Lars Eller: Cult of Eller Edition

[Rosso Scuderia]

Why would playoff stats not be relevant? I've literally never said that.

Dude, I show you their playoffs stats and you said I cherry-picked. Usually when you accused someone of cherry-picking stats, it means that his stats are irrelevant and doesn't mean anything.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Do you even know what cherrypicking stats means? Also, I think comparig their stats is completely stupid because they're in two completely different roles. You'll notice I never compared their stats, only you and others did. It doesn't take away from the fact that simply removing a set of stats from a player in order to facilitate a comparison makes no sense.



It doesn't make sense and will never make sense to compare the production of two players in entirely different roles, especially when you remove an entire set of their points.

reality : your mind is set on what Eller is and no matter what people use as stats you'll just any possible excuse and act as if the facts brought up to you dont exist.

 

[Tourist]

Are you seriously putting up an argument that playing with Pacioretty makes it harder to score because you play against better defensive players?

That goes completely against any recorded evidence from the past 3 seasons. Players that play with Pacioretty see their offense explode because he is just that good of a hockey player. The marginal increase in opposition quality is completely overshadowed by the benefit of the far superior linemate.

That is not the argument I am making. Some are quick to bring up the good side of having a top offensive role, like playing with better linemates or having more offensive zone starts. But when you play that role you also play against better defenders and need to deal with more pressure on your shoulders to put up points. In the end you will score more points, of course, but how much more?

Who are those players who's stats exploded? Weise? Gallagher? Parenteau? Plekanec? Was this dramatic increased production you refer to sustained or sustainable for an entire season? Weise is a serviceable player who did quite well for a bit on Pacioretty RW but in the end wasn't good enough to be a permanent solution there. Because it's hard to play game in game out, for an entire 82 game schedule, against the best defensive players in the world and with the added pressure to put up points. That's what makes guys like Pacioretty so great and DD, well, not so great lol. Not saying Eller couldn't do it. I'm saying it's hard to say because he's never been put in this position and isn't exactly this all world talent who's dominated in his current role.

 

[ECWHSWI]

That is not the argument I am making. Some are quick to bring up the good side of having a top offensive role, like playing with better linemates or having more offensive zone starts. But when you play that role you also play against better defenders and need to deal with more pressure on your shoulders to put up points. In the end you will score more points, of course, but how much more?

Who are those players who's stats exploded? Weise? Gallagher? Parenteau? Plekanec? Was this dramatic increased production you refer to sustained or sustainable for an entire season? Weise is a serviceable player who did quite well for a bit on Pacioretty RW but in the end wasn't good enough to be a permanent solution there. Because it's hard to play game in game out, for an entire 82 game schedule, against the best defensive players in the world and with the added pressure to put up points. That's what makes guys like Pacioretty so great and DD, well, not so great lol. Not saying Eller couldn't do it. I'm saying it's hard to say because he's never been put in this position and isn't exactly this all world talent who's dominated in his current role.

just think about the bolded for a few sec and ask yourself what logical reason there is not to try it.

 

[Nynja*]

Stop cherry picking stats to make Eller look better!!
You have to include Davey's PP production to inflate his total production even though Eller never gets any PP time. If you're not, you're cherry picking stats.


Its actually mindblowing how absurd that statement is.

 

[Sorinth]

No, it doesn't make sense man. These players are all playing different roles... it makes no sense to compare their stats directly, especially when you simply remove a whole set of statistics like powerplay points.

I'd also like to know the information behind those powerplay stats you threw up, like what time period they were from and the ice time behind them, among other things. Even if Eller was better for a period of time on the powerplay, clearly the coaching staff doesn't see him as a worthy candidate for the powerplay.

Saying things like "Eller is ahead of Gallagher, slightly below Pacioretty" is exactly why those of you who overrate Eller sound so out to lunch, by the way.

Playing different roles is exactly why we remove the PP points. You know so we don't compare their stats directly. Instead we compare the subset that mostly overlaps which is the non PP time.

And really how is playing a different role an excuse, everything role related should boost Desharnais points, and reduce Ellers. So when we compare them there should be such a huge difference in points that it tells us nothing. The fact that there isn't a big difference is what's telling.

The PP time was from the 2012-2013 season to 2014-2015 including playoffs. Eller's P/60 on the PP is better than Gallagher's, if you think pointing out facts is overating a player then you are the one whose out to lunch.

And this is the same coaching staff who thought Subban was a defensive liability, the same coaching staff that thought Bouillon and Diaz were better then Subban. Forgive me if I don't take their opinion as gospel.

 

[Sorinth]

reality : your mind is set on what Eller is and no matter what people use as stats you'll just any possible excuse and act as if the facts brought up to you dont exist.

We saw it in the playoffs when Eller was leading the forwards in points.

They said it was only because Desharnais was opening up space for him by attracting all the good defensive players. So you see all of Eller's production is actually the result of Davey's greatness. It's sad really.

 

[Tourist]

just think about the bolded for a few sec and ask yourself what logical reason there is not to try it.

I think it's because Therrien doesn't believe Eller to be much better than DD offensively. It's not a far-fetched proposition, as many believe they are more or less the same offensively.

