Latest on the Arizona Coyotes Arena ordeal

AKL

Danila Yurov Fan Club President
Sponsor
Dec 10, 2012
39,646
18,063
The official statement:



More accurate reason: the Coyotes repeatedly delaying making payments to Glendale [referenced middle bottom of the linked article] and the city finally said "we're done with this shit."

Realistically I'm not sure either side was really in the relationship with their full hearts anymore. It was a terrible location relative to the Coyotes customer base (don't have actual data to back this up, just a hunch based on knowing the socioeconomics of the area), and Glendale had given them troubles in the past. Coyotes weren't the best tenants there and that has been established and discussed ad nauseum. It was just time to mutually end a relationship that had gotten toxic.
 

pekka55

Registered User
Dec 21, 2023
166
240
While true, I think we've seen about a dozen new Arizona arena renderings in the past decade, none of which have come to fruition
Yeah, renderings are nice and all, but you still need to actually build the f***ing thing before you can play hockey there. :laugh:
 

carjackmalone

Registered User
Dec 30, 2023
98
40
If the NHL schedulers could figure out a way for potential Quebec City Franchise Players to reside under 187 days in Canada and the province of Quebec the players would avoid paying a tax rate of 52percent

That was the problem last time Quebec had a team
 

Shwan

Registered User
Jan 30, 2019
323
649
Arizona
The problem is that Meruelo's plans are having difficulty in landing on Planet Reality.

I wanted to highlight the prescience of this statement.

The cards are really stacked here which is why the League is still making plans. Winning this auction really doesn't change much for the equation for anyone who has basic economics experience and lives in the Valley.

Let's assume the Coyotes are the only bidder and win the auction at base price.

Meruelo will then have to contend with:

Skyrocketing construction costs and dealing with the most powerful Union in Arizona that hates his guts for trying to bring out of state labor with the Tempe deal.

A high end rental real estate collapse on top of a CRE correction that will drive down any hopes of a ROI by the time he's done building in ~2030.

A continued lack of attendance as he's building just about as far away as possible where the NHL target demographic is shifting to in the Valley.

The Coyotes will be in the same exact situation they were 20 years ago when this arena opens in 2028, if they make it that far.
 

Mosby

Salt Lake Bound
Feb 16, 2012
23,719
18,851
Toronto
Glendale rink is too far away. Yes, it’s beside the Cardinals stadium but that’s only 8 drives a year and almost always on a weekend.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaveG

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
36,824
28,980
Buzzing BoH
The problem is that Meruelo's plans are having difficulty in landing on Planet Reality. If I had to bet, it would be that the NHL is finally ready to pull the plug and move the Yotes elsewhere, and also that the NHL has an eye on alternative cities, although of course the NHL will not do anything overtly until Meruelo either finally succeeds or fails. Too many stories like this creeping into the news lately:


Meh…. show me a politician who wouldn’t grandstand for something that’s out of reality and they’ll have my vote. :sarcasm:

Articles like that have been consistently coming our way since 2009. And Coyotes fans have been calling the off-season “arena season” since the 2010 season.
Although losing the Phoenix market hurts, the other owners are probably looking at this from the perspective that they can cash checks from the relocation fee and then in a decade cash another whopping check for a new Phoenix expansion team should an investor group appear with a real stadium deal and by that time probably a $1.5B check.

This is a big factor. It’s also the reason why it’s important for the league in getting Arizona settled one way or another. Because they currently have two markets (one new and one old) actively pressing to obtain teams.

But Meruelo has to finally face-plant on his latest stadium plan before anybody will do anything in the open, lest they be accused by Meruelo of undermining him.

Which is what we’re waiting for. The state land trust was expect to list the parcel this week. Could be out tomorrow, or early next week. There’s going to be several documents included in the listing, from both the state and the City of Phoenix. This might be the reason for the holdup but they will be setting the conditions for the auction and hopefully give us all a clearer picture if this project is going to come to fruition.
 

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
36,824
28,980
Buzzing BoH
what is the function of that weird design? bigger oval is the rink is guess, what's the other part?

My guess is it will be a smaller concert/events venue. TED had one included in its plans with a 3500 seat capacity. There will also be a practice/community rink in the project even though the Coyotes’ current practice rink is roughly 6 miles away from this site.
 

