Leafs Dmen vs the World

[DavePoulin4PM]

The Leafs D is a one of the worst units in the league. People actually believe that Morgan Rielly is one of the best dmen in the league . It's not tough to play defense, when you don't have to play it. Leafs are always pushing the pace. He rarely has to defend, and that's not the case in the playoffs. He is not a physical presence. He is not difficult to play against over the course of a series.. he will not wear anyone down. He is limited on the PP and makes the Leafs PP laughably predictable. I question his ability to understand situational hockey. Gardiner has shown that he is a playoff fraud, and an unreliable player. Muzzin has not gelled well with the Leafs..it sometimes takes time, regardless he has been poor. Dermott is young, and should be #6D. Hainsey is ok, but he is what he is and should be bottom pair with Dermott. Zaitsev and the other clown are not NHL caliber players.

Every single team you listed has a much better defense, with the exception of MAYBE Pittsburgh and Letang is much better than any Leafs dman. Leafs tremendous forwards and Freddy are covering up, for what is a pathetic unit.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

What is the sum of the parts for $200, Alex.

too soon dude

 

[Polaris1010]

No one watching the team can think the team looks good defensively, but I am talking team defense. So many times if teams pressure us, the entire team looks lost in our own end with Freddy standing tall. Individually, I think the D are actually quite good.

The Leafs is rather poor at breaking the cycle.

They only have two guys who are good at breaking it. One is Zaitsev, the other Muzzin. That means Zaitsev was the only one doing consistently for a long time.

Ozhiganov looks like he can do it too, but he is playing on the bottom pair where he is not expected to do the heavy lifting.

Rielly, Gardiner, Dermott, as much as I like them on the Leafs, their strength is not board work against big forwards. That alone makes the entire team being susceptible to be hemmed in their own zone. That is why it was so bad when Bozak and JVR played here. The puck would get out because of the cycle.

Hainsey can still do it if it is a double team, he needs that support. Otherwise he looks his age.

 

[diceman934]

The Leafs D is a one of the worst units in the league. People actually believe that Morgan Rielly is one of the best dmen in the league . It's not tough to play defense, when you don't have to play it. Leafs are always pushing the pace. He rarely has to defend, and that's not the case in the playoffs. He is not a physical presence. He is not difficult to play against over the course of a series.. he will not wear anyone down. He is limited on the PP and makes the Leafs PP laughably predictable. I question his ability to understand situational hockey. Gardiner has shown that he is a playoff fraud, and an unreliable player. Muzzin has not gelled well with the Leafs..it sometimes takes time, regardless he has been poor. Dermott is young, and should be #6D. Hainsey is ok, but he is what he is and should be bottom pair with Dermott. Zaitsev and the other clown are not NHL caliber players.

Every single team you listed has a much better defense, with the exception of MAYBE Pittsburgh and Letang is much better than any Leafs dman. Leafs tremendous forwards and Freddy are covering up, for what is a pathetic unit.

Lol as per usual a uninformed take.

 

[Daisy Jane]

First let me say you are correct that it is not a narrative when a person has an opinion it is exact that an opinion not a narrative.

Daisy we can shut the game down when we need to as seen by our record of winning when leading after two periods.

Last year in the Playoffs we had Polak on the right side of our D who despite being tough struggled when teams put the puck behind him and made him go back for the puck and Haisney struggled in this regard as well last playoffs. Overall our D is better if we are healthy as we are faster and younger and added Muzzin who I expect will play a lot.

The d have been utilized a lot different the last 15 games and they are improving despite us missing two good D man. Rielly and Muzzin are key as I expect they will play a lot of minutes with different partners.

We lost the series in the 7 game last year with out much in the way of contributions from Mathews and Nylander. Bozak we replaced with JT and Kadri should play the whole series this time. Our young players last year are playing a larger role and we are much faster this year which is a style that Boston struggles with. The Bruins last year really focused on shutting down Mathews line and now must shut down JT and Mathews line while still dealing With Kadri and the 4 line. We could use more screw you type players but over all I like our chances.

If the race for home ice continues right down to near the end of this season it helps us as their key players are a lot older.

we were pretty strong with that last year too though. I don't know if i am articulating my worry well enough - and to be fair, the lack of games i've seen this year because of work is more than the ones i have seen so truly - pinch of salt and all that Jazzz.

