Proposal: Leafs/Flyers

[93gilmour93]

Yeah i mean from Bob McKenzie on down opinions are pretty low on that Ivan guy....

They are high on Provorov also. Nobody is saying Provorov isn't a great player. Just not as high as Matthews.....

 

[loyaltotheend]

The awful take? Read what I said again. I really don’t think you did. You picked one part you didn’t agree with and made a retort for it.

I clearly stated that Matthews doesn’t do much for the Flyers. We have Couturier as our 1C who is more complete defensively and produced very similarly to Matthews this past year. Now... this may be an unpopular opinion, but in some cases the MORE COMPLETE PLAYER ISNT THE BEST PLAYER. Couturier is a more complete/overall sound player than Matthews, but that doesn’t make him better. Matthews is clearly better. John Tavares is a more complete player than Ovechkin, but Ovechkin is a better player with a similar style of sniper. Argue all you want that tavares isn’t a sniper, he is- shooting metrics clearly indicate it, but it’s true. Same thing with the Jones Klingberg argument. Jones is a better complete player, but Klingberg is regarded as better.

I don’t really care about how important a position is. Cool. That has no relevance. Laine G/60 and A/60 (2.0 and 1.2) 16:29 TOI. Auston Matthews (1.8 and 1.5) 18:08 TOI.

Career numbers are marginally different from stated above... really no point in regressing the difference. If I had to guess I’d assume the difference of stated margin is within a 5% difference of each metric stated above.
**little sidenote- those 11 extra games based off of avg TOI and raw totals... it doesn’t have much of a difference since Matthews plays an average of 2 to 3 shifts more a game.

As per regressing equal TOI, Laine is the better player solely on a stats/metric view. Matthews is by far the more complete player yes. His IQ, Vision, Playmaking ability, and defense are better. Laines Offensive IQ and prowess are not matched though so far through the 2 years of their career.

Now... I guess I didn’t really explain well, but given that the Flyers have Couts, Patrick, G (if needed) as C... Matthews doesn’t do anything for us. Laine is better given that view. As a player, since I’ve really only seen people are argue stats, Laine is the better player and the better offensive player.

This argument goes to Ovi and Tavares too. Who would you rather have in the Ozone? Ovi should be your answer and so should Laine in the argument above. In the D and Neutral zone who would you rather have? Tavares and Matthews due to their defensive prowess. Since we’re so stat savvy and stat influenced, Laine is the better fit and player, yet the non complete.

Edit** my bad I meant to say Josi instead of Klingberg. I was reading an article too and I wrote his name instead of Josi.

You probably should have read my post.
The trade doesn't matter. Lainey is not as good as Matthews. The "pure-goal scorer" (read: one dimensional) can only score at the same rate while being inferior in every other way.

Laine has no offensive skills above Matthews. They've battled to a draw so far, while Laine plays 2nd line competition and this year in particular racks up PPP. Matthews scored most of his points at ES. (Not a huge deal, but both things are harder than Laine's usage). Maybe Matthews gets easier minutes this year, or maybe it's Tavares, but his totals likely go up as Toronto's offence gets as deep as the Jets.

Edit:
You're OV-Tavares comparison doesn't hold water. OV scores more that Tavares. Laine does not score more than Matthews. Huge difference

 

[mdm815]

They are high on Provorov also. Nobody is saying Provorov isn't a great player. Just not as high as Matthews.....

And we all agree on that. What flyers fans are taking issue with, is politely declining that the difference in value isn’t a Nolan Patrick, and being told we are crazy for thinking so.
To summarize everything, Flyers fans are okay w TML fans thinking its not enough value for their guy. We also don’t believe it’s a good value for us because of team makeup and cap structure. The difference is we aren’t offended that Toronto wouldn’t do the deal, and TML fans are flipping out that Philly doesn’t want to do it.

 

[loyaltotheend]

No they don't. Not at all. Keeping their #1 Dman and #2C means more than adding a better C.

Laine is not better. You are under rating Matthews a bunch. They have identical goals per game in their 2 years playing. But Matthews does more damage at ES, plays a more important position, and is better defensively. If you could only have one, Matthews is the better choice.

Regardless, the Leafs are not trading Matthews, Jets are not trading Laine, and Philly is not trading Provy.

This. Plain and simple

 

[loyaltotheend]

Agreed. There’s about 15 of them that make conversation unbearable. It’s a shame and reflects negatively on the fan base as a hole.

Try using ignore. I do, on plenty of other Leafs fans. And maybe it will lead to less echo-chamber garbage of "leaf fans think.."

 

[loyaltotheend]

I stand corrected. Well 99% of us obviously don’t believe that.

But this entire thread is:

Flyers fans: “We get why Toronto wouldn’t do this, but we wouldn’t either.”

Leafs fans: “LOL you idiots the flyers would accept laughing at this deal, I can’t believe people are saying no it must be the fact you hate the leafs har har har”

Flyers fans: “no it’s just the trade doesn’t make sense, we need Provorov and the big upgrade from Nolan to Auston isn’t worth it for us...”

Leafs: “more examples of the anti-leaf bias on HF... I’ve been here for years and it’s always been this way...”

It's like your first sentence says you understand the vocal minority doesn't represent everyone, yet carry on to tarnish "leaf fans".

Quoting the most obnoxious posters and attribute it to everyone only prolongs the arguments.

BF113 doesn't represent habs fans. Haatley doesn't represent the jets etc. Come on man

 

[7even]

According to Leaf fans Gardiner as a UFA is “easily worth a 1st” and yet Provorov doesn’t seem to have any significant value to them in a trade for Matthews.

Interesting.

