Post-Game Talk: Leafs beat the Bruins and the Refs

[Gallagbi]

I'm not discussing Pastrnak's contract negotiations, I'm discussing Nylander's contract negotiations....

In no way does it make sense to suggest a 20 goal, 61 point winger is as good as a 35 goal, 80 point winger.

How can you even debate this?

Even Pastrnak's 20 year old season was better than Nylander's 20 or 21 year old season..... it was very clear who the better player was....

But like I said, they were horrible comparables. Only way you can suggest their numbers are similar is when you completely disregard age and quality of teammates... which is completely absurd... (Pastrnak's first two seasons were on the 3rd/4th line)

Nylander's camp would've been looking at Pasta's pre-signing numbers since those are the comparables. Not the 80 point season

 

[david999]

Geez, I thought blaming Babcock for WM88's inconsistent efforts was over. New season, new number, same excuses.

IMO I agree that Nylander is an extremely talented player.......and I'll leave it at that.

Babcock from day one has never been a fan of Nylander, never. He doesn’t like the fact Nylander isn’t a grinder. That’s not his game. Skating, puck handling, zone entry, vision on the ice, all things he is good at. I can’t remember the last time he got a chance to play anywhere near top minutes in a game, something he would likely get under any modern day thinking coach. Don’t forget that Matthews also was getting the same treatment because he isn’t a “grinder”, but somebody likely stepped in as witnessed by Babcock’s clandestine trips to Arizona the last two years.

 

[Trapper]

Forget the past, it is what have you done for me lately and Nylander was paid to do what he claimed he could but is proving he can't. Pasta is outperforming his contract while Willie, is trending in the opposite direction.

Unless things change throughout the season it’s not something we can afford.
Hyman will be back soon to add some edge along with Moore and Kerfoot.
We have guys like Timo and Soupy gaining experience with players like Bracco and Korshkov in the minors. Plus Robertson who looks like a solid pick. Marner signed and Johnsson pacing Willy at 3 million.

we need the money for defense and a solid Halak type backup for Andersen. Not the 700K Walmart special. That will cost 1.5-2 mil.

 

[hector morrison]

But his arm immediately flew up when Backes hit Andy...

I thought that should’ve been the only penalty. The Marincin head grab is honestly pretty standard and a lot more than that was let go from Toronto’s pov.

Have not seen one single act of aggression this year from any Leaf Dman around the crease until Marincin decided (unbelievably) that enough was enough...It's as if he figured that the refs have not called any player this year for 'bumping' Fred accidentally or otherwise,so he took the initiative. Best thing I've seen him do as a Leaf! The arm up could of been for a Leaf penalty,no way you play those odds against Boston. Refs love those guys!

 

[MyBudJT]

Nylander's camp would've been looking at Pasta's pre-signing numbers since those are the comparables. Not the 80 point season

1) Pastrnak's ELC 3 >>> Nylander's ELC 2 or ELC 3
2) Its quite silly for a player who played 20-22 YO to compare himself to a player that played at 18-20... That fact that they're numbers were still close is a little alarming.

 

[Legion34]

I'm not discussing Pastrnak's contract negotiations, I'm discussing Nylander's contract negotiations....

In no way does it make sense to suggest a 20 goal, 61 point winger is as good as a 35 goal, 80 point winger.

How can you even debate this?

Even Pastrnak's 20 year old season was better than Nylander's 20 or 21 year old season..... it was very clear who the better player was....

But like I said, they were horrible comparables. Only way you can suggest their numbers are similar is when you completely disregard age and quality of teammates... which is completely absurd... (Pastrnak's first two seasons were on the 3rd/4th line)

Huh?

You compare the players AT THE TIME of the contract.

At the time of the contracts. They had very similar
Stats. That would lead them to have similar contracts. They both had very similar numbers to other players. Who ALL got between 8.25-9.25% AAV.

Again. Like I said. Look at quality of teammates. Pasta was a 45-50pt player until he got on the best line in the league.

Coincidence?

Nylander spent the first 20 games of his career playing on a tanking team. He spent about 50 games on the 3-4th line too.

He got PP2. Time. He had back to back 60 pt seasons.

Pasta is absolutely making the most of his time. But to look at numbers post contract and think they have any weight in other players
contract negotiations is nuts.

Unless you think that it makes sense to compare every superstar who has had a slow start in contract negotiations.

