Last Golden Age of Finnish hockey vs projected soon-to-be Golden Age of Finland

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Your dream team of 2020 has potential borderline NHLers already in the second line and from second pairing on. Defence consists completely of future names who are yet to hold a big role in any respectable ice hockey organization. One elite two-way centre. Couple crafty offensive players.

That is no golden generation, it's another bronze-chasing team! If you have heard of Portugal's golden generation of footballers for example it usually lists the standout names like Luis Figo - not every guy who played in the top-4 leagues.

No doubt Finland will have second and third liners from here on also in the salary capped NHL. I can't see why you should get excited over the fact and start listing every potential name you can think off. Identifying the next Finnish Landeskog, Voracek or E. Karlsson is more fruitful in my mind... why someone would be a difference maker. Even if it includes highlighting why the canditates found wouldn't possibly get there.

 

[FiLe]

Your dream team of 2020 has potential borderline NHLers already in the second line and from second pairing on. Defence consists completely of future names who are yet to hold a big role in any respectable ice hockey organization. One elite two-way centre. Couple crafty offensive players.

Good job missing the point.

The 2020 iteration crafted above was not a "dream team" by any merit. No, like I clearly said, I placed some deliberate restrictions on myself to craft the worst case scenario - which already could beat what is the best possible "Team 2000" on a good day.

The hypothetical best case scenario for 2020 will be something that'll rival Canada on the day. Do I believe we'll get there? Hardly. But it's not very likely either that every highly ranked prospect born between 1991 and 2001 fail miserably. Therefore, the most likely reality lies somewhere between. Which will still almost certainly be better than Team 2000.

 

[IceHockeyDude]

If we had produced the same amount of talent in early 90's and 00's than today, I believe we would have much more legendary names than Selänne, Koivu, Lehtinen, Timonen and so on. If the groups from the early 00's drafts were even close in being as potential and promising as the prospects that 've been drafted in the past few years then we would propably have 10 Filppulas or 10 Mikko Koivus right now.

 

[FiLe]

If we had produced the same amount of talent in early 90's and 00's than today, I believe we would have much more legendary names than Selänne, Koivu, Lehtinen, Timonen and so on. If the groups from the early 00's drafts were even close in being as potential and promising as the prospects that 've been drafted in the past few years then we would propably have 10 Filppulas or 10 Mikko Koivus right now.

Indeed.

In the entire decade spanning from 1990 to 1999, we produced perhaps a total of 15 players who were deemed to be high-end NHL prospects in their teens, and about half of them actually made it. On top of that, we had some guys like Timonen and Salo who actually beat the odds in making it.

Today, we produce about five high-end prospects not in a decade, but in every draft class. That means we'll produce in three years the same which we made in an entire decade twenty to fifteen years ago. To actually face the ultra-pessimistic scenario Tulipunaruusu touts, every single one of them would have to either stagnate and remain on the very level they are now, or - in the case of those who are still up-and-coming - fail completely.

Still, I guess the success rate of 50% back in the 90s was rather good, so there's no reason to assume that will hold up today. But there is strength in numbers regardless. Because even if as much as 2/3 of them fail, we're still far better off than in the past. And that's not accounting the odd-beaters, of whom there will also be some.

Between 2000 and 2005, we had around 20 to 30 Finns in the NHL each year. Two or three of them could be called stars, about ten were serviceable regulars and the rest were fringe players who never made it big. That is, incidentally, very close to the reality we are in now.

The most optimistic scenario for 2020 involves close to 50 Finns, about 10 of whom are genuine stars. But since life tends to follow the law of averages, the likely truth is somewhere in the middle. Let's say around 35-40 guys, with five stars, 20 serviceable regulars and the rest trying to beat the odds.

If we get to that, or even fall a bit short, we're still miles ahead of the previous "golden" generation.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Little sidenote: number of Europeans imported and drafted has also went up. Even in the 90's there were glass ceilings for non-North Americans. Completely different times, once again.