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
36,824
28,980
Buzzing BoH
"Location: Toronto"

C'mon now, you know damn well it can be a perfect day out and there won't be a single shovel in the ground.

Is being a Coyotes fan in Toronto disqualifying factor to you? We’ve got a few still living in Winnipeg too. :laugh:

OTOH, I do live here and can tell you he’s not wrong.
 

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
36,824
28,980
Buzzing BoH
The official statement:



More accurate reason: the Coyotes repeatedly delaying making payments to Glendale [referenced middle bottom of the linked article] and the city finally said "we're done with this shit."

All I’m going to say is Glendale’s city manager is on the record as recent as two weeks ago that the only reason why they did not renew the lease with the Coyotes is because they wouldn’t agree to a minimum 12 year lease. The reported late payments, taxes etc. had nothing to do with their decision.
 

pekka55

Registered User
Dec 21, 2023
166
240
All I’m going to say is Glendale’s city manager is on the record as recent as two weeks ago that the only reason why they did not renew the lease with the Coyotes is because they wouldn’t agree to a minimum 12 year lease. The reported late payments, taxes etc. had nothing to do with their decision.
You should always trust city employees 100%

They would never lie to you.
 

pekka55

Registered User
Dec 21, 2023
166
240
And they only do lie when they say something you in particular don't want to hear, correct? Got it.
No, but to trust any city employee is a bit iffy.

Sure, the city doesn't care if the Coyotes pay their taxes or not. That makes total sense.

I'm just saying that if the city really did like the Coyotes that f***ing much, then there would be a new arena already built years ago.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MessierII

Rpenny

Registered User
Feb 23, 2019
1,696
961
Where were they gonna move? I don't remember this story, although sometimes it's hard to keep track of all the "close calls" that have happened with regards to relocation.

Also, goddamn you're almost at 100k posts!
As an Oiler fan I can confirm. The Houston Rockets owner Les Alexander had flown into Edmonton to finalize a deal. The local group were given a deadline to come up with a package to keep the oilers in Edmonton.

HF thread on it What if the Oilers had relocated to Houston in 1998?


March 13, 1998: Edmonton was literally hours away from losing its professional hockey team, and along with it, much of the city's livelihood
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaveG and Dr Pepper

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
36,824
28,980
Buzzing BoH
You should always trust city employees 100%

They would never lie to you.

Well then using that logic I guess nobody should believe them for claiming the Coyotes were deliberately being the “deadbeats” that the city accused them of being?

Or are we going to admit to some confirmation bias here?
 

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
36,824
28,980
Buzzing BoH
No, but to trust any city employee is a bit iffy.

Sure, the city doesn't care if the Coyotes pay their taxes or not. That makes total sense.

I'm just saying that if the city really did like the Coyotes that f***ing much, then there would be a new arena already built years ago.
The city literally portrayed the Coyotes being the biggest deadbeats in the world and yet they were ready and willing to sign them to a minimum 12 year lease.

They actually went farther than that…. there were attempts from at least two Glendale city council members to disrupt the Coyotes attempt to get an arena deal with Tempe.

It’s clear you don’t understand the entire story here.
 

Dirty Old Man

So funny I forgot to laugh
Sponsor
Jan 29, 2008
7,989
6,145
Ostrich City
No, but to trust any city employee is a bit iffy.

Sure, the city doesn't care if the Coyotes pay their taxes or not. That makes total sense.

I'm just saying that if the city really did like the Coyotes that f***ing much, then there would be a new arena already built years ago.
You see above where they offered a 12-year lease on the 2003 arena, right? Which sort of implies that the late payment didn't really mean much to them, right? Sorry, didn't notice your join date so you probably haven't been involved in this for years...but now you know.
 

Guttersniped

I like goalies who stop the puck
Sponsor
Dec 20, 2018
21,784
47,024
The league does not want to land in the position where it's dictating to any owner what an owner must and must not do with his team, above what's required for all teams. The moment it does, it starts obligating an owner to incur expenses for it. The fact that it may generate "more revenues" may be irrelevant, and other teams might also have an issue with being forced to spend more money [higher salary cap] because the league is directing someone else what to do that creates more revenues that ultimately comes at their expense.