“Thornton got like 8 pts in his rookie year..... look at him at 25”. Pay me like a hall of famer.

It works both ways.

 

[Gallagbi]

1) Pastrnak's ELC 3 >>> Nylander's ELC 2 or ELC 3
2) Its quite silly for a player who played 20-22 YO to compare himself to a player that played at 18-20... That fact that they're numbers were still close is a little alarming.

Pasta hasd a higher 3rd year, not as good second year. His bump in production also came from going to the top line in hockey.
It's the common practice in the NHL, you base your comparables on similar players of similar ages and their numbers pre-signing. Since you don't know what will happen AFTER signing, those are rarely/never used.

 

[MyBudJT]

Huh?

You compare the players AT THE TIME of the contract.

At the time of the contracts. They had very similar
Stats. That would lead them to have similar contracts. They both had very similar numbers to other players. Who ALL got between 8.25-9.25% AAV.

Again. Like I said. Look at quality of teammates. Pasta was a 45-50pt player until he got on the best line in the league.

Coincidence?

Nylander spent the first 20 games of his career playing on a tanking team. He spent about 50 games on the 3-4th line too.

He got PP2. Time. He had back to back 60 pt seasons.

Pasta is absolutely making the most of his time. But to look at numbers post contract and think they have any weight in other players
contract negotiations is nuts.

Unless you think that it makes sense to compare every superstar who has had a slow start in contract negotiations.

“Thornton got like 8 pts in his rookie year..... look at him at 25”. Pay me like a hall of famer.

It works both ways.

You're clearly not listening to what I'm saying.... for the fourth time... it makes NO SENSE to compare Pastrnak's 18 and 19 YO seasons to Nylanders 20 and 21 YO seasons....

 

[PaulD]

Nylander's camp would've been looking at Pasta's pre-signing numbers since those are the comparables. Not the 80 point season

We all know who the better players is..........its not even close.

Team wise Pastas contract is the better one.

Individual wise Nylanders contract is the better one.

 

[Joey Hoser]

ok. I refused to be surprised though.

Huh? Surprised about what?

when y’all said you didn’t follow hockey outside of the Leafs I was a little surprised at first but it’s quite amazing that it’s true.

Huh? Who is "y'all"? I didn't say that. And what does that have to do with what we are talking about?

Are you still drunk from last night?

 

[Gallagbi]

You're clearly not listening to what I'm saying.... for the fourth time... it makes NO SENSE to compare Pastrnak's 18 and 19 YO seasons to Nylanders 20 and 21 YO seasons....

You can say it all you want, but it doesn't make it true.

 

[MyBudJT]

You can say it all you want, but it doesn't make it true.

 

[PaulD]

Have not seen one single act of aggression this year from any Leaf Dman around the crease until Marincin decided (unbelievably) that enough was enough...It's as if he figured that the refs have not called any player this year for 'bumping' Fred accidentally or otherwise,so he took the initiative. Best thing I've seen him do as a Leaf! The arm up could of been for a Leaf penalty,no way you play those odds against Boston. Refs love those guys!

Yea, the refs love Brad Marchand. Not a ref in the league likes that rat.

 

[ULF_55]

Bruins 3 goals, wide open, uncovered players giving Andersen no chance whatsoever.

Leafs 4 goals, a deflection of the chests of a Bruins defender, a great individual play by Timashov, a scramble goal by Kerfoot while he was being covered, a deflection off Rielly in 3on3 skills competition.

If Leafs could play good defense in their own zone this game would have been easy for the Leafs.

 

[Legion34]

You're clearly not listening to what I'm saying.... for the fourth time... it makes NO SENSE to compare Pastrnak's 18 and 19 YO seasons to Nylanders 20 and 21 YO seasons....

In contract negotiations it absolutely does.

Because THATS WHEN HE PLAYED.

That’s how it works. You look at the ELC goals. Points. PPG. Etc and compare them to recent players and historical players.

Or do you think point can’t be compared to marner. Because he is older?

 

[PaulD]

On an unrelated note...

How in the world did the NHL approve a schedule that gives us 10 back-to-backs by the new year....

maybe they will have the easiest schedule in the league in March and April leading up to play offs that way...........again.

 

[hector morrison]

Yea, the refs love Brad Marchand. Not a ref in the league likes that rat.

Maybe explain the Chara phenomenon!