What by the way exactly makes Finnish hockey suddenly so good at bringing up far superior individuals like you hype them? Focus on goalie coaching was quite easily explained hence why all the goalkeepers. What has changed?

Bringing ten times more mikkokoivus or valtterifilppulas (let's see if there are even two to replace them...) without superstars like Barkov junior would suggest that the machine is still broken.

 

[IceHockeyDude]

This is the time when it is very exciting to follow hockey in NHL and in other leagues aswell. There are so many question marks on how our recent players and prospects will achieve their potential. I think the amount of options that we have in Finland's national team in upcoming years is huge compared to many other countries because it is so hard to say how all of these recent players will develop. Who will take the next step and who will struggle.

 

[FiLe]

What by the way exactly makes Finnish hockey suddenly so good at bringing up far superior individuals like you hype them? Focus on goalie coaching was quite easily explained hence why all the goalkeepers. What has changed?

Finnish junior coaching, for starters. About a decade ago, here was a drastic shift in methods and emphasis from learning the fundamentals of team play to playing to an individual player's strengths and weaknesses - the so-called "Swedish model", fully endorsed by Liitto.

But of course, any Finnish hockey fan worth their salt should already be aware of this, unless they've been living in a barrel for the last five years. The subject's been pretty much discussed to death on HFBoards, for starters.

Little sidenote: number of Europeans imported and drafted has also went up. Even in the 90's there were glass ceilings for non-North Americans. Completely different times, once again.

While part of it could also be explained with the change in NHL's interests, said "global shift" becomes a poor explanation when you actually examine things on the global scale. Because if it was the main reason, you'd see gains on ALL traditional hockey markets, not just Finland. However, that is not the case. Some have gone up - like Finland - while other countries like the Czech Rep and Slovakia are actually on a slight or not-so-slight decline.

By the way, why is Tulipunaruusu calling Barkov our only "superstar"? Up to this date, Sasha hasn't done nearly enough to earn the title. For example, Granlund at this point still trumps him with merit, both in the NHL and international competition. Yes, Barkov's projected ceiling is very high and he is likely to reach it, but I thought Tulipunaruusu does not believe in projections. Otherwise he wouldn't be panning our up-and-coming top prospects so hard. *Sniff, sniff* ...it stinks like double standard in here.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Barkov junior has world class skillset that you can compare with any elite ice hockey player in the world. Mikael Granlund doesn't have the same tools although he has vision. Had he grown in Sweden, Canada or America, that might have changed.

If everything is suddenly so good in Finnish hockey's youth work how Finnish offensive talents (besides Barkov junior) are constantly skipped in the drafts over their European competition. Kapanen had a Swede, a Dane, a Swiss (in top-11) go past him. Rantanen had a Czech and a Swiss ahead of him. Teräväinen fell down with two Czechs, one Swede, a Latvian and couple Russians being drafted before him.

2016 is potentially the first year when there are hints of Finnish (non-immigrant background) super talents. It's still early days for rating them. I believe in projections that take both sides of the coin in mind.

Czech Republic and especially Slovakia not having the same culture and facilities for the game explains something regarding the Finnish hype yet for example Pavel Zacha isn't talked up as the next big thig although I can't see why he wouldn't slot ahead of Kapanen or Rantanen in similar Czech prospect's comparison. None of them will save us.

 

[FiLe]

Barkov junior has world class skillset that you can compare with any elite ice hockey player in the world. Mikael Granlund doesn't have the same tools although he has vision. Had he grown in Sweden, Canada or America, that might have changed.

Let's see him rack up the numbers with those tools before we call him a superstar then. Because if you scoff the skillsets of "lesser" prospects who may not be Barkov but still have what it takes to make the league, and put question on whether they'll make it in the first place, that's still a double standard.