That would probably require discussions with the NHLPA, who's going to want $$$ for all the players who have to be inconvenienced as a result.

And since it would be the league saying "you should go play elsewhere" it's the league that's going to be asked to foot all the extra expenses that go with that.


As long as Alex Meruelo is willing and able to float that, it's not anyone else's problem. The moment he can't or won't is the moment it becomes a problem.
The league can definitely dictate that a NHL sized-arena is a requirement and failure to play in one for 5 years is unacceptable.

You can’t do whatever you want with these teams. This is a hard cap league, players only get half of actual Hockey Related Revenue, so having a team make so little decreases what’s spent on salaries.

If you’re arguing that owners don’t want more revenue to make the cap higher, that’s a ludicrous argument. They like a higher salary cap under hard cap system, escrow protects them. They get 50% of more money.

There’s also revenue sharing, the top revenue team end up giving money to the rest, so a team running massively in the red costs other owners money too.

So this is definitely not just Meruelo’s problem.

The short term loss in revenue seemed less of a problem when then the Tempe vote was key to a new arena but the delays have made this ridiculous and incredibly costly to players and the rest of the league.
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
29,242
8,674
The league can definitely dictate that a NHL sized-arena is a requirement and failure to play in one for 5 years is unacceptable.
It can, I agree. That falls in the "minimum standards" thing. It cannot tell a team "... so you have to go play in X location." The league doesn't sign up teams for leases, it can't compel a team to play in any location where the team hasn't secured a suitable place to play. That's the team's decision to figure out; it then becomes the league's decision on whether that's acceptable or not.
You can’t do whatever you want with these teams. This is a hard cap league, players only get half of actual Hockey Related Revenue, so having a team make so little decreases what’s spent on salaries.
Which benefits low-revenue teams who don't have to spend as much on player salaries which helps them stay more viable on their own and less reliant on help from revenue sharing et. al. And, it benefits high-revenue teams who also don't have to pay as much on player salaries so they retain more profit.

The only people that outright hate it are the NHLPA and the agents, because it's less money for the players and less in agent commissions.

If you’re arguing that owners don’t want more revenue to make the cap higher, that’s a ludicrous argument. They like a higher salary cap under hard cap system, escrow protects them. They get 50% of more money.
I'm arguing that the owners are largely ambivalent. GMs might care about a higher cap, but GMs don't shell out the money from their pockets to pay the players. I might actually argue that the slightly lower cap right now is better for the players, given that it helped them pay back escrow debt faster and helps limit future escrow debt because of the caps they want. [This becomes a very wonkish discussion.]

There’s also revenue sharing, the top revenue team end up giving money to the rest, so a team running massively in the red costs other owners money too.
Revenue sharing would exist regardless of where teams are located. And, Phoenix is capped at how much it can get in revenue sharing. If Phoenix moved to Hamilton, everyone else getting revenue sharing would get a little more [subject to the cap] and a new team would start getting revenue sharing. T o believe otherwise is to believe in the fantasy that all teams can be "above average" in revenues.


So this is definitely not just Meruelo’s problem.

The short term loss in revenue seemed less of a problem when then the Tempe vote was key to a new arena but the delays have made this ridiculous and incredibly costly to players and the rest of the league.
It is ultimately Meruelo's problem, until he screws the NHL, for the reasons I've long explained.

The last sentence is hyperbole.
 

Guttersniped

I like goalies who stop the puck
Sponsor
Dec 20, 2018
21,784
47,024
The NHL sees the Canadian market as being maxed out, and the USA as being a place where it can grow. It's all about the potential for growth.

There is no doubt that a franchise in Hamilton/southern Ontario would put 20,000 bums in the seats on a nightly basis, but if that doesn't happen, they will still be hockey fans with allegiances to the Leafs/Red Wings/whoever. There will be no net increase in fans, as opposed to ARI, Texas, Utah, etc. which still is "undiscovered country".

VGK and Seattle are two recent examples where the NHL has created, or at least grown, markets and revenue successfully.

The Toronto Maple Leafs will fight tooth and nail against a team in Hamilton.

