Speculation: Leafs d-man shopping list this summer..

[Menzinger]

This thread is taking a weird turn, Zaitsev nor Gardiner are bottom pairing guys, at least not supported by any tangible metrics.

 

[The CyNick]

Gardiner has passed Rielly by a fairly wide margin.

The issue we have is we don't currently have any effective shutdown D men who can handle the responsibility of playing top pair minutes. The good news is the league is moving further and further away from the idea of a shutdown D. What you really want in today's game is someone who can think quickly, make a first pass to the forwards or their D partner, and be strong enough to battle in front of the net for loose pucks.

Gardiner is the best we currently have. Rielly has some tools that would make you think he could be good, but so far he's failed to put it together. You hope more Babcock love will steer him in the right direction. Zaitsev I'm still not sure on. Right now, I say he's way overrated, but he did just have his first year in the NHL, so I'll cut him some slack. Contract wise, we likely don't have a ton of money to go after big ticket D, so we have to hope help comes internally or in a money in, money out trade scenario.

My hope is we continue to add guys that are probably best suited as 4-5s, but by having a strong group of six, you don't need to rely on any one guy to be a 30 minute man. It's easier to find 4-5 guys who can play 18-19 minutes a game, vs one or two who play more than 25+.

 

[seventieslord]

This thread is taking a weird turn, Zaitsev nor Gardiner are bottom pairing guys, at least not supported by any tangible metrics.

Yeah. I mean, if we have them on the bottom pairing, that's awesome, because it means we're winning the cup. It's just not realistic that we can actually achieve that, though.

 

[Mr Hockey]

Gardiner has passed Rielly by a fairly wide margin.

The issue we have is we don't currently have any effective shutdown D men who can handle the responsibility of playing top pair minutes. The good news is the league is moving further and further away from the idea of a shutdown D. What you really want in today's game is someone who can think quickly, make a first pass to the forwards or their D partner, and be strong enough to battle in front of the net for loose pucks.

Gardiner is the best we currently have. Rielly has some tools that would make you think he could be good, but so far he's failed to put it together. You hope more Babcock love will steer him in the right direction. Zaitsev I'm still not sure on. Right now, I say he's way overrated, but he did just have his first year in the NHL, so I'll cut him some slack. Contact wise, we likely don't have a ton of money to go after big ticket D, so we have to hope help comes internally or in a money in, money out trade scenario.

My hope is we continue to add guys that are probably best suited as 4-5s, but by having a strong group of six, you don't need to rely on any one guy to be a 30 minute man. It's easier to find 4-5 guys who can play 18-19 minutes a game, vs one or two who play more than 25+.

Gardiner has passed Rielly by a fairly wide margin?? ... Rielly plays all situations against top lines, Gardiner not so much, thinks about that for a bit

 

[4thline]

Yeah. I mean, if we have them on the bottom pairing, that's awesome, because it means we're winning the cup. It's just not realistic that we can actually achieve that, though.

Depends on how you classify lines/ the optics of it. I mean by usage if Gardiner was a rookie the Gardiner-Carrick pairing would have almost certainly been classified our 3rd pair for most of the year, two young guys getting heavily sheltered offensive minutes.

It's the same thing with forward lines, do we classify by offensive output or usage profile/ defensive responsibility?

were we

 

[The CyNick]

Gardiner has passed Rielly by a fairly wide margin?? ... Rielly plays all situations against top lines, Gardiner not so much, thinks about that for a bit

Ah, that page of the playbook. Heard it before. Maybe bring something new to the debate. I get it, Rielly played against the 72 Canadiens every night, and Gardiner played against the Ice Breakers beer league team out of Newmarket that went 1-19 in 2010.

Gards was still better.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Gardiner has passed Rielly by a fairly wide margin?? ... Rielly plays all situations against top lines, Gardiner not so much, thinks about that for a bit

Gardiner has been seeing top minutes ever Rielly was off with an injury. By the time we got to the playoffs, Gardiner's minutes were way too high to be considered "sheltered".

Gardiner is actually an even-strength beast.

 

[RayNibbs]

Gardiner has been seeing top minutes ever Rielly was off with an injury. By the time we got to the playoffs, Gardiner's minutes were way too high to be considered "sheltered".

Gardiner is actually an even-strength beast.

Oh look, you actually watch the team!

 

[Trapper]

Is this a Gardiner vs. Rielly thread or a thread on possible D the Leafs could add this summer?

 

[I am I]

Contract wise, we likely don't have a ton of money to go after big ticket D, so we have to hope help comes internally or in a money in, money out trade scenario.

About $6.5M actually. That would be $20M for the top 4 defenders which seems about right. The final four this year are all around that mark. Pittsburgh is the lowest at around $17M or so.

 

[rosscow]

Ah, that page of the playbook. Heard it before. Maybe bring something new to the debate. I get it, Rielly played against the 72 Canadiens every night, and Gardiner played against the Ice Breakers beer league team out of Newmarket that went 1-19 in 2010.

Gards was still better.

I was on that ICE breaker Newmarket beer league team. If we got to play against Gardiner most night we would have easily been 3-17.