In Simple English: If we have a kid with world class skillset like Barkov, the odds are pretty good he'll be a superstar. It's not 100%, but still decent. Then, if we have kids who are not on the same level, but still have enough skillz to make the league, some of them will. Not 100%, but a decent amount regardless. And even those who don't make the league may still be of plenty use to the NT, just like Ville Peltonen and Raipe and Nummelin of the coveted "golden" generation, among others.

More kids with enough skills we develop, higher the amount available to us when building future NTs, leading to better teams. T-h-i-s_h-e-r-e_i-s_h-o-c-k-e-y_101. Te comprende?

If everything is suddenly so good in Finnish hockey's youth work how Finnish offensive talents (besides Barkov junior) are constantly skipped in the drafts over their European competition. Kapanen had a Swede, a Dane, a Swiss (in top-11) go past him. Rantanen had a Czech and a Swiss ahead of him. Teräväinen fell down with two Czechs, one Swede, a Latvian and couple Russians being drafted before him.

And Teemu Selänne went 10th overall, Saku Koivu went 21st overall beaten by quite a bunch of Swedes and some Russians... Sami Salo went 239th overall and Timonen went 250th overall... I don't think I have to list all of the guys who went before them. Look it up if it interests you. Ultimately, the draft positions and who goes before who are irrelevant. The only relevant thing that measures whether they're good enough or not is that they make the league.

Czech Republic and especially Slovakia not having the same culture and facilities for the game explains something regarding the Finnish hype yet for example Pavel Zacha isn't talked up as the next big thig although I can't see why he wouldn't slot ahead of Kapanen or Rantanen in similar Czech prospect's comparison. None of them will save us.

I wasn't aware that we need saving by a single invidual. We just need enough high-end talent to build a good enough NT for all those prestigious tournaments. If Kapanen and Rantanen reach their potential along with about 25 other players born in the 90s, we'll have a pretty damn good team.

And if our junior mill keeps this up, churning out about 5 NHL-worthy prospects from any given class, the odds are we'll have said team by the end of the decade, even if some turn out to be duds.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Average pieces won't even fill the void left by the same high-performing veteran core who provided for tournaments and tournaments. These guys have their shirts dragged to the rafters, they captained NHL organizations and played +1000 NHL games. Being drafted in the first round doesn't get you anywhere in this list, son.

Teemu Selänne was the only European first round pick in 1988. Went tenth overall. They saw something.

Selänne didn't go 23th with other similar background offensive options taken ahead of him. Why doesn't it reflect on the draft that somehow Finnish are now the new Swedish. Why are Swiss, Danish, Czech offensive prospects ahead in any year other than 2013's Finnish-Russian Barkov junior's introduction and perhaps 2016?

If Laine or Puljujärvi isn't the next Lindros Finnish youth machine is not bringing the results desperately needed. Superstars.

 

[FiLe]

Average pieces won't even fill the void left by the same high-performing veteran core who provided for tournaments and tournaments. These guys have their shirts dragged to the rafters, they captained NHL organizations and played +1000 NHL games. Being drafted in the first round doesn't get you anywhere in this list, son.

Well, duh. But you didn't have to wait for them to be NHL captains with +1000 games on their belt to be a decisive factor in the NT. You didn't wait for Saku Koivu to be all that at 35 years of age before sending him the NT invitation, and same goes for Selänne. They were as much a factor at 25, with far less experience. Actually, I believe most would prefer the earlier iteration.

And the kids we have now... are exactly at the same point than the former vets were at the same age. Granlund at 22 is pretty much the kid Saku Koivu was when he was 22 years old. Määttä and Ristolainen at 20 are ahead of the curve as Timonen and Salo were at the same age. Neither was nowhere near the NHL at that point.

As I said earlier, we have kids who are currently growing up to be direct replacements of most the retired vets. Matter of fact, if you watched the games they played in Sochi, Granlund already took his mantle as Saku's successor by feeding the same guy Saku fed in many tournaments before him, helping said guy capture the tournament MVP title. And Määttä + Vatanen played side-by-side with Timonen and Salo, and were not a step behind.