I will say - we will see. I hope you are right.

 

[IPS]

Today's NHL is tough, the league is loaded with skilled players with more and more flooding in. Nobody's gonna look perfect out there. Our GA totals are totally fine, no need to look much into a couple of horrifying performances from out backup goalie. It's our transition game that looks horrible, and there's no reason why it should. Luckily our super talented forward group can still light it up even with the horrible transition game.

 

[DarkKnight]

Can anyone explain to me why they're so convinced the Leafs have a "weak D"?

In which slot(s) do they fall short in comparison with most of the rest of the contenders here?

You were constantly saying our D was great before, we didn't need to address it. Then when we got Muzzin, a big addition, you were a fixture in the trade thread praising the great move Dubas made . I found it really bizarre to be honest, now here you are same angle. Which is it?

Our D is decent now, we are still weak as shit clearing the front of the net. Our offensive possession masks this clear weakness, it's why we look so bad when we're off, it's exposed big time.

 

[Trapper]

You were constantly saying our D was great before, we didn't need to address it. Then when we got Muzzin, a big addition, you were a fixture in the trade thread praising the great move Dubas made . I found it really bizarre to be honest, now here you are same angle. Which is it?

Our D is decent now, we are still weak as **** clearing the front of the net. Our offensive possession masks this clear weakness, it's why we look so bad when we're off, it's exposed big time.

Our D is good enough in the regular season.
You don’t make the playoffs (even with the forwards) if they aren’t good enough (plus goaltending...see Edmonton/Florida).

That being said, the playoffs are another beast entirely. Gone is the 82 games and random opponents on any given night. Gone is playing a team that has played 3 games in 4 nights or slumping. Half the league is gone. You need to be able to take things to the next level. Not just be the same as you were for 82 games.

That goes for the forwards as well. 60 + points mean nothing if you are a 3-4 point player in the playoffs. You want to keep the “stars”, then you need to be one in the playoffs as well. I’d rather a 50 point player who is a beast in the playoffs vs. a 60-70 point player who is a no show.

 

[hector morrison]

The Leafs D is a one of the worst units in the league. People actually believe that Morgan Rielly is one of the best dmen in the league . It's not tough to play defense, when you don't have to play it. Leafs are always pushing the pace. He rarely has to defend, and that's not the case in the playoffs. He is not a physical presence. He is not difficult to play against over the course of a series.. he will not wear anyone down. He is limited on the PP and makes the Leafs PP laughably predictable. I question his ability to understand situational hockey. Gardiner has shown that he is a playoff fraud, and an unreliable player. Muzzin has not gelled well with the Leafs..it sometimes takes time, regardless he has been poor. Dermott is young, and should be #6D. Hainsey is ok, but he is what he is and should be bottom pair with Dermott. Zaitsev and the other clown are not NHL caliber players.

Every single team you listed has a much better defense, with the exception of MAYBE Pittsburgh and Letang is much better than any Leafs dman. Leafs tremendous forwards and Freddy are covering up, for what is a pathetic unit.

Proving that being a hockey fan is subjective.I could disagree more ,but not much!Letang...seriously?

 

[Notsince67]

Based on the top 2 D I’d go Bos, TB, Wash, Tor, Cal, Pitt.

Some would say the Leafs D is second in the NHL...they’re always second in pursuit of the puck and a second late on their checks,

I think you misunderstood. There is a difference between being second and #2

 

[bansheebeat]

We have an ineffectual defensive system and there is only 1 RD in your top-5.

 

[zeke]

All the proof you need is the Leafs bringing in a guy like Muzzin, guy wins a cup on the top pair, good player. Started really strong and become worse and worse as time went on. I think coaching is asking the players to do things either they don't understand or can't do.

let's take a look at that proof.

First 6gms: 19:04, 3pts, +3, 55.5cf%, 53.9scf%
Next 6gms: 18:36, 2pts, +1, 49.4cf%, 46.1scf%
Last 5gms: 20:20, 5pts, +2, 52.7cf%, 60.3scf%

So he did take a dip there for a bit, but he's been better than ever in the most recent games.

(For the record, it was that 7th game where Babcock decided to split up him and Rielly.)

