Lars Eller - The Adventure Continues...

[Soltantgris]

If you measure physicality by hits, sure. But that's a very narrow definition of physicality.

Exact. No ''hit'' in Soccer, still, some players are playing a very physical game.

 

[Andy]

Exact. No ''hit'' in Soccer, still, some players are playing a very physical game.

Not to mention that if that is the definition of physicality, he led forwards in hits in 2013-2014, and was second for forwards in hits in 2012-2013 after Prust.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

If you measure physicality by hits, sure. But that's a very narrow definition of physicality.

Well, the person I quoted said 'hit players':

Its illegal to hit players when your team has the puck, thats why Eller doesnt have many hits.

He's still wrong, that simple. His linemates hit more and it isn't 'illegal'

Eller is not a big time physical player though. The habs have a small top 6 who barely hit.

I never said Eller isn't physical at all. I just called out a poster making excuses as to why he doesn't hit.

IMO Eller is more physical than many guys in our top 6 but I maintain my point:

He's not that physical(which isn't the end of the world).

Habs aren't a punishing hockey team. For many years we lacked(and still do) a physical winger in the top 6. Why do you think people are excited about McCarron who may turn out to be a complimentary physical winger on the top 6 if all goes well?

 

[Andy]

I never said Eller isn't physical at all.

I never said you did. I said if you define physicality as hitting ability, then yeah, Eller wasn't that physical last season, but it's a narrow definition of physicality. The fact that you responded to a discussion about hitting ability by then refering to a player's physicality, you're suggesting that the two are one in the same. For this reason, I disagree with you.

I just called out a poster making excuses as to why he doesn't hit.

So he's talking about excuses for hitting and you're talking about Eller's physicality. Seems like you responded to his apples with oranges.

IMO Eller is more physical than many guys in our top 6 but I maintain my point:

Well, that's much different than saying this:

He's not that physical(which isn't the end of the world)

If physicality is measured in hits, then yeah, he wasn't physical last season. But in 2013-2014 he led forwards in hits and was second only to Prust in 2012-2013 for hits by forwards.

I guess the question we should ask is how come Eller's hits dropped so dramatically last season compared to the previous two? Or, is the fact that they dropped even significant and worthy of mention?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Lets put him on the block and see how many Western teams jump at the chance of getting him. He is a good player that has had a revolving door of line mates and roles on this team. He is not favored by his coach like some on the team but the funny thing is that when there are tough situations he is often the guy asked to jump over the boards. Own zone faceoffs and killing time on the clock are his specialty, we are better with my avatar but some of you just don't get hockey.

As I've said in the past, I'm more than a little surprised that he signed up with us again. Therrien has done tremendous damage to his career.

We need a clear cut number 1... yes.

However its not desharnais fault he's thrust into a role that management hasn't properly filled.

It's not Desharnais' fault that he's used as a number one... that's absolutely true. You can't blame the butter knife for not being able to cut the steak.

As far as mgmt not being able to properly fill the role... we don't really know. And the reason we don't know is because other players who are clearly better haven't been given the chance to fill it. What's indisputable is that we have better players playing lesser roles behind a well below average player. And that is the fault of management (mostly the coach.)

To quote Monty Brewster, "none of the above".

Love that movie.

DD's ESP/60 without Max is .5 higher than Eller's ESP/60 over the last 5 years.

That's because his usage is sheltered even when he doesn't play with Max. Only Galchenyuk comes close and he started in the league at 18.

I distinctly recall Eller having a good playoffs despite not putting up points. I also remember many acknowledging so even beyond on HFboards.

He was really solid. No linemates though...

Eller is not better than Desharnais

I'm still shocked when people write this...

He's much, much better. As is Pleks and Galchenyuk...

People here are so blindly hating MT and DD that they THINK that montreal is the only team in the league where their 3rd line center is better than their 1st.

Montreal probably is the only team in the league where the 3rd line center is better than the first. Why do you think DD and MT get so much hate?

You sure others are the ones who are blind here? You really think DD is a better player than any of those other guys? Not even close. We just shelter the ever living crap out of him.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I replied to this earlier... don't see it. Maybe it got lost in cyberspace somewhere.

I see it just fine. I compared two bottom 6 players over last 2 years, both of which got top 6 time on occasion. Weise destroys him in P/60 and everyone knows Eller is the better player. That's why certain metrics can point you in a direction but we need to stop and think if they make sense too. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I consider Eller's 'breakout' season an outlier.

No **** it's an outlier. It's an outlier because it's the only time we gave him decent opportunities. We continued with the same system and lines at the early part of the following season and Eller did even better.