Saku, Teemu and co also didn't need any training wheels when they were starting their respective NT careers, but if veteran presence is absolutely necessary, you can still squeeze a few years out of Mikko Koivu, who isn't necessarily a star player, but is as much a leader as his brother is. So that's covered as well.

Only thing we don't have at the moment is another Selänne. But if it's all one is missing, one does not absolutely need it to win a tournament.

Selänne didn't go 23th with other similar background offensive options taken ahead of him. Why doesn't it reflect on the draft that somehow Finnish are now the new Swedish. Why are Swiss, Danish, Czech offensive prospects ahead in any year other than 2013's Finnish-Russian Barkov junior's introduction and perhaps 2016?

If Laine or Puljujärvi isn't the next Lindros Finnish youth machine is not bringing the results desperately needed. Superstars.

Okay, reality check. Selänne is something else. A phenom. Even a country like Canada is pushing out generational talent like Crosby or McDavid once a decade. From a population of five million, you may have to wait quite a while longer before another pops up. You can make a good player, and Finnish junior mill is making them by dozens these days, but truly great players are born.

Besides, hockey is a team sport. You don't need superstars to win in a team sport, all you need is a good enough team. Yes, superstars are nice to have and will make winning easier, but they aren't necessary to win. If you have a team of ten Valtteri Filppulas and then a team with nine Jonne Virtanens and one Teemu Selänne, which team is more likely to win, what do you think? How many titles has Anze Kopitar won with Slovenia?

And didn't I debunk that draft argument once already? Repeating it does not give it any more gravitas, gramps. For emphasis: Who goes where in the draft does not matter one bit. If you have Team Switzerland with a total of five NHLers who all went high in the draft and then you have Team Finland with 20 NHLers who all went lower than said Swiss, guess who's still got the better team?

Pining after individuals is pointless, because hockey is not an individual sport. For the umpteenth time, what matters far more is the strength in numbers. For example, a depth down the middle that consists of Aleksander Barkov, Mikael Granlund and Teuvo Teräväinen is already better than one that was made up by Saku Koivu, Olli Jokinen and Niko Kapanen. And if Teemu Pulkkinen, Mikko Rantanen and Jesse Puljujärvi develop into solid top-six NHL-level performers, a lineup made up of them is better than one that consists of Teemu Selänne, Ville Peltonen and Niklas Hagman - even if Selänne clearly is the best individual of the bunch.

Therefore, the future looks better than the past. Hockey 101.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

It is not very beneficial to compare someone breaking to the NHL in 1990's and 2010's... the individual ages for breakthrough are of course in favor of those doing it nowadays and the whole continent of Europe has undergone huge changes in hockey structures alone.

Saku Koivu was captain for the Montreal Canadiens (somewhat heralded organization in Quebec), superstar in Europe's best league and led the NHL scoring race until his injury. Mikael Granlund has come up with 41 points in his day job. When most are required to take herculean leaps in development you aren't talking about potential or ceilings but dreaming.

Erik Karlsson is the best offensive defenseman in the NHL. Gabriel Landeskog captains his NHL team. They aren't Canadians. They are evidence of the good work that Swedish youth work is and has been doing. Peter Forsberg is Swedish.

Barkov junior, Laine and perhaps even Puljujärvi are the only ones with the skills to reach that level once hit by Selänne, Lehtinen and Koivu. Never give me the odds but if I had to choose which trio fared higher in the hockey world... I would pick the Finnish golden generation. Since what is a golden generation without superior players? Not a golden generation.

 

[FiLe]

Saku Koivu was captain for the Montreal Canadiens (somewhat heralded organization in Quebec), superstar in Europe's best league and led the NHL scoring race until his injury. Mikael Granlund has come up with 41 points in his day job. When most are required to take herculean leaps in development you aren't talking about potential or ceilings but dreaming.