The Leafs have long been of the opinion that no team can relocate to another’s geographical territory without written consent from the team affected, effectively giving them a veto over any team moving into the 50-mile radius surrounding the Air Canada Centre.

The league, meanwhile, contends it has the right to place an NHL franchise wherever it sees fit and if that falls into the territory of the Leafs or any other team, they’ll essentially have to suck it up and accept it.

If you look at the NHL’s own constitution, the Leafs appear to have an ironclad case. But the NHL, bolstered by the Canadian Competition Bureau that supports the league, is just as adamant it stands on solid ground.

According to the league’s constitution, those territorial rights could not be clearer. In fact, Section 4.3 of the league’s constitution states that, “No other member of the League shall be permitted to play games (except regularly scheduled League games with the home club) in the home territory of a member without the latter member’s consent. No franchise shall be granted for a home territory within the home territory of a member, without the written consent of such member.”

“Yes, there are superseding league rules that apply,” NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly said in an email in response to whether or not there are by-laws that usurp the constitutional provisions that govern territorial rights.

According to the league’s constitution, those territorial rights could not be clearer. In fact, Section 4.3 of the league’s constitution states that, “No other member of the League shall be permitted to play games (except regularly scheduled League games with the home club) in the home territory of a member without the latter member’s consent. No franchise shall be granted for a home territory within the home territory of a member, without the written consent of such member.”

Preceding that section, the constitution states that, “Any admission of new members with franchises to operate in any additional cities or boroughs shall be subject to the provisions of Section 4.3.” And it goes on to define a home territory as follows: “Home territory with respect to any member, means each member club shall have exclusive territorial rights in the city in which it is located and within 50 miles of that city’s corporate limits.”
<cut>
Let’s put it this way. A couple of years ago, the Leafs blocked a London, Ont., cable television station from broadcasting a pre-season game that didn’t involve the Leafs because it infringed on their broadcasting territory. Imagine how they would react if another team tried to take a piece of the action.

To be sure, both the league and the Leafs would have bulldog litigators confident of winning. But the league has privately told people for years that it feels it is on very solid ground on this one. And it was backed up by the Canadian Competition Bureau in 2008 who confirmed the NHL’s position when Jim Balsillie tried to purchase the Nashville Predators.

But in what it called a technical backgrounder to explain its ruling, the competition bureau wrote, “Readers should exercise caution in interpreting the Bureau’s assessment. Enforcement decisions are made on a case-by-case basis and the conclusions discussed in this backgrounder are specific to the present matter and are not binding on the Commissioner of Competition.”

Does that mean the competition bureau would have to look at the territorial issue again and perhaps make a different ruling based on the circumstances of this case? Or has the precedent already been set?

During the bankruptcy proceedings for the Phoenix Coyotes two summers ago, a letter was produced from the Leafs to the NHL dated Nov. 29, 2006 stating it believes a unanimous vote, not simply a majority vote, would be required to move a team into their territory. Daly later responded by saying all that meant was the Leafs interpreted the constitution differently than the league did.

“Just because we don’t have a team (in Toronto) or we didn’t agree to Jim Balsillie hijacking a team in Phoenix and moving it into Hamilton, that means the Leafs have a veto? Two plus two doesn’t equal three,” Daly said later that year. But he was just getting warmed up. He went on to say, “the whole concept that someone has a veto is just plain wrong. It’s made up. It’s a falsification of the facts.”

So where does this leave us? Well, when the league ultimately does decide to put a team in the Greater Toronto Area, it will be in for a fight from its most powerful member.

Broadcast territorial rights are big part of this too.

The New York Knicks owned the media territorial rights to Manhattan until 1996 when they gave up all their territorial restrictions on the Nets to get their vote to approve Knicks ownership changes. That’s how the Nets got to move to Brooklyn.

The Devils got to move to NJ in 1982 by paying millions in territorial compensation fees to the NYR, NYI and PHI. It took years for them to pay 12.5m they owed the 3 teams. For some perspective, the Colorado Rockies sold for 32m.