 

[egd27]

Yea, the refs love Brad Marchand. Not a ref in the league likes that rat.

Then why does he seem to get away with all of his antics?

 

[PaulD]

Maybe explain the Chara phenomenon!

Maybe explain game 7 last season.

Bruins powerplay was killing the leafs in first six games.

In game 7 the refs called the leafs for ....count'em. ZERO penalties.

Only game in al four rounds of last years play offs where a team was not given a single powerplay.

Yea, the refs love them Bruins.

 

[david999]

Nylander is playing with one of the best centers in the league, and the 3rd highest paid forward.... and you're complaining that the coach isn't putting him in the propper situation to succeed...

Do you not see the issue with this premise...?

You do realize Nylander isn’t getting top line minutes, even though he is the 4th highest paid forward? Matthews needs someone like Nylander as well, to skate the puck into the offensive zone. My beef is that Babcock would always prefer to put players he doesn’t like, in positions to fail rather than succeed, and always defaults to a grinder versus skill.

 

[PaulD]

You do realize Nylander isn’t getting top line minutes, even though he is the 4th highest paid forward? Matthews needs someone like Nylander as well, to skate the puck into the offensive zone. My beef is that Babcock would always prefer to put players he doesn’t like, in positions to fail rather than succeed, and always defaults to a grinder versus skill.

All that tells me is he is higher on the getting paid list than he should be.

He out and out stunk last season...and play offs.

Many players go their entire careers without a season that bad.

 

[Nithoniniel]

In contract negotiations it absolutely does.

Because THATS WHEN HE PLAYED.

That’s how it works. You look at the ELC goals. Points. PPG. Etc and compare them to recent players and historical players.

Or do you think point can’t be compared to marner. Because he is older?

If you dig into RFA contracts, you'll quickly notice that age differences doesn't really impact AAV. If you compare who is the better prospect/player, then you absolutely compare based on age. If you compare contracts, it doesn't really factor into it. RFA contracts tend to be based on PPG, weighed towards recency but with a premium on sample size, position, and goalscoring.

Belief doesn't really enter into it. One might think contracts should be given out differently, but that doesn't mean that they are.

 

[On-the-Fly]

You do realize Nylander isn’t getting top line minutes, even though he is the 4th highest paid forward? Matthews needs someone like Nylander as well, to skate the puck into the offensive zone. My beef is that Babcock would always prefer to put players he doesn’t like, in positions to fail rather than succeed, and always defaults to a grinder versus skill.

I commented in game that I was looking forward to the explanation of why Matthews switched between Marner and Nylander this game.

Babcock said it was Nylander when it was an o zone start, and if line match up wasn't necessary. Mitch in all other cases and Gauthier line for a d zone matchup.

He also said they had decided this over the last two days.

Nylander isnt trusted defensively and this hasnt changed from day 1. At this point it is a legit question of whether it ever will change. Or if it ever can.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Nylander isnt trusted defensively and this hasnt changed from day 1. At this point it is a legit question of whether it ever will change. Or if it ever can.

Babcock will likely never trust him. It's well documented for about as long as he's coached in the league that he doesn't easily change opinions on players in this regard.

 

[PromisedLand]

I commented in game that I was looking forward to the explanation of why Matthews switched between Marner and Nylander this game.

Babcock said it was Nylander when it was an o zone start, and if line match up wasn't necessary. Mitch in all other cases and Gauthier line for a d zone matchup.

He also said they had decided this over the last two days.

Nylander isnt trusted defensively and this hasnt changed from day 1. At this point it is a legit question of whether it ever will change. Or if it ever can.

The only way for it to change is for Willy to show commitment defensively but so far I haven’t seen him do that.

Nylander is a skilled player but his play without the puck makes me lose my mind

The worst part of all of this is that it isn’t like Willy isn’t capable of playing well defensively, if he feels like it he plays very well defensively and backchecks like a man possessed but those are very few and far between

This is what makes me mad at Willy. It’s not like he isn’t capable of playing that game - he is - but more often than not he just plays lazy without the puck.

That said, yesterday I saw Willy compete on the boards in the O zone with 2 bruins on him double teaming him but he still came out with the puck.

So there is hope yet. Only thing is that Willy needs to commit to a 200 foot game which I know he is well capable of but he needs to make a decision to play that game.

I think with time he might realize that if he plays well defensively that means he has the puck more which means higher probability of putting up points