How many times do I have to explain you that it's not about what Saku Koivu has achieved overall compared to Granlund, it's about what Saku Koivu had achieved by the time he was 22 years old? By that time, in his day job Saku Koivu was an NHL rookie who had just posted a career high of 45 points. And maybe you're right - we shouldn't compare since this was an era when NHL scoring titles were won by players who posted numbers reaching to 110 and more, as compared to today when said trophy can be won by hitting high 80s.

In the Lion jersey however, Saku Koivu by the age of 22 was already a key player who had won an olympic bronze, a world title plus additional WHC silver on top. Granlund at the same age is similarly a key player in the NT and has a world title and an olympic bronze, so he's only dragging behind by a single WHC silver. Therefore, Granlund = Koivu, as far as the NT is concerned.

If you wish to compare Koivu's career totals to those of Granlund, you'll have to wait 'til Granlund has retired. Sorry.

Barkov junior, Laine and perhaps even Puljujärvi are the only ones with the skills to reach that level once hit by Selänne, Lehtinen and Koivu. Never give me the odds but if I had to choose which trio fared higher in the hockey world... I would pick the Finnish golden generation. Since what is a golden generation without superior players? Not a golden generation.

And in the end, said "golden" generation only ever won one title, in a tournament that didn't even involve any NHLers. Same feat was repeated 16 years later by a team mostly made up of lost-cause chumps born in the 80s. Against superior competition, to boot.

I don't mean to belittle achievements like the silver in Turin, but it's still nothing the up-and-coming generation can't achieve too as long as the stars line up right.

What you need to realize is that superior individuals don't necessarily make up a superior team. A good team is always more then the sum of its parts. If you have superior depth out of which you can pull better overall teams, then you do have a better generation than one that was mostly shallow but had a handful of phenomenal individuals.

 

[Snowsii]

Average pieces won't even fill the void left by the same high-performing veteran core who provided for tournaments and tournaments. These guys have their shirts dragged to the rafters, they captained NHL organizations and played +1000 NHL games. Being drafted in the first round doesn't get you anywhere in this list, son.

Hmm.. I thought Määttä did pretty well, playing in 1st pairing, while Letang were out. As Ristolainen did last of the season.

If you're not too stubborn to check, that both are way better than we have had ever, WHEN COMPARING them U-20 Timonen, Salo, Lydman.

If Laine or Puljujärvi isn't the next Lindros Finnish youth machine is not bringing the results desperately needed. Superstars.

Neither of them have that gritty in their game, so they would be next Lindros. Wether they become superstars, isnt known yet, but their skillset does give them chance to do that.

 

[FiLe]

If you're not too stubborn to check, that both are way better than we have had ever, WHEN COMPARING them U-20 Timonen, Salo, Lydman.

Here's hoping. But for emphasis: At 21, both Määttä and Ristolainen are NHL regulars.

At 21, Timonen and Salo were still busting their young hind sides off trying to make a name for themselves in this grand world metropol known as Turku. They finally made the transition (after a detour to Helsinki) and became NHL rookies roughly @ 24. By that age, save for freak accidents, OM & RR will already have about three full seasons of NHL on their belts.


So hopefully there's no further need to explain why these kids are already looked upon as viable NT replacements for those two now-retired badasses. And same for why people don't miss Saku Koivu all that much now that we've got Mikael Granlund. It remains to be seen whether they can ever truly get close to where their predecessors got, but as of right now, they sure aren't dragging behind.

Then you must add to the fact that we've already also got Barkov who admittedly has all it takes to be a superstar AND Teräväinen who's growing up to be another Koivu comparable - even complete with the leader skillset, something Granlund may slightly lack. Add on top of that several highly-touted winger prospects (even if none of them are a direct replacement to Selänne), the futures of the Finnish NT in the year 2015 look far brighter than they looked in 1995.

And even on top of THAT, we've got guys like Markus Granlund and Donskoi, who may not be all that prestigious but still have every tool necessary to be the Niko Kapanens and Hagmans of this new generation. Not guys who will win us titles all by themselves, but when you pile 'em all up together with these other guys who have already made it or are likely to make it, they still make one heckuva nice lookin' team.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

You seem to have no idea what the hell happened in Finnish hockey during the 90's.

