Confirmed with Link: Leafs add Hayley Wickenheiser, Noelle Needham and Victor Carneiro to front office

[Notsince67]

We have a progressive front office, and it bodes well for our future.

Yuk. Not sure if I like the sound of that. I just prefer to think they were hired because they were good.

 

[LeafsMonster]

Love it. Wickenheiser is a legend.

 

[IBeL34f]

Yuk. Not sure if I like the sound of that. I just prefer to think they were hired because they were good.

Progressive people likely have a broader definition of what "good" means - Some people here would've kept Lou, or hired Hunter over Dubas, because they believe experience inherently makes someone good (or perhaps that inexperience inherently makes someone less good).

That we'll explore any avenue in search of good people is, in itself, a fairly progressive approach when you consider how much of an old boys' club the NHL has been throughout its history. I understand the benefits of having people from different backgrounds on board who may view things from a different perspective, and am happy that we're turning over every possible stone when it comes to identifying talent.

 

[ACC1224]

Progressive people likely have a broader definition of what "good" means - Some people here would've kept Lou, or hired Hunter over Dubas, because they believe experience inherently makes someone good (or perhaps that inexperience inherently makes someone less good).

That we'll explore any avenue in search of good people is, in itself, a fairly progressive approach when you consider how much of an old boys' club the NHL has been throughout its history. I understand the benefits of having people from different backgrounds on board who may view things from a different perspective, and am happy that we're turning over every possible stone when it comes to identifying talent.

As long as they hiring women because they are the best fit for the job and not just to fill some diversity quota I'm good with it.

 

[IBeL34f]

As long as they hiring women because they are the best fit for the job and not just to fill some diversity quota I'm good with it.

It'll be exciting when there are enough women and people of colour in lofty NHL head-office positions that the notion of "diversity hires" and "quotas" aren't even brought up at all when the announcement of a female hire is made.

 

[Notsince67]

Progressive people likely have a broader definition of what "good" means - Some people here would've kept Lou, or hired Hunter over Dubas, because they believe experience inherently makes someone good (or perhaps that inexperience inherently makes someone less good).

That we'll explore any avenue in search of good people is, in itself, a fairly progressive approach when you consider how much of an old boys' club the NHL has been throughout its history. I understand the benefits of having people from different backgrounds on board who may view things from a different perspective, and am happy that we're turning over every possible stone when it comes to identifying talent.

I'm not sure why you would think that a person of a different gender would have a different perspective on how a sport is played opposed to a different "person". There are differences in genders for sure but there is more in common than is different.
The issue that I have with the term progressive is that it attempts to replace one social hierarchy ("old mens club") with another. Competence hierarchies should be the focus. IMO, saying the HW was hired in the interest of progressive pursuit, just undermines what she has accomplished.

 

[MyBudJT]

As long as they hiring women because they are the best fit for the job and not just to fill some diversity quota I'm good with it.

Exactly, you don’t fight discrimination with discrimination...

It'll be exciting when there are enough women and people of colour in lofty NHL head-office positions that the notion of "diversity hires" and "quotas" aren't even brought up at all when the announcement of a female hire is made.

But again, this shouldn’t be a quota type thing... how much is ‘enough’?

People should be treated like people, and most qualified people should get jobs. There shouldn’t be any more to it...

 

[SprDaVE]

These hires were based on merit, resume and expertise. I don't know why it has to turn into something more than that.

Leafs wrote a nice blurb about each hire and one of them is probably the most respected hockey player in the history of the game put in a role that will hopefully benefit other young players coming through the ranks.

 

[67Cup]

The mention of the word “progressive” is an unfortunate and unnecessary red herring here. To the best of my knowledge, there are no diversity quotas in hockey and little to no pressure to hire more women. Why would anyone want to assume that these hires are the result of some kind of “progressive” agenda to promote women over supposedly more qualified men? Considering their track records, it looks as if these hires know a lot about hockey. Full stop.