But Eller is clearly better suited for defensive assignments due to his size and physical abilities. So assuming, like the coach, that Eller and DD are more or less the same offensively, if you give Eller DD's minutes, then the player filling Eller's important "shutdown center who provides secondary scoring" role will surely be inferior. Therrien probably feels it would be a net loss for the team.

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

I think it's because Therrien doesn't believe Eller to be much better than DD offensively. It's not a far-fetched proposition, as many believe they are more or less the same offensively.

But Eller is clearly better suited for defensive assignments due to his size and physical abilities. So assuming, like the coach, that Eller and DD are more or less the same offensively, if you give Eller DD's minutes, then the player filling Eller's important "shutdown center who provides secondary scoring" role will surely be inferior. Therrien probably feels it would be a net loss for the team.

This is a reasonable argument.

However, Montreal has followed this strategy for the bulk of the past 4 seasons. The results are fairly clear that Montreal is a much better offensive team when they attempt to get production from all 3 forward lines than when they focus so hard on boosting the line centered by Desharnais that they become a 1 line scoring team. Building everything around getting Pacioretty-Desharnais-Best RW to score has been tried and found to be a losing long-term strategy. Its a fancy way to put everything on Price to save them.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I think it's because Therrien doesn't believe Eller to be much better than DD offensively. It's not a far-fetched proposition, as many believe they are more or less the same offensively.

But Eller is clearly better suited for defensive assignments due to his size and physical abilities. So assuming, like the coach, that Eller and DD are more or less the same offensively, if you give Eller DD's minutes, then the player filling Eller's important "shutdown center who provides secondary scoring" role will surely be inferior. Therrien probably feels it would be a net loss for the team.

fair points,

but at the same time, when the two players are more or less the same offensively what should determine who's ahead of the other is the other aspects like physical play, defense, FO%, etc...

and in most of these aspects Eller is the better player : bigger and stronger, hit more (although not a lot), FO% is fine, can get defensive assignments if need be and so on...

you could argue we wouldnt have any C to shut down opponents on our 3rd line, but then again, you'd have two guys capable of doing it on the top 6 (Eller and Plekanec) so the need wouldnt be there to begin with.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

You clearly can't accept Eller has offensive potential to outproduce DD and Plekanec...

Not that I necessarily disagree (particularly if we're talking DD, and then doubly so if we're talking playoffs), having said that, no evidence - tangible or intangible - proves that he actually does, which puts this in the "belief" category, and not "fact".

 

[DAChampion]

Not that I necessarily disagree (particularly if we're talking DD, and then doubly so if we're talking playoffs), having said that, no evidence - tangible or intangible - proves that he actually does, which puts this in the "belief" category, and not "fact".

You are correct, which is part of why I hope Therrien experiments this year.

 

[Lions999]

fair points,

but at the same time, when the two players are more or less the same offensively what should determine who's ahead of the other is the other aspects like physical play, defense, FO%, etc...

and in most of these aspects Eller is the better player : bigger and stronger, hit more (although not a lot), FO% is fine, can get defensive assignments if need be and so on...

you could argue we wouldnt have any C to shut down opponents on our 3rd line, but then again, you'd have two guys capable of doing it on the top 6 (Eller and Plekanec) so the need wouldnt be there to begin with.

We need to go with galchenyuk Eller Pleks and DLR as our centers...our shut down centers are Pleks and DLR...DLR will be awesome shut down center in his career. He will replace Pleks after next season as our 3rd center.

 

[Rapala]

There are only a handful of forwards on this team we can consider as core.
Lars Eller is one of them.
He has NEVER been the issue on this club.
If you aren't honest enough to acknowledge Eller's contribution and recognize he is our best possesion player except for maybe PK, and has shown to be one of the few able to enter the zone with the puck. You haven't been paying attention to detail. The fact that his strengths have not been exploited speak directly to a complete lack of imagination at the coaching level. We certainly can't start using him properly now...
It would only highlight our lack of insight in previous years. I can't think of one coach who would have continued to keep this Guy stymied the way MT has. I can't think of a coach less deserving of a player than MT in the case of Eller.

 

[Compile]

Typical cherrypicking stats to capture Eller's brief career hot streaks while simultaneously picking up a few of DD's slumps and omitting his productive periods. This is how the legend of Kostit...I mean Eller nourishes itself.

Leads to the whinge of:
BUT 3 MONTHS LATER

- Desharnais is centering Pacioretty and Vanek

A line combo was dynamite down the stretch.

And completely absent for that playoff run, and continued into the following playoffs.

 

[Nynja*]

Showing that Ellers production at 5v5 is better than Daveys is "cherry picking" stats because it doesnt include Daveys contributions to the powerplay...tell us again how great the powerplay has been the past 2 years, we need a reminder.

 

[Compile]

Do you even know what cherrypicking stats means? Also, I think comparig their stats is completely stupid because they're in two completely different roles. You'll notice I never compared their stats, only you and others did. It doesn't take away from the fact that simply removing a set of stats from a player in order to facilitate a comparison makes no sense.



It doesn't make sense and will never make sense to compare the production of two players in entirely different roles, especially when you remove an entire set of their points.