Interesting is the, uh, right word for this post

 

[slimbob8]

Hahaha! Seriously? Mathews is very good but it's laughable to put him with McDavis and Crosby. Not.......Even....... close. He's below the next tier even of the Kopitar, Scheifele, Benn, Malkin, MacKinnon etc.

I get it, the potential is clearly there and he will most likely join that second tier as soon as this year. But he hasn't done it yet.

Your reading comprehension needs work. I explicitly said I don't put him in the same tier as McDavid and Crosby.

 

[Raging Bull]

According to Leaf fans Gardiner as a UFA is “easily worth a 1st” and yet Provorov doesn’t seem to have any significant value to them in a trade for Matthews.

Interesting.

Who is saying he doesn't have significant value? Try reading and posting again, we'll all wait patiently for the results.

 

[Starat327]

For who?

Flyers dont touch that deal. I wont speak for leafs fans.

 

[7even]

Flyers dont touch that deal. I wont speak for leafs fans.

I think common opinion is you never want to give up the best player in the deal. From the Flyers pov, I don't think you want to lose 2 foundational pieces for one.

 

[Canada4Gold]

No in August

Also no in September.

And before you ask it's no in October

And don't get the month wrong again just so you can pretend to ask in November

 

[habsgirl5000]

Lol, Toronto have been waiting 50 years to draft a player like Matthews.....I'm sure they are just aching to trade him away

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Let's be clear...

Auston Matthews isn't Connor McDavid. This seems to be the delusion under which Leafs fans think. They're not even close (no one is as far as value, frankly).

If TML was offered Provorv and Patrick, I can understand them saying no to it ultimately because Matthews is a very good player, but IF Patrick develops into a 1C or even a good 2C, it's a no-deal from Philly. Provorov is already monstrous on defense and a machine -- he'll be a #1D at worst for a long time (and I'd be willing to bet on that, barring injuries of course). Those two combined assets will be much more valuable if they meet their potential. Even if Patrick doesn't, I'd probably rather have Provorov. Hard to find cornerstone defensemen in Philly long-term-- we've had great centers many times and often.

As a Philly fan: I veto the deal. As a TML fan: I'd also veto the deal.

This isn't saying one package is worth more than the other, but values needed to be calibrated here -- I've seen many TML fans get offended at this deal and I really am not sure if they understand how good Provorov is and that Matthews isn't the new iteration of Mario Lemieux.

 

[Tripod]

Lol, Toronto have been waiting 50 years to draft a player like Matthews.....I'm sure they are just aching to trade him away

And now look how long the Flyers have waited for a player like Provorov thru the draft.

You might want to get a barf bag ready.

Philadelphia Flyers Draft History at hockeydb.com

 

[Tripod]

No in August

Also no in September.

And before you ask it's no in October

And don't get the month wrong again just so you can pretend to ask in November

Flyers are not asking though.

 

[pmwlker]

Try using ignore. I do, on plenty of other Leafs fans. And maybe it will lead to less echo-chamber garbage of "leaf fans think.."

I’m at 18 and counting unfortunately. Funny how only one is a fellow Flyers fan. The rest.....well......never mind.

 

[loyaltotheend]

I’m at 18 and counting unfortunately. Funny how only one is a fellow Flyers fan. The rest.....well......never mind.

Yeah. Way it goes when there's way less of you to begin with. But if you think you're contributing by generalizing like that, knock yourself out

 

[loyaltotheend]

Flyers are not asking though.

Yeah the OP is doing his thing. Did he come back in this one to discuss his proposal? Doesn't usually.

 

[Sureves]

Who is saying he doesn't have significant value? Try reading and posting again, we'll all wait patiently for the results.

So what is Provorov’s value according to you?

 

[pmwlker]

Yeah. Way it goes when there's way less of you to begin with. But if you think you're contributing by generalizing like that, knock yourself out

Whose generalizing. We’ve all been watching the same 10 or 12 posters ruin the boards for a while now. Refusing to admit they are a huge part of the problem on the boards helps no one and has just allowed it to continue. Case in point this entire thread. Has the original poster even come back to see the shit show he started????? Didn’t think so.

 

[loyaltotheend]

Whose generalizing. We’ve all been watching the same 10 or 12 posters ruin the boards for a while now. Refusing to admit they are a huge part of the problem on the boards helps no one and has just allowed it to continue. Case in point this entire thread. Has the original poster even come back to see the **** show he started????? Didn’t think so.

Do you think I'm defending that garbage? I just posted about the OP and his garbage threads that he doesn't return to just above this.
You seem like a reasonable poster in your opinions, I'm just hoping you can cut out this "Leaf fans" nonsense since you know who you're dealing with.

 

[MarkusKetterer]

This is laughable also. You give any GM this offer and everyone of them will trade those two for Matthews. Forget what leafs fans opinions from HF Boards you want to use there's a reason from Bob McKenzie down why Matthews is viewed the way he is. Provorov is great and we will see what Patrick is in the future but both would be moved for Matthews if Philly had that opportunity.

Switch roles. Your Leafs have Provorov and Patrick. Provorov is playing with Reilly, Patrick is your #2 C. Do you still trade them for Matthews? I know I wouldn't. Now I gotta find some way to strengthen my D-core without throwing some rookie in to the fire, or using people like Carrick higher than they should be.

 

[TeamBester]

Matthews will be a top 5 center for most of his career.

Huge
Fast
Unbelievable hands
Wicked shot

No way he's ever traded for a couple 50 cent pieces.

 

[YEM]

Matthews will be a top 5 center for most of his career.

Huge
Fast
Unbelievable hands
Wicked shot

No way he's ever traded for a couple 50 cent pieces.

Patrick might turn out to be better than Matthews