So why the hell didn't we keep him there? Moreover, why did we change the system the way we did?

I'm not sure how you quantify things but again, he got more ES TOI, more PP TOI, more OZS, better linemates and produced less. He also got more defensive zone starts as well, that's why the OZS% is lower but in raw numbers he had more.

262 OZS in 2013-14 vs 167 in 2012-13.

Shortened season? Of course but when looking at the fundamentals:

30 points in 46 GP vs 26 in 77 GP I mean...

I'm not looking at a PPG here. Eller got more opportunity by the end of the year and failed to recreate anything of that magnitude.

Saying he was in doghouse after 8 games is completely false.

After the Edmonton game(game 9) Eller average 18 minutes a game or so playing with EGG and getting PP time. How is this the doghouse by any stretch of the imagination?

I'm not saying he got preferential treatment or got offensive minutes all year but game 9 and on? really? Over next 5 games:

Game 9 2:49 PP, 0:00 PK TOI (DD 2:16 PP, 0:10 PK) (Plekanec 3:14 PP, 3:06 PK)
Game 10 0:45 PP, 0:32 PK TOI (DD 0:00 PP, 0:00 PK) (Plekanec 1:15 PP, 3:50 PK)
Game 11 4:05 PP, 2:29 PK TOI (DD 1:29 PP, 0:00 PK) (Plekanec 3:25 PP, 3:35 PK)
Game 12 2:09 PP, 0:05 PK TOI (DD 1:01 PP, 0:00 PK) (Plekanec 2:50 PP, 1:15 PK)
Game 13 1:12 PP, 0:15 PK TOI (DD 0:02 PP, 0:00 PK) (Plekanec 1:09 PP, 0:48 PK)

How is this doghouse usage? He barely even played PK!

He was called out after the Edmonton game and in the following game played about 15 mins. He had some penalty time that game but his ice was still cut. As for your assertion that the EGG line was still together, that's not really the case. It was used here and there for the next few games but never really kept. And somewhere around the 15 game mark we switched to our defensive shell and our play dropped off a cliff. Not coincidentally Eller became glued to the 3rd line. It's not a surprise at all as to why his production dropped. Gallagher went to the first line and was replaced by Prust. Pleks had Gionta and Bourque to work with. DD became the exploitive center and sucked up all the offensive minutes. In 2014-15 Pleks at least had better offensive opportunities and Eller became the go to defensive assignment guy entirely.

Edit: Actually I need to correct this... I'm mixing up 2015 with 2014 because Pleks did handle a lot of the checking assignments in 2014. Pleks was the primary checker. Still, the opportunity for the other lines did drastically change when we switched over. And the new style of play didn't help anyone either.

 

[Kriss E]

Other sites usually list things at around 30-45% for ozone and dzone. They don't list neutral zone starts, but if you look at another site you add ozone + dzone and it doesn't add up to 100... the remainder is Neutral zone starts.

Hockey Reference takes out the neutral zone starts and just looks at ozone or dzone. So the numbers are higher for both.

So you use a site that knowingly removes a part of the data to argue your point??..

It makes no sense, and Eller did not get 57% of Ozone. He was used a checking center not an exploitation one.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

3 points getting mostly garbage deployment and being tasked with going against the oppositions top players. The 3 points was low, sure, lets look at how the players tasked with scoring goals did:
Patch 7 pts
Gally 5 pts
Plek 4 pts
Chucky 4 pts
Davey 3 pts
Weise 3 pts

Other than Patch, they werent really much better than Eller all things considered.

Last playoffs, Eller routinely worked over the opposing D deep in their zone after getting the puck up ice. He made some great plays that weren't capitalized on by his linemates.

He had a great playoffs, just not a lot of points.

Eller did everything but score last playoffs. he was our 2nd best forward next to Gally. Dude worked his arse off and created a lot of solid opportunities. Do people even watch him?

 

[cajmonkey]

He's not a physical player nor do I expect him to be.

He's actually a very physical player, he just doesn't record "hits" on a score sheet.

He bumps guys off the puck, he doesn't smash them, so his hits looks low.

 

[DAChampion]

Eller's playoff points were low in part due to Brandon Prust continuously fanning on the nice passes he got from Eller.

 

[groovejuice]

Eller's playoff points were low in part due to Brandon Prust continuously fanning on the nice passes he got from Eller.

Absolutely. Prust brought many skills to the team, but a nose for the net was the least among them.

 

[Milhouse40]

Eller's deployment in the 2015 playoffs had 57.9% offensive zone starts....

