Lars Eller: Cult of Eller Edition

[JohnLennon]

thanks for proving my point.


and huh, not many will care that you dislike Eller, you can stop pretending.

Wow, you literally avoided everything I said! I guess we'll chalk that up to your reluctant admission that you definitely won't find that quote of mine saying anything about Eller being bad. I'd also like to see a quote of mine saying I dislike Eller, too, while we're at it. All I've said in this thread is that I don't think he's better than Plekanec, and I don't think he's a top 6 forward right now. That's it! But look at the conclusions you draw...

You're my favorite poster in this thread because you're helping illustrate perfectly that anyone who doesn't think Eller is the best literally "dislikes him" and thinks he's "bad" ...all your words. That's some severe delusion!

 

[ECWHSWI]

Wow, you literally avoided everything I said! I guess we'll chalk that up to your reluctant admission that you definitely won't find that quote of mine saying anything about Eller being bad. I'd also like to see a quote of mine saying I dislike Eller, too, while we're at it. All I've said in this thread is that I don't think he's better than Plekanec, and I don't think he's a top 6 forward right now. That's it! But look at the conclusions you draw...

You're my favorite poster in this thread because you're helping illustrate perfectly that anyone who doesn't think Eller is the best literally "dislikes him" and thinks he's "bad" ...all your words. That's some severe delusion!

speaking of quotes, I'm sure you'll have no problem finding a quote with the bolded in it ? right ?


It's OK though, you can keep pretending.

 

[JohnLennon]

speaking of quotes, I'm sure you'll have no problem finding a quote with the bolded in it ? right ?

It's OK though, you can keep pretending.

I was clearly using hyperbole, so I won't find a quote with anyone saying "Eller is the best". Loving how you keep avoiding any proof for your accusations though, just completely avoiding them as if it was never said... Coming from a guy who keeps whining that I'm somehow avoiding proof. Again, show me ANYTHING that indicates I dislike Eller and think he's bad. No? Nothing? I thought so.

As for your second line, you keep repeating "stop pretending" without realizing it makes you sound incredibly immature and only hurts your point, which was already extremely weak.

 

[Nynja*]

How so? I'd honestly like to see a quote where I EVER said that Eller was remotely bad. That's what's so bad about this thread. Anyone who doesn't agree that Eller is THAT good, is labelled as someone who thinks he's bad. You made a perfect example of that right here.

"You guyz have to use daveys PP points against ellers EV points or youre cherry picking stats to make davey look bad, daveys way way better than eller"

Ill be glad to quote all your posts saying the above when i get off mobile.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

Once I saw that people actually believed that Eller was better than guys like Plekanec, Galchenyuk and Gallagher, and only a little behind Pacioretty, I knew this thread really deserved the name "Cult of Eller".

What nonsense.

The consensus of this thread is most certainly NOT that Eller is our 2nd best forward, simply that his prior performances are strongly indicative of him being better than Desharnais.

 

[JohnLennon]

What nonsense.

The consensus of this thread is most certainly NOT that Eller is our 2nd best forward, simply that his prior performances are strongly indicative of him being better than Desharnais.

I agree the consensus is not that he is our second best forward. There were a couple of posters who did agree with this to varying degrees though, and funnily enough they were among the most vocal here. The worst was when a certain poster claimed he was ahead of everyone and only slightly behind Pacioretty. It smells of off-season in here.

Also, I have always maintained that I think Eller is better than Desharnais, and I think that's been very clear.

"You guyz have to use daveys PP points against ellers EV points or youre cherry picking stats to make davey look bad, daveys way way better than eller"

Ill be glad to quote all your posts saying the above when i get off mobile.

Oh man, I would LOVE for you to find the supposed quote where I say "DD is way way better than Eller" because I have been saying all along that I think Eller is the better player. Please find this quote! I look forward to this.

Also important, you still won't find a quote of me saying Eller is bad, which is what your post was supposed to address.

 

[Nynja*]

Then why do you get in a tizzy, accusing people of cherry picking stats when theyre comparing ellers 5v5 production to daveys 5v5 production?

And dont say this never happened because you used the words "cherry pick", or any variant of tense, in atleast 6 different posts.

 

[JohnLennon]

Then why do you get in a tizzy, accusing people of cherry picking stats when theyre comparing ellers 5v5 production to daveys 5v5 production?

I just don't agree with omitting whole sets of statistics, even when knowing Eller so seldomly played the powerplay. I don't think it makes sense to compare players in such different roles... it has nothing to do with defending DD. If anything, it would be defending Plekanec, because I think he is twice the player Eller will ever be.

 

[Miller Time]

I just don't agree with omitting whole sets of statistics, even when knowing Eller so seldomly played the powerplay. I don't think it makes sense to compare players in such different roles... it has nothing to do with defending DD. If anything, it would be defending Plekanec, because I think he is twice the player Eller will ever be.

