Leafs Dmen vs the World

CabanaBoy5

Registered User
Feb 17, 2013
3,358
3,773
Woodbridge
It's called a narrative.
It's called poor coaching. Way too many defensive breakdowns and clear looks from danger zones. Freddy bails out the flaws in the defensive system constantly. Pray nothing happens to this guy before the playoffs. I don't care if we don't have home ice advantage against the Bruins, but with no Andersen, we're cooked.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,850
51,520
The defense is just comparatively weak on paper compared to the ridculously deep offense the team has. The transition game is also built around those long stretch passes that favors offensive production over stingy defensive play.

It's one of low hanging media tropes the analytics nerds like to swat at to prove how Jonah Hill/Brad Pitt smart they are.
 

hector morrison

Registered User
Apr 1, 2018
4,792
1,998
Notice there wasn't one ounce of factual proof or evidence of any sort in that post? Just hot take after forcefed media narrative after feelgood hot take.

welcome to the modern Leaf fan.
Yes. "left field' is deeper than I thought. A difference of opinion is palatable ,but that was just Shyte!
 
Oct 15, 2014
11,548
10,552
The Duke's Archives
When healthy, I actually like our personnel on the blueline. I absolutely despise our passive ways in the defensive zone, however. We bleed scoring chances, down there with bad teams like Anaheim, Chicago, Vancouver, and Ottawa, because we get hemmed in our own zone. The opponents have too much time to make plays, especially the point.
 
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Sperss1997

Registered User
Oct 29, 2015
636
312
Aarhus
It's also interesting how the entire hockey world has suddenly started listening to us analytic nerds and suddenly stopped using plus/minus.....

....coincidentally, just in time to ignore Rielly/Hainsey being the best +/- pairing in hockey.

Wearing a tin foil hat?
 

SeaOfBlue

The Passion That Unites Us All
Aug 1, 2013
35,591
16,773
In the last two seasons, $800,000 Luke Schenn has .30 assist/60 minutes rate. $4.5 million Zaitsev has a .31/60.
In this same time frame, Zaitsev only has two more primary assists then Polak. Never mind he got and extra
3.5 minutes per game more then Polak, Roman hasn't even played for the Leafs this season!!!

The Nikita Zaitsev Contract Is Bad And The Leafs Will Probably Regret Signing It

It's great that production is the most important quality for defensemen to have right?
 

SeaOfBlue

The Passion That Unites Us All
Aug 1, 2013
35,591
16,773
A solid pack of individuals hate Gardiner to no end and I don't know why.
That hate should be directed towards Zaitsev.

No, Gardiner's mistakes are 100% his own... And that doesn't even include the mistakes that he forces other players on our team to make (including Zaitsev).

Zaitsev has a lot more haters than Gardiner. He deserves them far less than the haters Gardiner gets.
 

meefer

Registered User
Jun 9, 2015
4,682
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Bangkok
No, Gardiner's mistakes are 100% his own... And that doesn't even include the mistakes that he forces other players on our team to make (including Zaitsev).

Zaitsev has a lot more haters than Gardiner. He deserves them far less than the haters Gardiner gets.

I don't understand why a fan would hate any player on the team they cheer for. We can debate the quality of the player, but to hate them? Why? The player is who he is, has the talent level he has and, unless their intent is to fall out of the league, is most likely trying their best to help the team. A fan may wish there were better options, may be disappointed in the performance, but to hate requires a level of malice I don't get. Just my two cents, not a comment on your comment, just the use of that word.
 

DavePoulin4PM

2x NHL all star, Selke winner, NHL exec
Nov 6, 2017
1,570
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I don't understand why a fan would hate any player on the team they cheer for. We can debate the quality of the player, but to hate them? Why? The player is who he is, has the talent level he has and, unless their intent is to fall out of the league, is most likely trying their best to help the team. A fan may wish there were better options, may be disappointed in the performance, but to hate requires a level of malice I don't get. Just my two cents, not a comment on your comment, just the use of that word.

This is a hockey message board. Stick to hockey. No one needs you to be their moral compass.
 

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
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Skövde, Sweden
No, Gardiner's mistakes are 100% his own... And that doesn't even include the mistakes that he forces other players on our team to make (including Zaitsev).

Zaitsev has a lot more haters than Gardiner. He deserves them far less than the haters Gardiner gets.
So you think Zaitsev is better than Gardiner?
 

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
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Skövde, Sweden
53454906_10161490886115029_1693080909856636928_n.jpg
I'd probably rank them according to depth chart like this:
4361752
1267534
3715426
3654127
1356274
1435627
7146235
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

That's by just winging it. I'd likely change things around quite a bit if I did a bit of research. People think we are bad mainly because our coach wants RHD at RD and that disrupts how our pairings look, and because quite a few of our d-men are strong offensively. The time when you want d-men to think defense first at all costs is long gone.
 

RLF

Registered User
May 5, 2014
3,303
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53454906_10161490886115029_1693080909856636928_n.jpg





Can anyone explain to me why they're so convinced the Leafs have a "weak D"?

In which slot(s) do they fall short in comparison with most of the rest of the contenders here?

Just my opinion, but to me, most of those D'd are tougher to play against and do a much better job of boxing out infront of their net and breaking down cycles. We skate well, move the puck well, but have trouble on the battle side of the game.
 
Oct 15, 2014
11,548
10,552
The Duke's Archives
Just my opinion, but to me, most of those D'd are tougher to play against and do a much better job of boxing out infront of their net and breaking down cycles. We skate well, move the puck well, but have trouble on the battle side of the game.