Those TPS, HIFK and Jokerit were elite teams of this world. Finnish domestic hockey was at it's best. Better than it ever likely will be. Best in Europe.

Guess if the Bosman-ruling to allow free agents in European football has changed anything... that is the same timeline you try to bend together from different ends.

Ristolainen had a big role because he was playing for a team that tried it's best not to win. Määttä at least did it in respectable organization.

I repeat: of course Finnish hockey will still produce average NHLers. Why aren't Finnish offensive prospects then seen as elite prospects on the draft?

 

[FiLe]

You seem to have no idea what the hell happened in Finnish hockey during the 90's.

Those TPS, HIFK and Jokerit were elite teams of this world. Finnish domestic hockey was at it's best. Better than it ever likely will be. Best in Europe.

I'm aware alright. What wasn't changed in the 90s however is that the best players in the world were still in the NHL.

Timonen and Salo as SM-liiga players may have been better than your average Liiga player these days, but any kid who makes it to the NHL these days younger than them is still ahead on the curve. Or, at the very least, on level.

I repeat: of course Finnish hockey will still produce average NHLers. Why aren't Finnish offensive prospects then seen as elite prospects on the draft?

And I'm telling you for the Xth time: It does not matter from the NT standpoint, as long as the amount of "average" NHLers is greater than ever.

Yet again: In the late 1990s/early 2000s, our NT was something like this - one or two elite individuals, six or seven "average" NHLers, and the rest were fringe NHLers or scraped together from various European leagues.

In the future, we may lack the elite individuals, but the amount of 2nd/3rd line NHLers in your average iteration of a national team may be close to whoppin' 20 instead of falling short of ten. Which means said team is still miles better than the one of the previous "golden" era, despite lacking the odd star player.

Now, how many times I have to repeat this before it gets through to you?

 

[IceHockeyDude]

In my opinion all these players from the group of youth have the possibility to be the absolute elite of NHL:

Forwards: Barkov, Teräväinen, Granlund, Rantanen, Kapanen, Puljujärvi and Laine
Defencemen: Vatanen, Määttä, Ristolainen, Honka, Juolevi and Välimäki

These ones are in a chance of being regular NHl-players in just a few years:
Pulkkinen, Armia, Ma. Granlund, Haula, Aho, Nättinen, Lehkonen, Saarela, Pokka, Lindell, Jokipakka, Lindbohm, Niemeläinen and Vaakanainen

And then there are other late rounders and new prospects that will most likely be appears later.

I see the future brighter than ever for sure.

 

[FiLe]

These ones are in a chance of being regular NHl-players in just a few years:
Pulkkinen, Armia, Ma. Granlund, Haula, Aho, Nättinen, Lehkonen, Saarela, Pokka, Lindell, Jokipakka, Lindbohm, Niemeläinen and Vaakanainen

Haula already is a regular. It's more of a question whether he'll ever be more than a bottom-line workhorse, the so-called Riku Hahl of this new generation.

 

[Teukka]

Without going too deep into the conversation, I thought I'd make a stat from Finns getting drafted into the NHL. As previous posters have said, it's not the complete story, but it's still a big part of it. A few things can be seen just by looking at this stat:
1.) Number of Finns drafted seems to be on the incline after a horrible dip with the 89s in 2007.
2.) 2015 was good, but nowhere near 2001-good.
3.) Even a strong draft year (in terms of number of players drafted) doesn't mean anything. How many 2006-drafted NHL players do we have?

Of course, the image I made doesn't differentiate in any way between 1st and 7th round picks, so there are a lot of imperfections, but it more or less correlates with the "golden-ness" of our generations.

 

[FiLe]

It's worth noting that before the 2004 lockout, drafted players were allowed to be of any age. Especially around the turn of the millennia many clubs used their late-round picks to draft European players who were grossly overage just to get their rights.