Did you know that heading into this past season (25 year old season), Eller was considerably ahead of Pleks in games played & points?

This year that changed, though worth mentioning that it coincided with Pleks getting the whole season with kovalev & kost, & that the team as a whole was one of the top scoring teams in the league.

Does Eller put up 70points playing first line minutes & pp time with 2 quality offensively gifted wingers? Probably not, but I suspect he'd show himself to be much better than 1/2 a plekanec...


All any of us have is glimpses... But as small as they are, eller has repeatedly shown that he can produce effectively when given a chance.

 

[Nynja*]

so its unfair to davey if we compare ellers 5v5 production to daveys 5v5 production? Were not even factoring deployment in said 5v5 situations, nor are we comparing quality of linemates...just straight up 5v5 production.

 

[Nynja*]

You just cherry picked stats and used them as a reason he would do well. I can do the same thing with Desharnais and say that in the last 60 games of the season last year, he was one of the top point producers in the entire league. Desharnais has also played 40+ fewer games compared to Eller. Wouldn't you rather a player like that on your top 6? Of course you don't want Desharnais, and that's why you don't cherrypick stats. Eller played in favourable situations many times throughout his career, but has never shown success at a consistent level.

The only justification for that is you cherrypicking his best stats of the past 5 seasons, and even then, you're still exaggerating when you say Eller had better playoff stats in consecutive years.

Not you, but

Typical cherrypicking stats to capture Eller's brief career hot streaks while simultaneously picking up a few of DD's slumps and omitting his productive periods. This is how the legend of Kostit...I mean Eller nourishes itself.

Buddy, there's a reason you can't just take a massive chunk of someone's stats and pretend they don't exist. That's exactly what cherrypicking is, and you did it after saying you wouldn't.

Do you even know what cherrypicking stats means?

Yes I do, cherry picking stats is when you pick X games and using them as your reference point.

You don't have to look at cherry picked dates. Use every game played since Therrien became coach.

Remove the PP points and here's what each center did
Plekanec: 107 points in 245 games
Desharnais: 103 points in 242 games
Eller: 89 points in 230 games

Over an 82 game season that works out to
Plekanec 36
Desharnais 35
Eller 32

Do you honestly think going from 3rd line with Prust/Bourque to a top-6 role with Pacioretty/Gallagher is worth less than 3-4 points?

Please enlighten me, you said Eller has to find a way to produce more, does he actually have to surpass the other two before you think it's possible that Eller would match/outproduce them given the same role?

This is NOT cherry picking. It is using the 5v5 production of these players over the course of the PAST THREE SEASONS. It stands to reason that it actually works in Daveys favor SIMPLY since it doesnt account for TOI, which Davey gets more of than Eller.

And for this supposed hole in my argument; over that same time frame here's the production on the PP per 60min

Plekanec 4.75
Eller 3.57
Desharnais 3.21

This is also NOT cherry picking because it uses the same large sample of games, but counts how many points they get on the powerplay per 60 minutes of usage.

So once again:

Do you even know what cherrypicking stats means?

Do you know what cherrypicking stats means?

Cherry picking would be plucking out Eller's two points from Jan 6 to Mar 5 (26 games) and saying "see, Eller's terrible, he put up 2 points in 26 games". Cherry picking would be plucking Daveys one point through 19 games to start the 2014 season and saying its the norm. Those are examples of cherry picking.

INCLUDING Davey's PP production to his EV production and comparing it to Eller's EV production, that's ALSO cherry picking, because PP TOI != EV TOI. You are SUPPOSED to have better production on the powerplay, and comparing someones PP+EV to someone elses EV is cherry picking.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

It's going to be a long off season. New thread?

 

[Dagenais Bar Down*]

Did you know that heading into this past season (25 year old season), Eller was considerably ahead of Pleks in games played & points?

Not taking anything away from Eller, but statistics like these for non blue-chippers can be just a matter of circumstance. Maybe Plekanec would have jumped in 2004-2005, which likely puts him in the points lead. If Eller wasn't acquired for Halak perhaps he would have gone to Hamilton; however with some physical maturity on his side I am glad he stayed in the NHL.

Steering away from the subject at hand, Plekanec had such an excellent rookie year. You could spot all his strengths right away. Even against Carolina in round 1 he was a stud.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

You don't have to look at cherry picked dates. Use every game played since Therrien became coach.

Remove the PP points and here's what each center did
Plekanec: 107 points in 245 games
Desharnais: 103 points in 242 games
Eller: 89 points in 230 games

Over an 82 game season that works out to
Plekanec 36
Desharnais 35
Eller 32

Do you honestly think going from 3rd line with Prust/Bourque to a top-6 role with Pacioretty/Gallagher is worth less than 3-4 points?