And, of course, experience is a good thing. But what is better is the capacity to learn from experience. Some people have forty years of experience. Others have one year of experience forty times, because they never learn from it. If the Leafs have reason to believe these hires have that precious capacity to learn from experience, I’m happy.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Toronto now has two guys scouting Central Ontario/GTA (we went from London guys to SSM guys in that area). Toronto has also now increased their presence in Minnesota and the rest of the Midwest, which besides Martino covering Chicago, was previously ignored by our scouting staff (in terms of having a presence there). Now the Leafs have two scouts to look at the High Schools, Colleges and the USHL in that area.

Seems like Dubas has done a good job covering all of the bases and then some. Seems like the only place he has not specifically covered with a scout is Northern Ontario (which does not need to be covered, and even then Dubas probably covers it himself) and the Maritimes (which probably just get covered by Charbonneau).

 

[willmma]

Robidas has one task. Figure out what to do with Marleau's cap hit after this season

 

[SeaOfBlue]

The mention of the word “progressive” is an unfortunate and unnecessary red herring here. To the best of my knowledge, there are no diversity quotas in hockey and little to no pressure to hire more women. Why would anyone want to assume that these hires are the result of some kind of “progressive” agenda to promote women over supposedly more qualified men? Considering their track records, it looks as if these hires know a lot about hockey. Full stop.

And, of course, experience is a good thing. But what is better is the capacity to learn from experience. Some people have forty years of experience. Others have one year of experience forty times, because they never learn from it. If the Leafs have reason to believe these hires have that precious capacity to learn from experience, I’m happy.

There are probably a bunch of men who can fill an assistant Player Development Role, but how many of them are similar to arguably the best women's hockey player ever? When we are talking about a position that really is not even that high up (she has two direct superiors in his department) and she is more than fully qualified to perform. I do not think we can really point to this being a "diversity in the workplace" type hire, not that it would be a bad thing.

 

[IBeL34f]

Exactly, you don’t fight discrimination with discrimination...



But again, this shouldn’t be a quota type thing... how much is ‘enough’?

People should be treated like people, and most qualified people should get jobs. There shouldn’t be any more to it...

This is my point. Hire the best people, and forget about the rest.

That we're talking about "diversity hires" at all is a testament to the fact that there's still a stigma with regards to hiring women (and/or people of colour) within this industry. It suggests to me that there may not be enough trust that the women hired are as good at the job as a man would have been.
(I do think that the very question, "How much is 'enough'?" is its own form of quota - I could be reading your post wrong, but it seems like you're basically saying that there comes a point where there's such a thing as 'too much' diversity. As long as the person is qualified, what does it matter?)

I agree that the answer to fighting discrimination is not more discrimination. If Dubas or whoever believes that a white male is the most qualified person for a job, then I hope they don't pass over that candidate just because of the fact that they're a white male. But the history of the NHL is predominantly white and male - What do we really believe the chances are that all of those people were the most qualified people for those jobs at the time? How many of them were hired because they had previous experience on some level, with that experience being considered more valuable than the assets brought by someone with less experience but better ideas?

(Edit for clarification - The views expressed in this thread have been very, very supportive of these hires and moves. I didn't mean to imply that anyone here was necessarily treating these hires as nothing more than filling some kind of quota. )

I'm not sure why you would think that a person of a different gender would have a different perspective on how a sport is played opposed to a different "person". There are differences in genders for sure but there is more in common than is different.
The issue that I have with the term progressive is that it attempts to replace one social hierarchy ("old mens club") with another. Competence hierarchies should be the focus. IMO, saying the HW was hired in the interest of progressive pursuit, just undermines what she has accomplished.

Different perspectives don't have to necessarily lead to viewing the game differently - People view the game differently just by having their own opinions and biases, regardless of whether they share the same gender, skin colour, creed, sexual orientation, etc. However, I do believe that people coming from different backgrounds and different perspectives can view the world as a whole differently, and that having people with a multitude of different experiences, coming from a multitude of different cultures, can help connect people on an emotional level in a really big way. With a team that's looking to create a safe, winning environment where players feel protected, cared for, and welcome, having a "progressive" head office that isn't afraid to shake up the status quo just because a qualified candidate doesn't have a penis is a really great thing.

Having said that, I 100% agree with your last line - Pointing to this as a decision made solely in the name of diversity undermines both Hayley Wickenheiser and the team.

 

[Martin Skoula]

The only "progressive" part of the hiring I hope is at all relevant to Dubas is that he sees the league going in a lower physicality direction and recognizes that Wickenheiser would be more of an expert in that mindset than any man available.

 

[glue]

Robidas has one task. Figure out what to do with Marleau's cap hit after this season

Marleau Island?

But jokes aside, Marleau could still be a solid player in his last year. The cap hit sucks, but I believe the Leafs have the front office staff expertise to figure it all out.

 

[Notsince67]

Marleau Island?

But jokes aside, Marleau could still be a solid player in his last year. The cap hit sucks, but I believe the Leafs have the front office staff expertise to figure it all out.

He earned every penny in the playoffs.

 

[Mr Hockey]

Marleau will play out his contract, he just wont be a 6 mil worthy player. "If" the Leafs knew they would be signing JT, i doubt they would have signed Marleau...imo

 

[kk87]

As long as they hiring women because they are the best fit for the job and not just to fill some diversity quota I'm good with it.

I definitely agree with this, but it goes both ways. The gut reaction of some people once a woman gets hired is "what if she stole the job from a more qualified man..." when in reality there are women with fantastic hockey minds that have likely been passed over in the past due to their gender. By showing that our management team is open to hiring qualified candidates regardless of gender, we're expanding our pool of potential talent, not limiting it.

 

[ACC1224]

Robidas has one task. Figure out what to do with Marleau's cap hit after this season

As Director of Player Development, I don't think that would fall under his job description

 

[4thline]

The mention of the word “progressive” is an unfortunate and unnecessary red herring here .... Why would anyone want to assume that these hires are the result of some kind of “progressive” agenda to promote women over supposedly more qualified men? Considering their track records, it looks as if these hires know a lot about hockey. Full stop.

It seems like you just have a very warped and almost threatened view of what "progressive" means.
Because the underlined is a progressive mindset in the hockey world, while the bolded is a complete strawman.

 

[Notsince67]

I definitely agree with this, but it goes both ways. The gut reaction of some people once a woman gets hired is "what if she stole the job from a more qualified man..." when in reality there are women with fantastic hockey minds that have likely been passed over in the past due to their gender. By showing that our management team is open to hiring qualified candidates regardless of gender, we're expanding our pool of potential talent, not limiting it.

That kind of stuff happens in hockey all the time. A kid in peewee doesn't make the rep team and the blame is on the coach who knew the other kids father. I'm not going to pat someone's shoulder for hiring someone like HW. I expect her to get hired if she is the best person with a basket of attributes.
Let us not pretend here that the pursuit of progressive hiring respects the hierarchy of competence of an individual. It aims to socially engineer the rise of people based on a sub-group belief of competence. Maybe the intent is altruistic but in a different time, it could see someone like HW not get a job due to her skin color, religion, sexual orientation or political beliefs.
Toronto is a city where over 50% of people are now visible minorities. I expect unbigoted decision making.

 

[deletethis]

The only "progressive" part of the hiring I hope is at all relevant to Dubas is that he sees the league going in a lower physicality direction and recognizes that Wickenheiser would be more of an expert in that mindset than any man available.

Hogwash. How do you think Hayley Wickenheiser actually played hockey? Certainly not as a perimeter player. Elite female hockey players understand physicality as much as any other hockey player does. Maybe more because they get to experience its role when they play down to competition that isn't used to it and play up to competition who hold a distinct advantage with it.

 

[PromisedLand]

Except for the ex-Robidas island occupant I have no clue who these guys are. Anyone wanna do a quick point form update

 

[Matthews34]

I’d hope in 2018 that the only questions would be about HW not having any NHL experience not the fact she is woman. That being said when you reach the level she did those questions should’ve been answered. It would be cool if she’s Dubas’ replacement when it’s time for a change.

 

[PromisedLand]

Robidas has one task. Figure out what to do with Marleau's cap hit after this season

why is this Robidas' job?