th line is being dragged down by him. Only played 5 minutes last night as a result of his poor play. Gauthier and Timashov at least generate something once in a while, and in general are not liabilities (even if they don't do a ton most nights). Considering they make less than league minimum and we are not relying upon our 4th line to do a whole lot offensively anyways, I'd much rather have that than most other alternatives.

 

[Vaive50]

Ovi signed his deal is 2008, won the cup in 2018.

Players get paid for their production and all of the big players signed with Leafs have insane production.

Has absolutely nothing to do with winning a round in the playoffs. Not sure why everyone thinks it does.

Stanley Cups aren't automatically given to the team that pays the most money.

The bolded is true but our offense in the last 3 games has been horrible, I mean 5 goals in regulation over 3 games is horrible. Though they've also had only 6 goals against in regulation during those 3 games, normally 6-5 either way would be one games output for the Leafs. They tried to play a good defensive game last night (hence only 19 shots against) and although Freddy let in some softies but our offense should have been able to score a few more goals to save Freddy's bacon, he has saved their bacon so many times since he has been on the Leafs.

It's funny how everyone talks about the players play better when they have confidence in the goalie (to make the big saves that they give up) but no one ever mentions that the goalie can play better when he has more confidence in his team (to score the big goals when he has let in some softies).