 

[The CyNick]

About $6.5M actually. That would be $20M for the top 4 defenders which seems about right. The final four this year are all around that mark. Pittsburgh is the lowest at around $17M or so.

All depends how much we have to invest or are willing to invest in our forward group. My point is we're unlikely to land a top tier D via free agency. Most successful teams have key players throughout the lineup playing above their contract. That's why we need a young kid to rise up and be effective in a top 4 spot.

 

[nuck]

Ah, that page of the playbook. Heard it before. Maybe bring something new to the debate. I get it, Rielly played against the 72 Canadiens every night, and Gardiner played against the Ice Breakers beer league team out of Newmarket that went 1-19 in 2010.

Gards was still better.

He had the better regular season but at Rielly's age Gardiner was in the AHL. Gards wasn't better last year or the year before either. He has raised the bar this season and I hope he has turned a corner, but I think you are a bit too hard on Rielly. This was the first regular season he hasn't improved. I think he will have a stronger season next year.

 

[The CyNick]

He had the better regular season but at Rielly's age Gardiner was in the AHL. Gards wasn't better last year or the year before either. He has raised the bar this season and I hope he has turned a corner, but I think you are a bit too hard on Rielly. This was the first regular season he hasn't improved. I think he will have a stronger season next year.

I hope you're right.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Oh look, you actually watch the team!

You'd reckon that watching the team should be a major part of assessing any player. It's almost as if elite defenseman are supposed to be these perfect, no-goal-conceding demi-human.

They're not.

I hope you're right.

What we tend to forget is that Rielly is a highly intelligent defenseman in an athletic freaks body. There was sort of an expectation last season for Rielly to represent more of the muscle and that meant a de-emphasis away from that that elite skating playing style.

Morgan isn't an orthodox puck mover. He's more of a puck rusher in the form of Karlsson, Keith, etc in that he thrives in bringing the puck up the ice. That, however, isn't a playing style that one usually perfects at his age. Keith was around 25 years of age when he started to figure it out and that's with Brian Campbell insulating him as clear the #1D.

 

[A1LeafNation]

LA Anaheim Nashville Columbus would be good teams to Target as they all have excess dmen and need some scoring help.

 

[seventieslord]

Depends on how you classify lines/ the optics of it. I mean by usage if Gardiner was a rookie the Gardiner-Carrick pairing would have almost certainly been classified our 3rd pair for most of the year, two young guys getting heavily sheltered offensive minutes.

It's the same thing with forward lines, do we classify by offensive output or usage profile/ defensive responsibility?

were we

by usage, obviously, though output tends to follow the same pattern.

I'm saying if we had four better defensemen than Gardiner and it meant that we only needed to use him for 18 minutes a game, we'd be a stanley cup winning team.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

by usage, obviously, though output tends to follow the same pattern.

I'm saying if we had four better defensemen than Gardiner and it meant that we only needed to use him for 18 minutes a game, we'd be a stanley cup winning team.

Keep note that it is more difficult to shelter a defenseman than forwards as they have much higher TOI. Outside of Bozak's line, every other line was either shutting down top lines or taking on opposing team's shut down lines.

Moreover, the Gardiner - Carrick pairing did not spend all their TOI with the sheltered scoring line either. Both spent a significant amount of time on the defensive end as it was quite clear that Hunwick and Polak were finding it difficult to drive puck possession.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Is this a Gardiner vs. Rielly thread or a thread on possible D the Leafs could add this summer?

I still find it strange that our fans are so split on those two. They're both good players, get over it.

 

[Bluelines]

The question for me is who are these guys? Where did they come from and how much do they make?
Are we going to draft and develop this before Gardiner's deal expires?

See kiddies there is at least one poster who can respond in an adult manner. Good questions trapper.

I would assume we would acquire these through trade, development, draft and/or UFA markets.

Maybe we trade Jake and get a prospect that we develop that takes his place.

 

[Bluelines]

Ok, but what happens when they need new contracts?

Rielly is signed for 5 more years, Zaitsev is signed for 7 more years, Gardiner has 2 more left but I would think they'll likely extend him at very least until they know more about Dermott, Rosen and Borgmann.

Bieska and Stoner have 1 more season left which is why it's doable this season and I doubt very much their replacements will have an combined cap hit of over $7m when Montour, Theodore and Manson all needs new contracts next summer.

Same thing Chicago has done, identify who are the core players and traded and acquire Euro UFA's.

 

[Bluelines]

Byfuglien was a forward.

He played both positions.

 

[Bluelines]

Ah, that page of the playbook. Heard it before. Maybe bring something new to the debate. I get it, Rielly played against the 72 Canadiens every night, and Gardiner played against the Ice Breakers beer league team out of Newmarket that went 1-19 in 2010.

Gards was still better.

Yes you've heard it before but when you fail to listen, that is on you.

 

[Nithoniniel]

It would also be really cool if we could replace Gardiner with Karlsson, he could really feast on the opposition from those third pairing minutes!

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I'd like to bring Travis Harmonica, you want to talk about a perfect fit there it is , he had injury issues this year but doesn't Generally have them

and he's 26 perfect age for the team