Fail on epic levels.
Eller produces slightly less playing with grinders.
DD produces slightly more with TOP 6 wingers.

Eller has no offense.
DD has offense.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

Do you even know what cherrypicking stats means? Also, I think comparig their stats is completely stupid because they're in two completely different roles. You'll notice I never compared their stats, only you and others did. It doesn't take away from the fact that simply removing a set of stats from a player in order to facilitate a comparison makes no sense.



It doesn't make sense and will never make sense to compare the production of two players in entirely different roles, especially when you remove an entire set of their points.

So you say Eller can't match DD and Plekanec production if given the same role and when we prove you that Eller can already match their production, at even strength for a whole year, we show that he can outproduce them in the playoffs and now comparing stats between players is stupid..

So how the hell do you know Eller can't get 45 pts seasons with Pacioretty. You can have your opinion but at least use some arguments to back it up instead of calling our arguments of points comparaison stupid.

It is kinda unfair for Eller to compare his stats against two centers that plays with with 20-37 goals scorer.. yet Eller fares pretty well against them at even strength. So that should actually show that Eller is not that bad offensively and deserve more recognition instead of saying stats are meaningless because they don't play the same role.

You sound like a guy that can't accept that you could be wrong.

 

[ECWHSWI]

We need to go with galchenyuk Eller Pleks and DLR as our centers...our shut down centers are Pleks and DLR...DLR will be awesome shut down center in his career. He will replace Pleks after next season as our 3rd center.

No coach would be stupid enough to use a guy who just got 60 points as his 3rd line C.

Not even MT.

 

[Big Lurk]

We need to go with galchenyuk Eller Pleks and DLR as our centers...our shut down centers are Pleks and DLR...DLR will be awesome shut down center in his career. He will replace Pleks after next season as our 3rd center.

53 players hit 60 pts last year. Not Iginla, Marleau, Backes. But yet you would probably trade Plekanec+ for one of them, knowing heavy defensive usage of Tomas. He is not the problem. He is just so unsexy. I would trade

 

[pepperMonkey]

Eller is ahead of Desharnais, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, slightly below Pacioretty. You said there was no proof that Eller could produce on the PP, yet there it is in black and white. Eller is one of our better PP producers.

Sorry, just trying to clarify. Are you saying Eller is the 2nd best offensive forward on this team? Or are you talking strictly about PP?

 

[JohnLennon]

Not that I necessarily disagree (particularly if we're talking DD, and then doubly so if we're talking playoffs), having said that, no evidence - tangible or intangible - proves that he actually does, which puts this in the "belief" category, and not "fact".

Exactly. The reason this thread is so embarrassing is because it is all based off speculation, and too many people pumping up Eller to the point where he is vastly overrated. In this thread, you'll see people say Eller is better than: Galchenyuk, Plekanec, Desharnais, Gallagher, and every other forward on the team except Pacioretty. Even then, someone mentioned he's only "slightly" worse than Pacioretty. Come on.

No one will argue that Eller isn't good, or that he's reached his potential and has no room to grow, but this thread is basically working off pure speculation, ignoring Eller's struggles and using the highlights of his career as a reason as to why he is better than our top players. Another good one is that anyone who doesn't agree that Eller is the second best forward on the team is seen as a Desharnais supporter. Once I saw that people actually believed that Eller was better than guys like Plekanec, Galchenyuk and Gallagher, and only a little behind Pacioretty, I knew this thread really deserved the name "Cult of Eller".

 

[ECWHSWI]

Exactly. The reason this thread is so embarrassing is because it is all based off speculation, and too many people pumping up Eller to the point where he is vastly overrated. In this thread, you'll see people say Eller is better than: Galchenyuk, Plekanec, Desharnais, Gallagher, and every other forward on the team except Pacioretty. Even then, someone mentioned he's only "slightly" worse than Pacioretty. Come on.

No one will argue that Eller isn't good, or that he's reached his potential and has no room to grow, but this thread is basically working off pure speculation, ignoring Eller's struggles and using the highlights of his career as a reason as to why he is better than our top players. Another good one is that anyone who doesn't agree that Eller is the second best forward on the team is seen as a Desharnais supporter. Once I saw that people actually believed that Eller was better than guys like Plekanec, Galchenyuk and Gallagher, and only a little behind Pacioretty, I knew this thread really deserved the name "Cult of Eller".

just like you're ignoring anything that portrays Eller not being as bad as you think he is.

 

[JohnLennon]

just like you're ignoring anything that portrays Eller not being as bad as you think he is.

How so? I'd honestly like to see a quote where I EVER said that Eller was remotely bad. That's what's so bad about this thread. Anyone who doesn't agree that Eller is THAT good, is labelled as someone who thinks he's bad. You made a perfect example of that right here.

 

[ECWHSWI]

How so? I'd honestly like to see a quote where I EVER said that Eller was remotely bad. That's what's so bad about this thread. Anyone who doesn't agree that Eller is THAT good, is labelled as someone who thinks he's bad. You made a perfect example of that right here.

thanks for proving my point.


and huh, not many will care that you dislike Eller, you can stop pretending.