Post-lockout, only players up to the age of 20 have been draft eligible.

That "spike" in the turn of the millennia (18 players 1999, 19 in 2000, 24 in 2001 and 26 in 2002) was because plenty of guys born in the 70s suddenly saw themselves get drafted after they'd gained a bit of prominence playing for the NT. Examples include names as Jukka Hentunen, Hannes Hyvönen, Mikko Eloranta, Esa Pirnes, etc.

What that graph really reveals is that post-1995, it's been quite even. There's been an odd lean year, but there really hasn't been a "lean season" lasting multiple years. Which is a little surprising, since classes born from 1985 to 90 are generally considered to be garbage.

Perhaps a more telling graph would be one that tells how many of the players drafted each year actually saw some NHL action.

 

[YARR123]

You seem to have no idea what the hell happened in Finnish hockey during the 90's.

Those TPS, HIFK and Jokerit were elite teams of this world. Finnish domestic hockey was at it's best. Better than it ever likely will be. Best in Europe.

Guess if the Bosman-ruling to allow free agents in European football has changed anything... that is the same timeline you try to bend together from different ends.

Ristolainen had a big role because he was playing for a team that tried it's best not to win. Määttä at least did it in respectable organization.

I repeat: of course Finnish hockey will still produce average NHLers. Why aren't Finnish offensive prospects then seen as elite prospects on the draft?

Looks like you’re turning every possible stone to make arguments that fit your own agenda.

Who cares if there was a dane a swede and czech drafted before Kapanen? He was drafted 22nd overall, a good position.

Who gives a **** if a russian a swede a brazilian and a lusitanian was taken before Rantanen? Guy was drafted 10th overall! Kid has all the tools to become a world class player. How many 10th overall or better picks were there in the golden generation?

You keep bringing up Barkov’s background. And due to this backround you somehow deduce that Barkov doesn’t count. 1) He’s not an immigrant, he was born and raised in Finland. 2) He was developed in the Finnish system. To me that’s no different than him having an ex star Finnish dad.

The fact is, the talent that Finland has produced in the age groups 92-98 looks like as good or better than any other 7 year period we’ve had thus far. The golden generation had it’s talented players, but the reason they did well was due to the teams being more than the sum of it’s parts. It’s not like ever had a team loaded with talent. We had Selänne, a score of higher profile guys, and the rest were grinders that had specific roles and gave everything for the team.



1. Barkov
2. Mi Granlund
3. Ristolainen
4. Rantanen
5. Armia
6. Pulkkinen
7. Kapanen
8. Honka
9. Määttä
10. Teräväinen
11. Ma Granlund
12. Lindell
13. Pokka
14. Donskoi
15. Puljujärvi
16. Laine

That’s not my ranking but the order in which the players popped into my head. Anyway, that’s a list of players that we can all quite objectively say have a chance of becoming a top 6 player in the NHL. All of these players are very talented. All of these players are born between 92 and 98.

Obviously not all of them will make it. Some will be complete busts while some will become fringe NHLers. But not many of them need to pan out in order for us to have a very very competitive team in 2020, when you add them to players born before 92, possibly players born after 98, and players that are not on the list (How many thought for example Timonen or Salo would make the careers they had when they were drafted?).

My conclusion through my 15 minute analysis while I should be writing my dissertation for uni but instead I’m thinking about hockey lol is that the talent pool Finland has right now is the deepest we’ve ever had. Wether the talent is realized into a strong team is anyones guess. But it’s looking good.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

You keep bringing up Barkov’s background. And due to this backround you somehow deduce that Barkov doesn’t count. 1) He’s not an immigrant, he was born and raised in Finland. 2) He was developed in the Finnish system. To me that’s no different than him having an ex star Finnish dad.