 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
29,242
8,674
For everyone who thinks the league can make Meruelo do ________, I have a couple simple questions:

1. Do you think the league can go to Meruelo in the offseason and say "Alex, you must play in [Salt Lake City, Quebec, Hartford, wherever you think deserves a team] next season?"

2. How does the league make an arena operator in that location sign a lease agreement with Meruelo?

3. Who pays for any early-termination fees on the lease at Mullett Arena, since it's a league-directed command to terminate the lease early?

4. What is the solution if the league tries to make Meruelo play in [city directed by the NHL] and whoever has an arena there says 'nope, not happening under our watch?"
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaveG and TheOne

rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
May 13, 2004
97,511
46,503
A Rockwellian Pleasantville
What was the issue with the Glendale rink? I know there was some bad blood between the team and the city but with the situation so dire couldn’t they try and work something out with Glendale so they can actually play in a suitable arena?

I may be misremembering but I seem to recall that the arenas location was one of the reason given for poor attendance as it was a bit out of the way but it’s right next to the Cardinals stadium so that seems like strange reasoning, and wouldnt this new potential arena location be even further out of the way then the Glendale location?
Glendale was a terrible location. Extremely far away from the majority of premium ticket buyers and corporate sponsors. Glendale the extreme west and not convenient for anyone, least of all the hockey fans of the valley.

This new location is right where all the money is. It’s far north but so are all the wealthiest residents of the valley. It’s an ideal location for many reasons.

The arena was bound to be on the edge of town. The Phoenix area is so spread out and yet so built up. The outskirts are really all that’s available. If you’re going to choose one edge of town to be on, this is the one you choose. It’s where the rich people are.

The official statement:



More accurate reason: the Coyotes repeatedly delaying making payments to Glendale [referenced middle bottom of the linked article] and the city finally said "we're done with this shit."
Not correct. The coyotes refused to sign a long term lease. Glendale wanted them to sign for over ten years. The Coyotes wanted a short term lease as they planned to build their own arena in a location that would actually work.
 

57special

Posting the right way since 2012.
Sep 5, 2012
48,062
19,766
MN
The Toronto Maple Leafs will fight tooth and nail against a team in Hamilton.



Broadcast territorial rights are big part of this too.

The New York Knicks owned the media territorial rights to Manhattan until 1996 when they gave up all their territorial restrictions on the Nets to get their vote to approve Knicks ownership changes. That’s how the Nets got to move to Brooklyn.

The Devils got to move to NJ in 1982 by paying millions in territorial compensation fees to the NYR, NYI and PHI. It took years for them to pay 12.5m they owed the 3 teams. For some perspective, the Colorado Rockies sold for 32m.

That really wasn't the point of my post, but the main objector to Hamilton as an expansion franchise back in the day was the Sabres, not the Leafs. They have, by far, the most to lose if Hamilton gets a franchise. Toronto can fill their arena many times over... Buffalo NEEDS the fans from the Niagara peninsula to fill theirs.

I'll agree that neither team would want a Hamilton franchise. I think it's a shame, because the rivalries might end up being terrific, and anyone who knows the area would agree that there are more than enough fans to go around, at least for the Canadian teams.
 

SupremeTeam16

5-14-6-1
May 31, 2013
8,139
7,301
Baker’s Bay
Glendale was a terrible location. Extremely far away from the majority of premium ticket buyers and corporate sponsors. Glendale the extreme west and not convenient for anyone, least of all the hockey fans of the valley.

This new location is right where all the money is. It’s far north but so are all the wealthiest residents of the valley. It’s an ideal location for many reasons.

The arena was bound to be on the edge of town. The Phoenix area is so spread out and yet so built up. The outskirts are really all that’s available. If you’re going to choose one edge of town to be on, this is the one you choose. It’s where the rich people are.


Not correct. The coyotes refused to sign a long term lease. Glendale wanted them to sign for over ten years. The Coyotes wanted a short term lease as they planned to build their own arena in a location that would actually work.
That makes sense.

Since this parcel of land is in such a desirable area of the city is it likely that the land auction will bring other bidders out of the wood work possibly driving up the cost of the land for Meurulo?

Do you guys think the union lobby that spent big to defeat the Tempe project follow suit and look for ways to disrupt the project at the new site? Possibly trying to source other competing bidders?
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad