Last Golden Age of Finnish hockey vs projected soon-to-be Golden Age of Finland

[teravaineSAROS]

So I noticed the Patrik Laine thread was about to get a bit too off-topic on page 20 (http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1550405&page=20) where we got into a debate over wether the future of Finnish hockey will become THE Golden Age or if people are perhaps overhyping the Finnish prospects a bit too much and that the coming era won't be able to touch the last Golden Age Finland had.

What is your take on this? will Team Finland become better than ever or not? let's compare a full line-up between the last Golden Age of Finland with the lines we think Finland might show up with in say one of the future olympics or whatever.

Click to read more...

 

[teravaineSAROS]

An example of what I think a future Team Finland would look like (ideally with zero injuriess ofc)


Teräväinen-Barkov-Laine (Laine's sniping complements Barkov's playmaking)
Rantanen-Mi.Granlund-Puljujärvi
Ma.Granlund-Lehterä-Kapanen
Aho/Armia/Saarela-Nättinen-Pulkkinen


Välimäki-Ristolainen
Määttä-Vaakanainen
Juolevi-Honka/Pokka/Lindell


Saros
Kähkönen/Husso



criticism?

 

[Orvelo]

An example of what I think a future Team Finland would look like (ideally with zero injuriess ofc)


Teräväinen-Barkov-Laine (Laine's sniping complements Barkov's playmaking)
Rantanen-Mi.Granlund-Puljujärvi
Ma.Granlund-Lehterä-Kapanen
Aho/Armia/Saarela-Nättinen-Pulkkinen


Välimäki-Ristolainen
Määttä-Vaakanainen
Juolevi-Honka/Pokka/Lindell


Saros
Kähkönen/Husso



criticism?

I think this is a great team and we are starting to produce talents. Its nice to see that we have centers wingers and defensemen coming.
Only problem to me is that aside from Saros we aren't producing top quality goalkeepers any more.
But is very nice to finally get some of the worlds best talents. It is too early to say that Laine, Pulju, Juolevi, Välimäki, Vaakanainen are going to be very good top level NHL players. In some cases we have overhyped our prospects and found ourselves disappointed.

 

[IFK]

Only problem to me is that aside from Saros we aren't producing top quality goalkeepers any more.

I'm not paid this. I think we have a lot of goalies who has all the tools to come NHL star. Like Husso, Kähkönen, Korpisalo, Kiviaho, Aittokallio, Vehviläinen, Juvonen, Gibson, Ortion, Laurikainen, Rajaniemi, Setänen, Kolppanen and lot of goalies who we even not know already. They are all very young and they all have the tools to be NHL goalies and same level than Rinne, Kiprusoff, Rask, Niemi etc. Like Rinne or Kiprusoff, no one could say they will be Vezina level goalies when they drafted. Actually we have very good prospect pool in goalies now, maybe best of all time. Then we have also little older goalies and they can still come and take a place to the show like Koskinen, Helenius etc.

 

[IceHockeyDude]

The golden generations of our forwards that were born in 70's are Selänne, Lehtinen and Saku Koivu. These were phenomenal in our national team. Selänne and Lehtinen were stars in NHL and Koivu was the captain of Habs and a fine player but not a super star. Also Sami Kapanen was a decent player.

Compared to our latest prospects, I think we have more potential and bigger amount of prospects overall than the ones from the past.

Timonen, Numminen, Niinimaa and Salo were some exceptional dmen back in the day and it is not an easy task to fill their places.

However with Vatanen, Määttä, Ristolainen, Jokipakka, Honka, Pokka, Juolevi, Välimäki etc I believe we have a reason to expect some really strong candidates to compete in the future for a long time.

Anyways I like to be positive and see team Finland in the Olympics a very strong candidate to win the games on and off the paper.

 

[Erikfromfin]

Some of the players I like... 90 borns only

TEAM A

Mikael Granlund'C' - Aleksander Barkov'A' - Patrik Laine
Mikko Rantanen - Teuvo Teräväinen - Jesse Puljujärvi
Kasperi Kapanen - Markus Granlund - Teemu Pulkkinen
Teemu Hartikainen - Roope Hintz - Markus Hännikäinen
Julius Nättinen

Olli Juolevi - Sami Vatanen
Olli Määttä - Rasmus Ristolainen'A'
Juuso Välimäki - Urho Vaakanainen
Julius Honka

Juuse Saros
Ville Husso
Christopher Gibson

Lauri Marjamäki

TEAM B

Sebastian Aho - Michael Keränen - Joel Armia
Artturi Lehkonen'A' - Aleksi Saarela - Joonas Donskoi
Kristian Vesalainen - Otto Somppi - Iiro Pakarinen
Henri Ikonen - Erik Haula - Miikka Salomäki
Juho Lammikko

Esa Lindell'C' - Ville Pokka'A'
Markus Niemeläinen - Vili Saarijärvi
Jyrki Jokipakka - Petteri Lindbohm
Alex Lintuniemi

Joni Ortio
Joonas Korpisalo
Kaapo Kähkönen

Karri Kivi

TEAM C
more of the KHL/liiga caliber would have guys like
reunanen,niku,tuulola,hakanpää,kivistö,näkyvä,rissanen,vainonen,vainio,
tuulola,kuokkanen,mäkinen,tolvanen,jormakka,j.ikonen,jo.nättinen,rajala
,junttila,sallinen,aaltonen,laakso,vehviläinen,aittokallio,mäenalanen,vähätalo
,mikkola, felixson et cetera

 

[IFK]

Some of the players I like... 90 borns only

When you put this in that way, it's look absolutely good and we have very good prospect pool - i think we haven't had like this ever.

There is players who have good chance to be elite players or superstars like Mikael Granlund, Barkov, Puljujärvi, Laine, Rantanen, Teräväinen, Vatanen, Määttä, Ristolainen, Juolevi, Saros, Husso at least. Also Kapanen, Eeli Tolvanen, Pulkkinen, Honka, Välimäki, Vaakanainen, Lindell, Aho, Armia, Pokka have that ceiling also, but it's more longer shot for them right now.

 

[Teukka]

Never thought I would say this as a Finnish hockey fan, but it looks like we have too many high-end RWs.

 

[Karma_]

If we look back, the strongest teams of the "last golden generation" were probably World Cup team 2004 or Torino 2006.
Those teams had good chemistry, and plenty of decent to great NHL players at their peak or close to it.
Everything is possible, but I can only hope with fingers crossed that these current youngsters will reach even the same level of play.

Blasts from the past just to demonstrate what we had then:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/fi/playerstats.htm?season=20032004&position=S
http://www.nhl.com/ice/fi/playerstats.htm?season=20052006&position=S
http://www.nhl.com/ice/fi/playerstats.htm?season=20062007&position=S

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

I don't still see anything more than return back to normal schedule in Finnish skaters.

For Olympic team the current development would likely mean one stronger punch line with names like Granlund, Barkov junior, Laine, Teräväinen contributing. If one of those could carry the second line on his own that would help but to be material favourites against pretty much anyone is quite far-fetched. Another bronze campaign for the overachieving.

The other options are at best borderline NHL third liners with their ceilings, in my mind which does not exactly provide upgrade. I doubt many of these skillsets even replace veteran specialists such as Selänne, Timonen, Salo and S.Koivu who's impact was quite valuable. Not to forget for some international games have so far been more about boosting one's personal draft chances and overriding team instructions while trying to fulfill huge skates as the next Selänne or Koivu.

 

[Teukka]

Man, it's hard work to think of good offensive lines out of these 90s' kids. The centres and right wingers are awesome scoring threats, but finding the right balance and chemistry is a task I'm sure Team Finland will have to face in the future. You really don't want to see anyone play on the wrong position, but because of the abundance of RWs, someone has to. My attempts at making a lineup might overvalue Pulkkinen and Aho, but those are players that I really like and think will surprise many. Maybe in five years or so, the lineup will look like this:

Pulkkinen-Barkov-Puljujärvi
Kapanen-Teräväinen-Rantanen
Aho-Mi. Granlund-Laine
Hartikainen-Hintz/Nättinen/Ma. Granlund-Hännikäinen

 

[Raimo Sillanpää]

I don't think there'll be an exception to the past until proven. In 2000's we had prospects, Ruutu, Pitkänen, Filppula, Koivu, Jokinen x 2 etc, and we finally had goalies.

All these kids have potential, but they need to fulfill that first - this is where we got it wrong last time. I think kids should be more thoughtful of when they go over, like Selänne, no rush to go to a bad team. Drafted by Edmonton? Stay in Liiga until ready - don't go over and get ruined etc.
Drafted by Detroit? Fly over asap.

 

[Orvelo]

I don't think there'll be an exception to the past until proven. In 2000's we had prospects, Ruutu, Pitkänen, Filppula, Koivu, Jokinen x 2 etc, and we finally had goalies.

All these kids have potential, but they need to fulfill that first - this is where we got it wrong last time. I think kids should be more thoughtful of when they go over, like Selänne, no rush to go to a bad team. Drafted by Edmonton? Stay in Liiga until ready - don't go over and get ruined etc.
Drafted by Detroit? Fly over asap.

Yeah, its definitely a matter of who drafts them. But i think if u have the chance to play in Nhl with decent minutes you should do that.

 

[Snowsii]

I don't still see anything more than return back to normal schedule in Finnish skaters.

For Olympic team the current development would likely mean one stronger punch line with names like Granlund, Barkov junior, Laine, Teräväinen contributing. If one of those could carry the second line on his own that would help but to be material favourites against pretty much anyone is quite far-fetched. Another bronze campaign for the overachieving.

The other options are at best borderline NHL third liners with their ceilings, in my mind which does not exactly provide upgrade. I doubt many of these skillsets even replace veteran specialists such as Selänne, Timonen, Salo and S.Koivu who's impact was quite valuable. Not to forget for some international games have so far been more about boosting one's personal draft chances and overriding team instructions while trying to fulfill huge skates as the next Selänne or Koivu.

So basically, you're saying that Kapanen, Aho, Pulkkinen, Armia, Doskoi, Ma. Granlund, Puljujärvi and Rantanen got only 3rd line ceilings?

And then you're not even mentioning anything about our defence prospects. Which telling the truth looks alot better, maybe even best ever. Ristolainen, Vatanen and Määttä being with very good allready. Then there's Lindbohm, Lindell, Honka, which havent yet established their roles. Not even going to go for our prospects.

Have to say, you're post if one of the pessimist ones i've seen ever.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

So basically, you're saying that Kapanen, Aho, Pulkkinen, Armia, Doskoi, Ma. Granlund, Puljujärvi and Rantanen got only 3rd line ceilings?

Most of them likely. Best case scenario is two good offensive lines without any injuries.

There are still huge question marks around every one of those players even if two or three got some kind of talent going for them. Still, even being picked in the top-10 or first round doesn't make you some instant offensive dynamo that spirals Finland into olympic gold in the years to come.

For example Kapanen was passed by couple teams where there are some notable Finnish scouting activity. Nashville and Columbus. Kevin Fiala and Sonny Milano were favoured. I think that was a sign.

Ristolainen, Vatanen and Määttä still haven't risen to first pairing roles. I can't tell like in Barkov junior's case that their projections are pointing at there. Only that development would upgrade the Finnish defence that has lost some seasoned veterans. Having NHL defenders is quite normal state to be in a for a hockey country big as Finland.

 

[FiLe]

One of the silliest things to do while fantasizing about future teams is using arbitrary cut-off dates - like "90s" or the "94-98 born crop" etcetera. A senior NT is always a stepless entity - while a healthy squad has most of its players in the mid-20s range, there will always be some who are in their 30s, and - if we're doing good - an odd wunderkind or two as well.

For example, players born in the late 80s such as Lehterä, Komarov, Rask etc will still be relevant in the early new 20s. Also, if things go well, by that time we also have a bunch of exciting new kids coming in "just a year or two". It's highly doubtful that we will ever see an NT made solely of the currently-known 90-borns.

There's also heavy myopia involved with the practice of listing all the good prospects and just assuming all of them will develop into NHL level producers. It's more of a "strength in numbers" kind of affair. Some do, some don't, but more of them are out there, more likely it is that some indeed do. Between names like Pulkkinen, Armia, Kapanen, Puljujärvi and Laine we seem to have a good crop of scoring type RWs coming up as mentioned, but it's hard to say if any of 'em will be as good as Selänne. However, if even two or three of 'em are worse than Selänne but better than Antti Miettinen, we're still better off than in the past.

It's the opposite kind of myopia however to [list a meager handful of players] and claim that the new kids won't be same kind of "specialists" as far the NT is concerned. Very few of said names who were prominent in the NT were never truly essential to their club teams. The very reason they became essential in the NT was because we had no better options to thrust into prominence. For example, if we ultimately had Barkov as an NHL 3rd liner and no other leading centres in the league (which I fully trust will not be the case), he would be still be the "Saku Koivu" of the new generation - a "specialist" very critical to the NT.

As far actual future player pool is concerned, we do appear to be rather well off. The forward crop looks perhaps better than ever - especially the centre depth is already there with Barkov, Lehterä, Granlund, Teräväinen and more. Those four alone are double the amount of the previous gen when we were in pretty deep do-dah if just one of Saku or OJ was sidelined. It's certainly a good situation to be in when you have to place some into wings to fit them all in one team.

Top names in the new D crop certainly don't look any worse than Timonen and Salo. It's hard to say what the depth here will ultimately be though. Hopefully we'll have at least enough to ice a full unit when everybody's healthy and well. The stepless process is somewhat disrupted here though. When building the future back end, it certainly looks like Vatanen will be the oldest player well before he's even 30.

Goalies - eh. Let's keep in mind that to date, we've pretty much only had two - Lehtonen and Rask - who were highly-touted performers in their late teens. The rest have been closer to 25 before getting there. Some even older. Even if kids like Saros won't immediately rise to prominence, there are still established guys in Rask and Rämö who can carry us well for most part of the next ten years. Then we have Ortio and Raanta who appear to be on the verge of making it big.

Bottom line: There is no "pure future" - an NT at any given moment will be some kind of mixture of unforeseen future, known present and perhaps even bits of the past. And while it's hard to say yet how exactly the NT of the late new tens will compare to the NT of the late 90s/early 2000s, I guess it'd still be pretty dumb to say that we're on the decline.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

And while it's hard to say yet how exactly the NT of the late new tens will compare to the NT of the late 90s/early 2000s, I guess it'd still be pretty dumb to say that we're on the decline.

It would be kind a hard to be on continued decline when the national team has kept falling in standard and aging to the point what was Sochi 2014 and beyond when the old guard has now retired. 2015 is the rock bottom as the Finnish material goes.

So when will that change? Barkov junior and Granlund had skillsets to help in that department in their first Olympic tournament but then again unlike them half of these guys mentioned have so far rebelled against the U-something coaching staff... Not exactly same kind of already mature characters ready to step right in.

S. Koivu and Selänne were elite scorers through their career for the national team and contributed wholesome. Selänne especially was one of the best scorers of all which was evident even in Sochi. Only way to replace that void is to have Finnish elite NHL scorers once again. Top-50 individuals in the world. Elite specialists. List of potential NHL players won't exactly do it from this generation.

Silver, bronze, bronze... The next Finnish bronze generation can't replace golden ones.

 

[FiLe]

So when will that change? Barkov junior and Granlund had skillsets to help in that department in their first Olympic tournament but then again unlike them half of these guys mentioned have so far rebelled against the U-something coaching staff... Not exactly same kind of already mature characters ready to step right in.

Most of said guys are also U20 World Champions.

So let's get this straight... what you're basically saying is that the new kids on the rink can never be as good as the old greats, because they're not as humble in nature as Koivu, Selänne and co were - damn their actual talent. (Not to mention that they're still growing up.) Next you're probably going to tell 'em to get off your damn lawn.

Silver, bronze, bronze... The next Finnish bronze generation can't replace golden ones.

Not that the supposed "golden" generation was all that golden to begin with, if we're to use that as the defining feature.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Not that the supposed "golden" generation was all that golden to begin with, if we're to use that as the defining feature.

Well these are those 'world champions' you seem to hold great respect towards and I would say Finland wasn't that far from the Olympic gold in 1994 or 2006. During their prime time.

It's incredible to think bunch of schoolboys have in minds of some already replaced generation that included more than enough NHL greats when some of these guys are drafted into this modern world 15th overall+... 41 points in the NHL is so far the highest point total for this next batch.

 

[FiLe]

Well these are those 'world champions' you seem to hold great respect towards and I would say Finland wasn't that far from the Olympic gold in 1994 or 2006. During their prime time.

What about the so-called "rock bottom" generation of the 80s? Incidentally, they have brought home a men's world title too. And even if these new kids may (at least for now) be on the different ballpark than the previous "golden" generation, their ceiling is still projected higher than the last bunch of chumps who actually won something.

 

[IceHockeyDude]

I wonder how many prospects we need to make Tulipunaruusu see that the way we are heading in finnish hockey is very promising. 10 first picks of the first rounds?

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

I wonder how many prospects we need to make Tulipunaruusu see that the way we are heading in finnish hockey is very promising.

Is Finnish hockey really heading anywhere? Finnish teams recently have had one great goaltender and good tactical coaching to limit what is lost on elsewhere. In that talent there is also great wrath hidden that could disguise the whole Finnish icehockey machine as something that it really isn't. Great at creating and making individuals.

Granlund brothers were raised on street ball games, Ristolainen grew up right next to a ground with both football and icehockey capabilities (all year long), Teräväinen made that past into his future, Barkov junior spend some time on outer ice even during his draft year... These players pretty much had the perfect individual training background.

Yet the only proven NHL elite talent we have (so far) is Barkov junior, son of a Soviet immigrant. Like Eremenkos in Finnish football, I think it says a lot about Finnish youth hockey. Tulipunaruusu wouldn't just wait to celebrate the current situation at the nearest agora.

 

[FiLe]

Granlund brothers were raised on street ball games, Ristolainen grew up right next to a ground with both football and icehockey capabilities (all year long), Teräväinen made that past into his future, Barkov junior spend some time on outer ice even during his draft year... These players pretty much had the perfect individual training background.

Yet the only proven NHL elite talent we have (so far) is Barkov junior, son of a Soviet immigrant. Like Eremenkos in Finnish football, I think it says a lot about Finnish youth hockey. Tulipunaruusu wouldn't just wait to celebrate the current situation at the nearest agora.

Now you're obviously just arguing because you don't want to admit you were dead wrong.

We don't actually even have to wait for the future to see that we're pretty much in the same situation as we was with the past "greats". Granlund's position in the Wild right now is highly comparable to that of Koivu's in the Habs when he was in his early 20s. And he has already taken up that "leading playmaker" mantle in the NT as well, since he was pretty much our most important forward in Sochi. And to top it off, we now have double the kids who can achieve that same status if need be, starting from Barkov, going through Teräväinen and ending with Markus Granlund - with more who have the same potential. Back then, Saku was pretty much all we had.

You can also pretty much draw direct comparisons from Määttä, Vatanen and Ristolainen to Timonen and Salo when they were still fresh faces. Heck, one could argue that they're ahead.

And goalies... yeah, no need to go there. We're far better off than we were back then.

Only thing we're really missing as of right now is a new Selänne. But then again, Teemu was something special to begin with. However, what we do have is a handful of players who are still better than the "next best guy" from the days of the Flash in his prime.

It's not a question of whether we can in the future round up individuals who could make up a team as good as the one we had in Turin, for example. We already know that we do. It's all about the question of whether they can be even better. That, as of right now, remains to be seen.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Markus Granlund Superstar... This kind of borderline NHL drivel won't just do when you look at Finnish Olympic teams who previously benefited from having legendary to elite players in the group. I don't even know why people want to focus on hang-around members. They won't change anyone's fortunes even if they forge out NHL careers.

Mikael Granlund is also yet to dominate the best foreign league outside the NHL and lead the NHL scoring race by winter - something that separates good with exceptional. Granlunds from Koivus. Other countries, actually have these exceptional players to work with.

You can also pretty much draw direct comparisons from Määttä, Vatanen and Ristolainen to Timonen and Salo when they were still fresh faces. Heck, one could argue that they're ahead.

One could also remember that 1995 and 2015 are two completely different eras. Strong SM-liiga versus weak Liiga to begin with. Nothing but domination will do for Laine and Puljujärvi this season if you guys want to keep talking about the next big Finnish difference makers.

 

[FiLe]

Markus Granlund Superstar... This kind of borderline NHL drivel won't just do when you look at Finnish Olympic teams who previously benefited from having legendary to elite players in the group. I don't even know why people want to focus on hang-around members. They won't change anyone's fortunes even if they forge out NHL careers.

I'd be quite surprised if MaG didn't carve at least a career akin to Niko Kapanen, who was pretty much deemed the 3rd best centerman of the "golden" generation, behind Koivu and Jokinen.

Mikael Granlund is also yet to dominate the best foreign league outside the NHL and lead the NHL scoring race by winter - something that separates good with exceptional. Granlunds from Koivus. Other countries, actually have these exceptional players to work with.

Now you're moving the goalposts. The point of this topic is not to compare Finland's competitiveness against other countries, it's to compare Finland's competitiveness ca. year 2000 opposed to that of year 2020, and try to figure which one ends up impressing more.


Allow me to demonstrate, with a little thought experiment:

Scenario #1. I'm Hannu Aravirta. It's the early 2000s. I'm given the task to put together the best possible Team Finland. All players are in full health and available.

Miikka Kiprusoff (Pasi Nurminen)

Kimmo Timonen - Sami Salo
Janne Niinimaa - Teppo Numminen
Aki-Petteri Berg - Toni Lydman

Jere Lehtinen - Saku Koivu - Teemu Selänne
Ville Peltonen - Olli Jokinen - Sami Kapanen
Niklas Hagman - Niko Kapanen - Jukka Hentunen
Ville Nieminen - Raimo Helminen - Jarkko Ruutu


Scenario #2. I'm Lauri Marjamäki. The year is 2020. I'm given the task to put together the best possible Team Finland. All players are healthy and available.

However, I do NOT have a crystal ball, so I can only use players who have already made some name for themselves. No projections, meaning I won't insert names like Puljujärvi, Laine (22 at the time), or even Kapanen or Rantanen (24 at the time). The youngest player I will use is Barkov (25 at the time).

Also, I don't know which players will have retired by then. While it's possible that players like Mikko Koivu (37 at the time) or Valtteri Filppula (36 at the time) will still be playing, I can't say for sure. So I'm only going to use guys who are younger than 35 at the time, because I can safely assume they will still be doing rounds on the professional level.

Tuukka Rask (Joni Ortio)

Olli Määttä - Rasmus Ristolainen
Esa Lindell - Sami Vatanen
Jyrki Jokipakka - Petteri Lindbohm

Mikael Granlund - Jori Lehterä - Teemu Pulkkinen
Joonas Donskoi - Aleksander Barkov - Joel Armia
Markus Granlund - Teuvo Teräväinen - Teemu Hartikainen
Leo Komarov - Erik Haula - Iiro Pakarinen


So, is "Team 2000" going to sweep "Team 2020" out of the water? Lol nope. They're pretty even, actually.

Now, I'll let each of you to complete the experiment. Imagine what "Team 2020" will look like if just a few of the top prospects born past that 1995 cutoff date will grow up to their full potential...

...I pretty much imagine it will be the best Team Finland we've ever seen.