Peters and Cassidy have their players hounding the puck carrier in the defensive zone, eliminating time and space. Seems like our 5 man unit collapses and takes away the middle, leaving everything on the perimeter wide open. The problem is that the cycle game is prolonged, which leads to fatigue and higher quality chances against.
 
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hfman

Registered User
Oct 30, 2013
3,074
1,380
I'd probably rank them according to depth chart like this:
4361752
1267534
3715426
3654127
1356274
1435627
7146235
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
That's by just winging it. I'd likely change things around quite a bit if I did a bit of research. People think we are bad mainly because our coach wants RHD at RD and that disrupts how our pairings look, and because quite a few of our d-men are strong offensively. The time when you want d-men to think defense first at all costs is long gone.

That's a nice little Suduko grid you drew up there. I'll play it later.

but what about the bar graphs? You forgot the bar graphs.

Oh and the pie chart. Where's the pie chart?
 

RLF

Registered User
May 5, 2014
3,303
890
Peters and Cassidy have their players hounding the puck carrier in the defensive zone, eliminating time and space. Seems like our 5 man unit collapses and takes away the middle, leaving everything on the perimeter wide open. The problem is that the cycle game is prolonged, which leads to fatigue and higher quality chances against.

For sure part is system, but I also see us lose the one on one battles too often which allows that cycle to continue. We play the puck too often in battles instead of pinning the man and stopping his movement. Stop his progress and because we collapse(too deep in my opinion), we should have the support to win the puck scramble. Collapsing is most effective if you stop the movement, it is exposed when you allow the other team to move with the puck and use the points.
 

razkaz

Registered User
Oct 3, 2013
1,256
883
Can anyone tell me why we've never seen the following combinations?

Rielly-Gardiner
Muzzin-Dermott
Hainsey-Zaitsev
 

Intact

Registered User
Feb 25, 2010
1,825
178
Mississauga ON
I'm really interested in what Gardiner haters have to say since we got Muzzin. Does anyone watch the games and think he isnt even close to as good as Muzzin? Please tell me your arguments on how Muzzin sucks too and he cant play a ton of minutes on a dominant cup winning team
 

Ryan Michaels

Registered User
Mar 21, 2017
4,275
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Can anyone explain to me why they're so convinced the Leafs have a "weak D"?

In which slot(s) do they fall short in comparison with most of the rest of the contenders here?

I'm not being glib here but I want to know why you think Tampa has 20 points on the Leafs in the standings. Because any time you've done a player by player comparison you seem to be suggesting they're pretty much a wash. I don't have a problem with the personnel but how they play is very concerning. As others have pointed out I think its telling that Muzzin has gotten worse the longer he's been here and the more accustomed he's grown to the system, also I wish he was actually deployed as the #2 D.

I don't trust the system for holding the lead, I know, I know, we are SO great at holding leads, I think what's been forgotten is that last year's team was 31-5-1 leading after 2. And when they faced the ultimate high pressure situation they got utterly embarrassed. So for me its not so much a player to player comparison around the league but more of team defence as a whole, and the shell that we go into with the lead. Having said that, I definitely disagree with your suggestion that Tampa and Toronto's defence is a wash, but I want to hear your explanation before getting into that.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
29,786
21,962
I'm not being glib here but I want to know why you think Tampa has 20 points on the Leafs in the standings. Because any time you've done a player by player comparison you seem to be suggesting they're pretty much a wash. I don't have a problem with the personnel but how they play is very concerning. As others have pointed out I think its telling that Muzzin has gotten worse the longer he's been here and the more accustomed he's grown to the system, also I wish he was actually deployed as the #2 D.

I don't trust the system for holding the lead, I know, I know, we are SO great at holding leads, I think what's been forgotten is that last year's team was 31-5-1 leading after 2. And when they faced the ultimate high pressure situation they got utterly embarrassed. So for me its not so much a player to player comparison around the league but more of team defence as a whole, and the shell that we go into with the lead. Having said that, I definitely disagree with your suggestion that Tampa and Toronto's defence is a wash, but I want to hear your explanation before getting into that.

I could be wrong but I think what Zeke has shown with the numbers before is that at even strength, we've been roughly equal with TB this season. Where they've utterly and completely dominated us is on special teams, they've also had slightly better goaltending. As the saying goes, in playoffs you win with special teams and goaltending so if that's what it does come down to, basically we're screwed. Assuming of course that we happen to play TB at some point ...
 
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Ziggdiezan

Registered User
Apr 10, 2015
10,847
5,676
Muzzin as our second best dmen is worrying
I would say Gardiner is a better player overall and the leafs 2nd best defender. Very different players but I think Gardiner makes more of a positive impact
 

Bomber0104

Registered User
Apr 8, 2007
15,021
6,835
Burlington
I'm not being glib here but I want to know why you think Tampa has 20 points on the Leafs in the standings. Because any time you've done a player by player comparison you seem to be suggesting they're pretty much a wash. I don't have a problem with the personnel but how they play is very concerning. As others have pointed out I think its telling that Muzzin has gotten worse the longer he's been here and the more accustomed he's grown to the system, also I wish he was actually deployed as the #2 D.

I don't trust the system for holding the lead, I know, I know, we are SO great at holding leads, I think what's been forgotten is that last year's team was 31-5-1 leading after 2. And when they faced the ultimate high pressure situation they got utterly embarrassed. So for me its not so much a player to player comparison around the league but more of team defence as a whole, and the shell that we go into with the lead. Having said that, I definitely disagree with your suggestion that Tampa and Toronto's defence is a wash, but I want to hear your explanation before getting into that.

Basically take whatever zeke is saying about the Leafs and their players, and then dial it back at least 2 or 3 notches. Then you'll probably arrive at a proper appraisal.

Stats were once used to "prove" Bozak was as good as Patrice Bergeron.
 

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