Barkov junior is as Finnish as I am. If he zeroes the past week every weekend the only way we know, then he is even more Finnish than I am. It just happens to be quite the coincidence that the brightest two talents in Finnish team sports are sons of former Soviet athletes who settled down and found home at Finland. I believe there is absolutely immense learned knowledge behind player paths of those two. Their fathers (later turning to coaching) were introduced to it nowhere else than the Soviet sports system.

You raised an interesting point about having for example a former NHL star father. Kasperi Kapanen spent about ten of his first years in Northern America. The most important years if I might add. So even if he would somehow breakthrough he wouldn't be the patient zero, the golden superstar of his generation clearly produced by the Finnish system.

I don't get why people are so quick to compare different times. Europe before the European Union even was at full steam... things change. The best benchmark is present day (say for example after lockout when the rules were forged again) and comparing the situation with our rivals.

Sweden for example gathered Filip Forsberg, Hampus Lindholm, Elias Lindholm, Alexander Wennberg, Andre Burakovsky, Adrian Kempe, William Nylander, Jacob Larsson and Gabriel Carlsson in those draft's first round and had about twice or even treble amount of Swedish players taken in the draft. In this comparison the Finnish youth machine can't beat the most culturally and geographically reasonable opponent even in one draft year.

2012-2015 drafts also saw Teräväinen and Kapanen for example fell down. No doubt there is world class skill in Teräväinen and some positive qualities come with Kapanen but like the draft confirms there are still question marks too.

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I like and appreciate Mikael Granlund's game. He is the closest of 'Finnish generated' to a big NHL breakthrough but he still has find more to his game, especially considering that he currently features in a puck-possession team that I could see suiting his style of play the very well. The downsides are concussion-issues and the fact that he may not ever be peak-NHL caliber offensive wizard. It's an insult to Koivu and Selänne and every top athlete if second line performance does it this time around.

 

[FiLe]

I like and appreciate Mikael Granlund's game. He is the closest o 'Finnish generated' to a big NHL breakthrough but he still has find more to his game, especially considering that he currently features in a puck-possession team that I could see suiting his style of play the very well. The downsides are concussion-issues and the fact that he may not ever be peak-NHL caliber offensive wizard. It's an insult to Koivu and Selänne and every top athlete if second line performance does it this time around.

Yet, for the umpteenth time, Granlund is exactly where Koivu was when he was of Granlund's age. So let's get back to this topic in a couple of years' time and see if he's still in pace. But right now, if you feel insulted for them, that's all in your head.

I give you that he probably won't be the Wild's captain by that time (if ever). Let's hope he doesn't catch a cancer either.

Also, I suggest you take a stroll 'round the Habs section here in HFBoards and ask their opinion on Koivu. In Finland, he has a revered status (big fish in a small pond). But if you ask people who watched his daily game year after year... Most will no doubt have nothing but immense respect for the guy because of his off-ice endeavors, but when the time comes to evaluate his value as a player and nothing more, same people will say he was a solid top-six guy who was thrust into the role of the leading player and while he did his darnest to be worth it, truth was he was still 'the man' only because they didn't have no one better at the time.

Selänne was all that they call him and then some. But the rest of these players you hold in such high esteem and think the new kids can't compete? The truth is that they weren't really anything special by NHL standards. Better than the league average and never short of a job, but the league has about a hundred similar players at any given time.

Bottom line: You say we're overvaluing the present, while it's really you who's got bit of a rosy look of the past. I guess that explains your chosen moniker.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Mikael Granlund is almost PPG player at the AHL. League which superstars rarely get to try their hands on but Granlund made an exception...

Granlund hasn't yet touched Koivu's 'peak' or even the unfortunate lows, the sum of his skills (especially skating) and I think it is very unlikely he will have the same impact as Koivu did coming over as one of the best players in Europe ever. But it is useless comparison if someone truly thinks players in the 90's and 2010's have anyhow close career paths. Better invest into Nokia since it's stock is soon about to skyrocket...

To even start discussing golden generation you need players like Koivu and Selänne. Pure offensive skills combined with the technical skill, very much including skating. At elite level.