Or maybe:

First 9gms: 18:37, 4pts, +6, 53.3cf%, 52.9scf%
Last 8gms: 20:00, 6pts, +0, 51.7cf%, 52.6scf%

Maybe Muzzin hasn't become worse and worse, and that's actually precisely just the Leafs' Dman Microscope Effect that I'm hinting at in the OP misleading us yet again?

 

[zeke]

I don't think Leafs fans are convinced they have a "weak D". In general my perception is they think the D could use an improvement on the right side.
I suspect you are being disingenuous and looking for someone to dispute the "numbers".

I disagree. I think most leaf fans quite clearly think the leafs have a weak D.

 

[zeke]

The eye test often says a lot.

I feel Freddy makes them look far better than they are.

it's funny, though.

The Leafs D looks good on paper. Freddy's numbers look good, but not great.

But Leafs fans eye tests always, always tell them that their D sucks and their goalie is awesome.

 

[Voodoo Child]

Going from bottom to top, the Leafs absolutely have a better D core than:

1. Ottawa
2. Detroit
3. Los Angeles
4. Jersey
5. Vancouver
6. New York Rangers
7. Edmonton
8. Colorado
9. Dallas
10. Montreal
11. New York Islanders

I would then say that they're on the same level as the following teams:

1. Chicago
2. Buffalo
3. Florida
4. Arizona
5. Pittsburgh

And the following teams have a better D.

1. Anaheim
2. Minnesota
3. Philadelphia
4. St Louis
5. Vegas
6. Columbus
7. Carolina
8. Winnipeg
9. Nashville
10. Washington
11. San Jose
12. Boston
13. Calgary
14. Tampa Bay

The Leafs D is mid pack, probably about 16-18th overall - and only one of those teams has a better and deeper forward core. The Leafs also have a top-5 goalie.

But also take a look at some of those teams.

Anaheim, Minnesota and Philadelphia.

Anaheim and Philly are booking tee times, Minnesota needs to win out.

Defense isn't just the sum of its parts - we're that the case then Los Angeles would be near the top of the league, since they have Doughty, Martinez and had Muzzin for more than half the year.

Defense is a system and everyone needs to play it.

I expect a few more adds on D in the future, but the young forwards we have to get better as they learn the game.

 

[zeke]

You were constantly saying our D was great before, we didn't need to address it. Then when we got Muzzin, a big addition, you were a fixture in the trade thread praising the great move Dubas made . I found it really bizarre to be honest, now here you are same angle. Which is it?

Our Dcorps was good before, now it's excellent. And I was talking about targetting Muzzin way back at the start of the year, and am damn happy we got him.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Leafs could easily play Rielly and Dermott on the right and it wouldn't be a glaring weakness

Reilly doesn't like the right

 

[zeke]

Going from bottom to top, the Leafs absolutely have a better D core than:

1. Ottawa
2. Detroit
3. Los Angeles
4. Jersey
5. Vancouver
6. New York Rangers
7. Edmonton
8. Colorado
9. Dallas
10. Montreal
11. New York Islanders

I would then say that they're on the same level as the following teams:

1. Chicago
2. Buffalo
3. Florida
4. Arizona
5. Pittsburgh

And the following teams have a better D.

1. Anaheim
2. Minnesota
3. Philadelphia
4. St Louis
5. Vegas
6. Columbus
7. Carolina
8. Winnipeg
9. Nashville
10. Washington
11. San Jose
12. Boston
13. Calgary
14. Tampa Bay

The Leafs D is mid pack, probably about 16-18th overall - and only one of those teams has a better and deeper forward core. The Leafs also have a top-5 goalie.

But also take a look at some of those teams.

Anaheim, Minnesota and Philadelphia.

Anaheim and Philly are booking tee times, Minnesota needs to win out.

Defense isn't just the sum of its parts - we're that the case then Los Angeles would be near the top of the league, since they have Doughty, Martinez and had Muzzin for more than half the year.

Defense is a system and everyone needs to play it.

I expect a few more adds on D in the future, but the young forwards we have to get better as they learn the game.

instead of going through every one of those comparisons, I'll just pick one out of each group to ask you to explain a bit further:

1. how does chicago have a comparable group of dmen?
2. how does Anaheim have a better group of dmen?