Please enlighten me, you said Eller has to find a way to produce more, does he actually have to surpass the other two before you think it's possible that Eller would match/outproduce them given the same role?

Curious, did you remove SH PTS as well?

 

[Nynja*]

Curious, did you remove SH PTS as well?

Heres what I got from war-on-ice, I'm gonna use Daveys points as a reference

5v5 92
4v4 6
OPP Goalie Pulled 4
MTL Goalie Pulled 4
Shorthanded 0
Leftovers 0

Sorinth had Davey with 103 points, and no combination of those numbers will give me 103?
However, Sorinth has 245 games for Pleks, and war on ice is reporting 244. I'm presuming he did this by hand or he used a different site?


Heres what war-on-ice is reporting for 5v5 (doesnt include 4v4 or empty net situations, wish I could control click multiple situations), screencap'ed

 

[ECWHSWI]

I agree the consensus is not that he is our second best forward. There were a couple of posters who did agree with this to varying degrees though, and funnily enough they were among the most vocal here. The worst was when a certain poster claimed he was ahead of everyone and only slightly behind Pacioretty. It smells of off-season in here.

Also, I have always maintained that I think Eller is better than Desharnais, and I think that's been very clear.



Oh man, I would LOVE for you to find the supposed quote where I say "DD is way way better than Eller" because I have been saying all along that I think Eller is the better player. Please find this quote! I look forward to this.

Also important, you still won't find a quote of me saying Eller is bad, which is what your post was supposed to address.

just like you won't find a single quote of mine saying Eller is the 2nd best or something... yet you had no problem whatsoever using this B.S. in a reply to one of my posts...


so yeah, next time you're about to say something about maturity, delusion and whatnot, do yourself a favor and dont.

especially since you,re the author of "anyone who doesn't think Eller is the best...", so yeah... don't.

 

[Price is Wright]

The thread is now two sides of cherrypickers arguing over who is abusing hyperbole more.

 

[Sterling Archer]

The thread is now two sides of cherrypickers arguing over who is abusing hyperbole more.

i miss the good old days before advanced stats when you could just watch a guy play and see how bad a player was and not have to use a supercomputer to justify that he's actually G.O.A.T.

 

[Price is Wright]

i miss the good old days before advanced stats when you could just watch a guy play and see how bad a player was and not have to use a supercomputer to justify that he's actually G.O.A.T.

I remember when guys used to argue that when they listened to games on the radio, the announcers were never excited about certain players so those players weren't very good.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

i miss the good old days before advanced stats when you could just watch a guy play and see how bad a player was and not have to use a supercomputer to justify that he's actually G.O.A.T.

Yeah, using your opinion as fact must have been fun.

 

[JohnLennon]

Not you, but

Yes I do, cherry picking stats is when you pick X games and using them as your reference point.

This is NOT cherry picking. It is using the 5v5 production of these players over the course of the PAST THREE SEASONS. It stands to reason that it actually works in Daveys favor SIMPLY since it doesnt account for TOI, which Davey gets more of than Eller.

This is also NOT cherry picking because it uses the same large sample of games, but counts how many points they get on the powerplay per 60 minutes of usage.

So once again:

Do you know what cherrypicking stats means?

Cherry picking would be plucking out Eller's two points from Jan 6 to Mar 5 (26 games) and saying "see, Eller's terrible, he put up 2 points in 26 games". Cherry picking would be plucking Daveys one point through 19 games to start the 2014 season and saying its the norm. Those are examples of cherry picking.

INCLUDING Davey's PP production to his EV production and comparing it to Eller's EV production, that's ALSO cherry picking, because PP TOI != EV TOI. You are SUPPOSED to have better production on the powerplay, and comparing someones PP+EV to someone elses EV is cherry picking.

Your post proved nothing and didn't change my opinion. The powerplay points were taken from Eller's best season and the best parts of the next, so how exactly is that not cherrypicking his stats? In the end, I made it clear that I disagree with the comparison. Either way, your post was supposed to prove that I thought Eller was "bad" and disliked him, and you did neither.

The thread is now two sides of cherrypickers arguing over who is abusing hyperbole more.

I think you're right. It feels more like arguing for the sake of arguing, and it might take a personal route. I think I'm out of here.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

The thread is now two sides of cherrypickers arguing over who is abusing hyperbole more.

One side has brought a fairly robust (for a message board) statistical analysis to support its argument that Eller deserves a greater offensive role to see what his actual skill set is.

The other? Not so much.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

One side has brought a fairly robust (for a message board) statistical analysis to support its argument that Eller deserves a greater offensive role to see what his actual skill set is.

The other? Not so much.

Pretty much sums it up as far as I'm concerned.

New thread is up.