Can we stop with the "he didn't score points cause of his deployment"?

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/e/ellerla01.html

Well, NHL.com got Eller at 32.04% of Offensive zone start
That place Eller at #78 out 0f 88 center who played at least 4 games in the PO.

I would called that being drown in his own zone.

Remember....Therrien got challenged live about the defensive usage of Eller.
It was THAT obvious....

Therrien.

That or, when you're a puck possession monster like Eller, you don't need to hit much.

Not really, he's not used as an energy line has he was in previous years....2-way, shutdown role....can't take himself out of the game with those responsabilities.

Same goes for Subban actually...did you see him give big hits this years like he was doing in previous years?

 

[Nynja*]

Remember....Therrien got challenged live about the defensive usage of Eller.
It was THAT obvious....

By a member of the french media too, a critical piece of information.

 

[Compile]

Weird, the guys he played with: DLR, Weise, Prust managed to do plenty of illegal plays then.

OR

He's not that physical(which isn't the end of the world).

Or maybe he doesn't need to "hit" players to separate them from the puck as he's usually the only forward that supports the d....

 

[Brainiac]

As I've said in the past, I'm more than a little surprised that he signed up with us again. Therrien has done tremendous damage to his career.

And why do you think he signed, then?

Had he really wanted out, he could have went on with the arbitration process.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I replied to this earlier... don't see it. Maybe it got lost in cyberspace somewhere.

No **** it's an outlier. It's an outlier because it's the only time we gave him decent opportunities. We continued with the same system and lines at the early part of the following season and Eller did even better.

So why the hell didn't we keep him there? Moreover, why did we change the system the way we did?

How did he do 'even better'? His PPG was at best equal to that of 2012-13 while being gifted more opportunities and better wingers.

Why didn't we keep him there? He started first 20 games as a top 6 C and faded out but still kept occasional PP time and Galchenyuk.

He was called out after the Edmonton game and in the following game played about 15 mins. He had some penalty time that game but his ice was still cut.

He played 15 minutes because he got no SH TOI. He played more at ES than Plekanec and more at PP than DD. He lost TOI because he got 4 min penalty and didn't play a second on the PK which he usually does.

That game:

Plekanec

ES TOI: 11:52
PP TOI: 3:14
SH TOI: 3:06
Total: 18:12
0 PIM

Desharnais:

ES TOI: 14:13
PP TOI: 2:16
SH TOI: 0:10
Total: 16:39
0 PIM

Eller:

ES TOI: 12:53
PP TOI: 2:49
SH TOI: 0:00
Total: 15:42
4 PIM

The next games show Eller getting favorable minutes. One game does not make a trend and even then all he missed was SH TOI and he couldn't play PK because he was the one who took the penalties...

As for your assertion that the EGG line was still together, that's not really the case. It was used here and there for the next few games but never really kept.

EGG was considered the primary line of Eller during the games we are discussing (10-14)

http://www.cs.unb.ca/~mwf/habs/2013-14/regseason/forw_81LE.html

If you look at the details they are seen together for 11-12-13-14 minutes per game. When you consider Gallagher and Galchenyuk don't play PK and that no one plays 100% of the game together(line changes) that's pretty much not 'here and there'.

And somewhere around the 15 game mark we switched to our defensive shell and our play dropped off a cliff. Not coincidentally Eller became glued to the 3rd line. It's not a surprise at all as to why his production dropped.

Interesting that he became glued to the 3rd line:

Game 20: 21:20
Game 19: 20:31
Game 18: 18:30
Game 17: 18:15
Game 16: 19:06
Game 15: 16:48

That's a ******** of minutes for someone glued to the 3rd line.

Oh, his most frequent linemates?

Game 20: Galchenyuk-Eller-Prust
Game 19: EGG
Game 18: EGG
Game 17: EGG
Game 16: Mix (Bourque-Eller-Leblanc + others)
Game 15: Mix (EGG+ others)

Gallagher went to the first line and was replaced by Prust.

Gallagher only went to 1st line after game 21. This is a far from your previously listed date of game 9 and on where he was in the 'doghouse'.

Pleks had Gionta and Bourque to work with. DD became the exploitive center and sucked up all the offensive minutes. In 2014-15 Pleks at least had better offensive opportunities and Eller became the go to defensive assignment guy entirely.