 

[Stand Witness]

The 1-7 list looks better than the pairings put out.

Rielly - Muzzin
Gardiner - Dermott/Hainsey
Dermot/Hainsey - Zaitsev

would be a lot better. Instead we have guys still playing 1 or 2 slots higher than they should be.

 

[Pi]

I think our D is as good as it can be under the system they play. I don’t really have a problem with them at all. My problem is the system itself and the fact that Hainsey is overplayed.

I’m going to be really frustrated when Hainsey is out there against Bergeron’s line and people are wondering why their line is doing so well...

People here would view the Leafs much differently if Sparks played a bit better and got a few more points since all they look at to determine everything is standings.

 

[DarkKnight]

Our D is good enough in the regular season.
You don’t make the playoffs (even with the forwards) if they aren’t good enough (plus goaltending...see Edmonton/Florida).

That being said, the playoffs are another beast entirely. Gone is the 82 games and random opponents on any given night. Gone is playing a team that has played 3 games in 4 nights or slumping. Half the league is gone. You need to be able to take things to the next level. Not just be the same as you were for 82 games.

That goes for the forwards as well. 60 + points mean nothing if you are a 3-4 point player in the playoffs. You want to keep the “stars”, then you need to be one in the playoffs as well. I’d rather a 50 point player who is a beast in the playoffs vs. a 60-70 point player who is a no show.

Don't disagree at all, "good enough" and "decent" aren't really that different. I do believe we struggle mightily down low and clearing the front of the net. I also believe every team has flaws, this just happens to be ours. Plug in elite goaltending and elite forwards, a middling D, with a star within, is still a powerful recipe.

 

[zeke]

It's also interesting how the entire hockey world has suddenly started listening to us analytic nerds and suddenly stopped using plus/minus.....

....coincidentally, just in time to ignore Rielly/Hainsey being the best +/- pairing in hockey.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

it's funny, though.

The Leafs D looks good on paper. Freddy's numbers look good, but not great.

But Leafs fans eye tests always, always tell them that their D sucks and their goalie is awesome.

Not always true.

Toskala, Raycroft, Sparks (with the same defencemen), Gustavsson, Bernier, and Reimer were or have been called out repeatedly. No one blindly defends our goalies. Let's be honest, Leafs fans know better than anyone else when a goalie is doing well because we've seen utter trash along the way.

Freddy has kept this d core from embarrassing itself on numerous occasions.

Just look at the last game vs. Calgary

1) Czarnik robbed after both defencemen (Hainsey/Rielly) lost sight of him
2) Backlund walks down main street while Muzzin/Zaitsev are caught below the goal line causing Freddy to rob him with a glove save

These are just some of their glaring errors and I won't even mention the mistakes by Ozhi/Marincin since they were subbing in.

Like I said, I'm not sure what the symptom is (coaching, handedness, chemistry, or something else). But saying there's no problem is really brushing over the issues at hand.

 

[Morbo]

Proving that being a hockey fan is subjective.I could disagree more ,but not much!Letang...seriously?

Notice there wasn't one ounce of factual proof or evidence of any sort in that post? Just hot take after forcefed media narrative after feelgood hot take.

welcome to the modern Leaf fan.

 

[zeke]

Not always true.

Toskala, Raycroft, Sparks (with the same defencemen), Gustavsson, Bernier, and Reimer were or have been called out repeatedly. No one blindly defends our goalies. Let's be honest, Leafs fans know better than anyone else when a goalie is doing well because we've seen utter trash along the way.

Freddy has kept this d core from embarrassing itself on numerous occasions.

Insanely in retrospect, leaf fans and media praised the hell out of Raycroft and Toskala before finally being forced to admit they stunk.

Just look at the last game vs. Calgary

1) Czarnik robbed after both defencemen (Hainsey/Rielly) lost sight of him
2) Backlund walks down main street while Muzzin/Zaitsev are caught below the goal line causing Freddy to rob him with a glove save

and this I think is exactly what I'm talking about - do you really not think that every other team gives up glaring point break chances every game? that every other good goalie makes a handful of great stops every game?

and if people don't make a habit of watching other games not involving the leafs - do they really not notice that we get all sorts of those chances against our opponents, and that their goalies save most of those great chances, too?