Desharnais

Game 21: 0:52 PP TOI, 18:29 TOI, 0 PTS
Game 22: 2:47 PP TOI, 15:19 TOI, 2 PTS
Game 23: 4:14 PP TOI, 16:15 TOI, 1 PT
Game 24: 2:58 PP TOI, 16:32 TOI, 0 PTS
Game 25: 4:55 PP TOI, 16:48 TOI, 2 PTS

Eller

Game 21: 1:52 PP TOI, 16:20 TOI, 0 PTS
Game 22: 1:41 PP TOI, 18:44 TOI, 0 PTS
Game 23: 2:37 PP TOI, 15:38 TOI, 0 PTS
Game 24: 1:52 PP TOI, 15:40 TOI, 0 PTS
Game 25: 0:59 PP TOI, 14:14 TOI, 1 PT

When Eller got the type of usage DD got (say, games 9-13 as we previously discussed) apparently he was in the 'doghouse'(which I completely disagree with. Somehow DD had full exploit minutes and Eller playing 4 minutes on PP is seen as doghouse.)

Game 9 2:49 PP, 19:13 TOI, 0 PTS
Game 10 0:45 PP, 15:42 TOI, 0 PTS
Game 11 4:05 PP, 17:50 TOI, 0 PTS
Game 12 2:09 PP, 19:42 TOI, 1 PT
Game 13 1:12 PP, 17:23 TOI, 0 PTS

 

[Nynja*]

Oh no, Eller went on a slump, and now youre cherry picking those games as the norm.

Did you know that even croaby, ovie and stamkos go into slumps?

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Oh no, Eller went on a slump, and now youre cherry picking those games as the norm.

Did you know that even croaby, ovie and stamkos go into slumps?

I picked the games LG choose to represent Eller's doghouse. I also chose the games after DD was given back his role.

They aren't strange dates.

I never picked them as the norm. I never said they were the norm.

 

[Nynja*]

So he slumped, he got taken off his role...was put with scrubs who cant score goals, and never got to back to his spot, therefor he failed.

Meanwhile someone else slumps, gets demoted for 10 games, and gets bumped up cuz of a shootout goal.

 

[LastWordArmy]

So you use a site that knowingly removes a part of the data to argue your point??..

It makes no sense, and Eller did not get 57% of Ozone. He was used a checking center not an exploitation one.

Yes, cause neutral zone starts are no where near as relevant as offensive vs defensive zone.

 

[Nynja*]

Youre saying eller started in the ozone more than dzone? Im pretty sure even the biggest eller haters would question that stat.

 

[LastWordArmy]

Youre saying eller started in the ozone more than dzone? Im pretty sure even the biggest eller haters would question that stat.

Keep in mind too, that montreal was winning the possession battle (but not scoring goals) in many of their 2015 playoff games. This could create a situation where the entire team was taking more offensive zone draws then defensive zone ones. Its very rare in a hockey game that the number of offensive and defensive zone draws is exactly equal.

But if you still don't believe the stat, then write an angry letter to hockey reference and argue with them over the stats they keep.

They have been a pretty reputable site over the years, I have no reason not to trust the stat.

But hey, maybe there is a typo in their database and they'll correct it if you ask, I don't know how they run the thing.

All I know is that is the stat they have for eller's playoffs...

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Youre saying eller started in the ozone more than dzone? Im pretty sure even the biggest eller haters would question that stat.

Then write an angry letter to hockey reference and argue with them over the stats they keep.

They have been a pretty reputable site over the years, I have no reason not to trust the stat.

But hey, maybe there is a typo in their database and they'll correct it, I don't know

I'm not an Eller hater(unless people want to label me as one) but I definitely question it.

I understand some numbers are 5 on 5 and some numbers are more general but it seems like something is different.

I know Hockeyanalysis doesn't include some TOI and some points in particular situations but not sure how I feel about it being that off. I'm sure Hockey reference's numbers are accurate but their criteria is different. I'd like to know the criteria if possible!

 

[LyricalLyricist]

So he slumped, he got taken off his role...was put with scrubs who cant score goals, and never got to back to his spot, therefor he failed.

You should read the history. Lafleur's guy suggested Eller was in the 'doghouse' game 8 and on. There is evidence to support the contrary and it wasn't like he was on fire either. MT stuck with him in his role.

It was only after game 20 that DD got his role back and his first 5 games seem a lot like Eller's "doghouse" games. One is seen as super exploit, the other is seen as doghouse with same minutes...

In the end it also shows Eller retained some PP time and a skilled linemate as well. Eller just didn't maintain the level of play consistently.

 

[Nynja*]

Thats why there are multiple sources that track this data, and when something seems off, you verify with another source.

Presuming you watched atleast 20 games, did you at no point question the validity of that stat based on what you saw?